Why lots of testers complain about bad aim?

(Anti) #61

With regards to skill gap whenever you look at the range of skill of the population of a game it’s almost certainly going to follow a normal distribution, XT is no different.

Here is ours right now, for hip fired automatic weapons, over the last 1000 games of 4v4 or more.

Histogram.jpg1083×451 161 KB

The guys at the right hand side, in red, are the “pros”, the guys in green, on the left, are the “noobs”, blue is the majority of the population.

The accuracy gap between the average player (lets say a range of 21% to 23%) to the pros (30% plus) is a 5%-8% accuracy difference. We’d maybe like the curve to shallow a bit, so the bottom end of pro is closer to 35% and the top end is around 40%, but we wouldn’t go much higher than that.

The fact that people got 30% to 50% in games like ET and Quake 3 is somewhat irrelevant without the distribution. Chances are in those games (and anecdotal evidence backs this up for me at least) that noobs were getting 20% to 25% accuracy in those games, so the population’s distribution was much like XT’s.

The main question is really not about the skill gap at all then (although I agree with regards to other skill elements, like tactical play on maps and ability usage that our skill gap is currently too small, and we’re looking into that), but rather about how often should the top and bottom ends of the population be hitting to make the game feel good?

Do low skill players feel better if they die the same amount as they do in XT but hit they more often? Or do they prefer to hit less often but kill faster as in CoD and BF4? Do pros prefer to have high accuracy stats but take the same time to kill as we do now?

(Raviolay) #62

[QUOTE=krokodealer;488412]can we for a short period of time set spread to Zero? (make a test merc with this weapon)

i mean. i rly dont know where this feeling of a horrible aim comes from.
from the game performance/netcode/engine or from big spread+small hitboxes.

with this we can find out this once and for all.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about zero, what about delaying the time it starts for the spread to increase and lowering the movement penalty to accuracy in general. I think a lot of the oddity is the hit reg delay that is even apparent with even(ish) low pings. I have lost count of times I have heard canopy of HS beeps (well splodge sound), and a shot to the chest has apparently killed them, only to hear more hit sounds long after I have stopped firing.

I also think a big problem has a lot to do with the few active players there are. This forces you to play against players with pings or with a ping you would never do if there was a larger player base, and I think it skews the data a lot more than people care admit. When playing with 120-160 ping against someone with 25-50, I found I was getting kills without my crosshair being anywhere near the other players body. With even(ish) high pings the hit delay is almost unbearable.

(to me even(ish) is 20-30 ping difference)

Then again I am not in the top 5% so this opinion is bull****.

I think newer players will prefer the hit less and kill faster option, I would of had I not been brainwashed. Now even though I am not that good. I would rather hit more (I still think this is more of a net code issue) with clear hit sounds RE remove the current personal hitsounds to your player as they sound too similar to the headshot hit “beep”.

(Kendle) #63

Looks like Inferno is fighting a lone battle here so have to jump in and agree with him, because I think there’s a lot of this going on here even if people can’t admit it.

Not sure I like the inference that wanting to kill faster makes you “low skill”, but for me personally, and I know it’s largely the opposite of what a lot of people around here want, but the biggest frustration for me as regards gun-play is this:-

beep, beep - beep - beep, beepidy ****ing beep - beep - beep! WTF he still didn’t die?

I think when this game goes open beta there’s going to be a lot more complaints along those lines.

I would like to add though that on a scale of 1 to 10, my frustration with the gun-play is about a 1, whereas frustration with objectives and map design is around the 6 - 8 mark.

(Anti) #64

[QUOTE=Raviolay;488524]
I think newer players will prefer the hit less and kill faster option, I would of had I not been brainwashed. Now even though I am not that good. I would rather hit more (I still think this is more of a net code issue) with clear hit sounds RE remove the current personal hitsounds to your player as they sound too similar to the headshot hit “beep”.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear we agree with you with regards to a lot of your points, there are still things we think need fixing with regards to reg and hit feedback (audio and visual) and we have plans to do those, the stuff I posted above doesn’t in any way mean that we think we’re ready to ship in terms of gun play right now :slight_smile:

(Anti) #65

[QUOTE=Kendle;488526]
Not sure I like the inference that wanting to kill faster makes you “low skill”, but for me personally, and I know it’s largely the opposite of what a lot of people around here want[/QUOTE]

You’re right, it doesn’t really matter what skill level wants which of those options, it’s a question relevant to everybody.

(acutepuppy) #66

I stand by making sure the game has enough depth to make someone who just isn’t a great aim to be able to be effective, enjoy themselves, and get some kills. The map system, new abilities, HUD changes, communication tools, etc… will hopefully help bring a new player experience that makes good ol’ gunplay just one part to learn.

(spookify) #67

You cant delete posts? Please Delete this :frowning:

(spookify) #68

Just want the game to feel right :slight_smile:

(INF3RN0) #69

Hoping that chart makes some things more clear for people heh. I do think maps are the biggest problem for achieving multi-kills and greater visible distinction between players atm, more so than spread/etc. Considering how little separation there is between routes most times you don’t always get the chance to engage opponents effectively. I do think it would be nice to see 40-45% at the highest point of the chart (meaning more potential for 5man wipes), but I think even now it is still very possible to push ahead with good aim and smart play. Again though, I pin most of my frustrations on the map layouts.

(spookify) #70

HEY! I agree with you!!

Hip-Fired Automatic Weapons I would think should max out at 40%ish. That’s adding 2% to the top of the top player. No one got 38%…

But can we just say just add 2% by reducing spread or adjusting recoil? Nope haha I wish it was that easy… It’s a per gun feel that is going to be a very complete balancing act.

[QUOTE=Smooth;484937]Here’s the top 10 sorted by KPM for Sawbonez (v26021) and Phoenix (v26863)

top10_sawbonez.jpg1083×241 172 KB

top10_phoenix.jpg1073×241 172 KB

[/QUOTE]

Remember when Saw felt somewhat OK he was around 28% - 33.3% ACC… Again these were the stats of the top players.
Remember when Phoenix felt somewhat GOOD he was around 27.2% - 37.8% ACC… Again these were the stats of the top players.

One thing that also needs to be consider is ACC vs HS%… Draelor had the highest ACC by far however his HS% was low in comparison.

I am just throwing this out there by the few stats we have is the gun play should almost be looked at or a little more consideration for HS%.
Is there a chart for this?

I would say the best players in this game should hit around 20% to 25% HS% Maybe the best player or players in the entire world should hit 28%…

I am a broken record but Phoenix felt right for me at 34% ACC and 25.7% HS%… Each gun will need it own tweak and I welcome the challenge.

Conclusion: There is more to this “feel” problem that just spread. It could be Net-coding and many other things and I look forward to keep testing and supplying my relentless and annoying feedback to you all :wink:

(INF3RN0) #71

[QUOTE=spookify;488538]HEY! I agree with you!!
[/QUOTE]

Well imo top alpha stats are not the highest the game is likely to see. There’s a lot of exceptions to stats as well, which is why you have to look at all of them in combination. A player could get really high accuracy, but inversely have lower KPM, DPM, etc. The same goes for having a high HS ratio, but having low DPM, ACC, etc. Headshot ratios as important as they are do not always reflect how consistently a player actually get’s headshots in a duel for example because realistically your trying to output as much damage as possible and not always able to maintain constant head tracking. On the other hand you have to consider the skill level of the pub, which is why I like to see tourney/cup stats more often. I’d say in an easy pub a player could drop some pretty great stats, while a higher skilled tournament gives a better idea of how people perform under pressure. I can’t say I have ever had a game where I wasn’t throwing situations or miss-aiming myself, so I account that towards an additional percentage of what is actually possible.

(shaftz0r) #72

[QUOTE=Anti;488522]
The accuracy gap between the average player (lets say a range of 21% to 23%) to the pros (30% plus) is a 5%-8% accuracy difference. We’d maybe like the curve to shallow a bit, so the bottom end of pro is closer to 35% and the top end is around 40%, but we wouldn’t go much higher than that.

The fact that people got 30% to 50% in games like ET and Quake 3 is somewhat irrelevant without the distribution. Chances are in those games (and anecdotal evidence backs this up for me at least) that noobs were getting 20% to 25% accuracy in those games, so the population’s distribution was much like XT’s.[/QUOTE]

“noobs” in quake shoot in the teens. good aimers will shoot 60-70 rail and 35+ lg. a lot of that is map knowledge and movement which raises the skill ceiling exponentially.

i would think that hitting 40% in Xt on a good day shouldnt be god status though.

(Glottis-3D) #73

[QUOTE=Anti;488522] We’d maybe like the curve to shallow a bit, so the bottom end of pro is closer to 35% and the top end is around 40%, but we wouldn’t go much higher than that.
[/QUOTE]

thnx for the stats!

So, you as well think that aim is worse than it should be.

(tokamak) #74

I completely suck at COD but somehow I feel more in control in that game than in XT.

The reason is that there’s more to tactical shooters than strafing duels. This chart makes sense for that but once the tap-dance nonsense becomes less effective so will accuracy.

(Humate) #75

Do low skill players feel better if they die the same amount as they do in XT but hit they more often?

From the perspective of what I think works well is a multi-kill friendly TTK that has the capacity to either be super quick or super slow depending on the players ability.

If I find I’m always dieing, or that I’m getting fragged at super quick speeds, as long as there are tactical non-combat methods of influencing a match - I dont mind. :slight_smile:

(attack) #76

quake is amazing fun. isnt it.

(shaftz0r) #77

yes. yes it is.

(INF3RN0) #78

[QUOTE=krokodealer;488553]thnx for the stats!

So, you as well think that aim is worse than it should be.[/QUOTE]

He thinks the top aim margin should be slightly higher :tongue:. Do you feel like you breach the 37% stats currently? Anyone in that 37% margin could complain they are being limited by the game, otherwise anyone below it simply has to practice more. I’d be curious to see players in the top 20-50 highest accuracies though, as well as their average stats as well. It would give even better perspective on the player vs game discussion to know the facts ofc.

(INF3RN0) #79

[QUOTE=tokamak;488559]I completely suck at COD but somehow I feel more in control in that game than in XT.

The reason is that there’s more to tactical shooters than strafing duels. This chart makes sense for that but once the tap-dance nonsense becomes less effective so will accuracy.[/QUOTE]

Well strafing is the most classic maneuver, but I don’t like being limited to it. I love to crouch, jump, etc as often as I can. In the end it is all about having the most unpredictable movement patterns as possible. Sadly a lot of people demand anything non-strafing to be made worthless, but true tracking would involve more than just the X-axis after all. It is however a mostly fast paced game, where as most movement should compliment that.

I had considered an idea for a merc like Rhino though, being able to entrench himself and completely incapacitate his movement for less random spread. I also was really intrigued by the idea of a merc that could air glide as well. Some unique aspects could definitely be implemented on some mercs via stances- ETQW GPMG proning was always a great experience.

(acQu) #80

[QUOTE=tokamak;488559]I completely suck at COD but somehow I feel more in control in that game than in XT.

The reason is that there’s more to tactical shooters than strafing duels. This chart makes sense for that but once the tap-dance nonsense becomes less effective so will accuracy.[/QUOTE]

Bit off, but current stance on this issue aka “tap-dance nonsense” is that we are somewhere between Quake and CoD (AKA movement-based battles with long TTK vs cover based games with short TTK).

Things like slowdown while attacking, no sidewards sprint mixed with higher (forward) movement speed, long TTK. I find this not working out.

And more on to the quote: if i wanted to increase the overall accuracy stats for all players, i would not go ahead and limit players so they are better hittable. If i wanted to implement a cover-based game, then this might be a better reason to do so …