Why lots of testers complain about bad aim?

[INF3RN0]

That’s not where I’m coming from, or suspect that many of the people on this forum are either. Take TF2 - wildly different from RTCW and ET, but it has considerably more of what I thought was great about those games than XT does. It’s not about making a carbon copy game that fits like a glove, rather giving us the fast, fluid action and teamplay that we’ve had in previous games and that’s missing in nearly everything current.

Yea ofc, but that’s not what I am responding to. This is about people claiming that their superior aim is nulled by design, and bad aim is >/= good aim. If the stat charts had everyone capped off in one big clump that might be valid- however it is not. So then lag maybe? Input problems? Much simpler answer most likely, but then I’d be offending perfect aimers.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Rex;488478]But bad aimers can close up to a point where better aim doesn’t stand out that much. See my example with the HP above.
[/QUOTE]

Yes Rex ofc, but how many cases are there that the bad aimer wins more than the better aimer? Widening the gap will make the better players perform even better, but if someone is saying that bad players are always doing better than them… well it’s obvious who the real worse of the two actually is.

[Rex]

Yes Rex ofc, but how many cases are there that the bad aimer wins more than the better aimer? Widening the gap will make the better players perform even better, but if someone is saying that bad players are always doing better than them… well it’s obvious who the real worse of the two actually is.

That’s right. Though the impact of a small skill gap becomes much clearer when a better aimer encounters multiple enemies at once.

[INF3RN0]

That’s right. Though the impact of a small skill gap becomes much clearer when a better aimer encounters multiple enemies at once.

Okay, but considering that many of the complaints about “bad aimers keep killing me” comes from the statistically mid-range while there’s still more room for player side performance improvements according to those getting higher stats… do you understand why I keep saying “Yes to increasing the skill gap” - but also that “Aim does still matter in xT, and bad aimers do not outperform good ones- nor is the maximum potential as low as people claim”. You will always die when outnumbered at a certain point, and perhaps it should indeed be even more beneficial to good aimers. Either way, increasing the skill gap will not somehow fix people’s problems that aren’t already able to peak in the game’s current state and so I have to wonder if they will ever be satisfied??

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=spookify;488456]

Does that look OP?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Smooth;484937]Here’s the top 10 sorted by KPM for Sawbonez (v26021) and Phoenix (v26863)

[/QUOTE]

Found the comparative stats quote. Can’t really tell if Phoenix was outperforming Saw consistently, but perhaps the global stats did. Probably would help if SD commented on it for your sake lol.

[Rex]

Okay, but considering that many of the complaints about “bad aimers keep killing me” comes from the statistically mid-range while there’s still more room for player side performance improvements according to those getting higher stats… do you understand why I keep saying “Yes to increasing the skill gap” - but also that “Aim does still matter in xT, and bad aimers do not outperform good ones- nor is the maximum potential as low as people claim”. You will always die when outnumbered at a certain point, and perhaps it should indeed be even more beneficial to good aimers. Either way, increasing the skill gap will not somehow fix people’s problems that aren’t already able to peak in the game’s current state and so I have to wonder if they will ever be satisfied??

To be honest I think I’ve just lost track of what we actually argue about here. As long as all agree on the skill gap being too low it’s all fine.

[INF3RN0]

To be honest I think I’ve just lost track of what we actually argue about here. As long as all agree on the skill gap being too low it’s all fine.

You’ve been talking about something very different almost the whole time. I also would like to see a larger skill gap. The main thing I was responding to was the claims that “aiming is too random to matter” and “good aim barely beats bad aim” essentially. So players blame their average performance on the game preventing them from getting higher kpm, accuracy, etc when they think they should be doing much better. Based on the stats we have received from SD, I assume that most of these players appear to simply require further self-improvement considering. So if you understand why I find that part silly, we’re on the same page.

[Rex]

You’ve been talking about something very different almost the whole time. I also would like to see a larger skill gap. The main thing I was responding to was the claims that “aiming is too random to matter” and “good aim barely beats bad aim” essentially. So players blame their average performance on the game preventing them from getting higher kpm, accuracy, etc when they think they should be doing much better. Based on the stats we have received from SD, I assume that most of these players appear to simply require further self-improvement considering. So if you understand why I find that part silly, we’re on the same page.

Got it, though I don’t agree. And I would replace ‘their average performance’ with game limitations.

[INF3RN0]

Got it, though I don’t agree. And I would replace ‘their average performance’ with game limitations.

If there are other people getting higher stats, how is it not average and how is it due to limitations? That’s what I fail to see. It would be like me going into a game, doing worse than someone else, and then saying it was the game’s fault. Does not register to my logic.

Maybe the person doing the best wasn’t that far ahead, but it wouldn’t change the fact that they were setting the bar higher than what I was doing. I’d interpret that as being my problem for not matching their performance. Before I started complaining, I would make sure I was at least in the top 5%. Where the bar should be set however is another question altogether.

I can guarantee that SD views a majority of complaints as purely ego infused because of this. Imagine if you beat a person 10-5 over and over, and they kept telling you the game was limiting their ability. I doubt you would take it seriously. Maybe the game was limiting your ability to go 10-0, but you were definitely making them fall into the average margin by comparison. Even in a game like CoD, the game is even easier than xT but the difference between a pro and an average player is still large enough to matter.

[Rex]

Before I started complaining, I would make sure I was at least in the top 5%.

Wrong!

You don’t need to be a map designer yourself to highlight flaws on maps.
Also you don’t need to be in the top list of a random stats page to voice your feedback about what’s wrong with the shooting mechanic and that it needs to be improved towards a larger skill gap.

I can guarantee that SD views a majority of complaints as purely ego infused because of this.

Don’t think so. And if they did, it wouldn’t be good at all. Because that would mean they don’t need to change anything because the players are the problem. In general it’s not like only 5 players complain about the shooting mechanic, but a vast majority.

[INF3RN0]

So if SD sees someone complain that they can never hit what they aim at, and then they see that person has average stats… they just ignore that fact and just keep changing things until that person feels better? That would be like me going into any game and giving an average performance, and then telling the devs to keep changing things until my aim got better… maybe people can’t hit what they aim at more than others because they are having trouble aiming to begin with?? If 5% of the population is setting the stat bar where everyone else wants to be, the only way they are going to get there is on their own. Another spread patch would likely bring the most consistent average accuracy to around 40%+, but anyone who isn’t already getting the highest possible accuracy now isn’t going to suddenly perform better. Do people really just want lower spread or will they never be happy until they feel like they are the best at aiming?

[Glottis-3D]

first and last of all. i want to know why exactly are ppl complaining.
INFERNO’s opinion is that they all suck. thats an easy way to answer it. but as politically correct as it is - it’s only an opinion.

so i suggested the only way to prove this right or wrong. to add a spread-less weapon so everybody could only blame the game lags/fps etc or their hands.
just to get one of the unknown values out of equation, if you know what i mean.

[acQu]

[QUOTE=spookify;488473]
This is hard to explain but Before Phoenix was nerfed with more spread and recoil in a fire fight I could know or feel my bullets. I could know how many bullets it would take to kill someone and the time of the length of the fire fight and around when they should kill me. The biggest thing is I would know if I messed up my tracking or twitch reflect when in the fire fight and know if I didnt correct my next bullet I would lose the fight. What was also nice about knowing your gun was that you could anticipate your next opponent and know the split second or bullet that kills your currnt bad guy and move or lead the next enemy that is coming. Right now I have no idea when someone is going to die. It feels like blind luck. [/QUOTE]

What you describe is exactly what i was able to do in ET so well, i could pretty much predict when i am going to die, when i have an edge over the enemy, etc. SD needs to read this and address this issue.

Imo this can be also a matter of netcode (not only spread), because you may all remember the fights against high-pingers in the old times. There it was sometimes the case that you immediately dropped to the ground without any kind of feedback, ou would just fall down. It was also the case that when you shot someone, the bullets seemed to be sucked in for some time (the ping time) and after a while you get confirmation by him either still standing, or dropping dead. My understanding of this, however, is only based on assumptions about how that specific part of the netcode behaves. So the conclusion of this would be: you get pretty much a (sorry weird word) “subjectively indeterministic” feeling about hitfeedback, because it depends on the client your are shooting, whereas on, for example, Quake servers, you get a more “subjectively deterministic” (AKA consistent) hitfeedback, because the server is always at around the same ping away from you and it calculates hits without taking ping of players into account.

Put that into the perspective of above describings, you have almost no chance in xT in developing that skill, because you simply can’t know and predict when you are going to die or when you are going to get the kill over the enemy (it is so vital information your brain calculates, especially in a fast FPS title, where every second matters). Every player has sort of his own time-space continuum and so there are diverse times on hitfeedback (real ones, like “do i drop now or am i ahead?”) based on player ping. This skill is sort of like a very tiny predictability window (in range of milliseconds) calculated constantly by your brain, it may seem just milliseconds, but once you have developed that skill, you would not want to miss it; pretty much like Neo in the Matrix :).

In xT you can imo not develop that skill because of diverse and client-ping-dependent hitfeedback.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=krokodealer;488502]first and last of all. i want to know why exactly are ppl complaining.
INFERNO’s opinion is that they all suck. thats an easy way to answer it. but as politically correct as it is - it’s only an opinion.

so i suggested the only way to prove this right or wrong. to add a spread-less weapon so everybody could only blame the game lags/fps etc or their hands.
just to get one of the unknown values out of equation, if you know what i mean.[/QUOTE]

More or less quoting me in the worst way possible, but I guess so considering I am just looking at the stats and not seeing it as a global problem. Stats aren’t opinion either… they are facts, but I guess I don’t trust people who say that they have really good aim and the game is limiting them, but they aren’t getting good stats. I want to believe it’s mouse lag or netcode or something, but at a certain point I just see people upset that they aren’t as good at xT as they would like to be. No hard feelings.

[Glottis-3D]

More or less quoting me in the worst way possible, but I guess so considering I am just looking at the stats and not seeing it as a global problem. Stats aren’t opinion either… they are facts, but I guess I don’t trust people who say that they have really good aim and the game is limiting them, but they aren’t getting good stats. I want to believe it’s mouse lag or netcode or something, but at a certain point I just see people upset that they aren’t as good at xT as they would like to be. No hard feelings.

no hard feelings at all. but you do say this thing a lot. i mean a realy lot. =) i dont want to believe, a want to check and i want ppl to check.

[prophett]

I don’t trust people who say that they have really good aim and the game is limiting them, but they aren’t getting good stats.

I think people use ET as a benchmark where shooting 30-50% was the norm (even for top tier matches). Most med+ players shot over 35% consistently. Not going to bother looking for the accuracy stats from the draft/tourney, but I believe accuracy topped out around the mid-high 20s? (correct me if I am wrong).

It’s definitely not fair to compare the two games but when you do it’s all too easy to blame xT for poor accuracy.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=prophett;488509]I think people use ET as a benchmark where shooting 30-50% was the norm (even for top tier matches). Most med+ players shot over 35% consistently. Not going to bother looking for the accuracy stats from the draft/tourney, but I believe accuracy topped out around the mid-high 20s? (correct me if I am wrong).

It’s definitely not fair to compare the two games but when you do it’s all too easy to blame xT for poor accuracy.[/QUOTE]

The highest was around 30-35% in the tourney I believe (found the link). I also don’t think that stat is necessarily the highest the game will see either. I saw one of my own personal long-term stat charts where I was shooting 35-40% for a couple months or so back when I had been playing pretty consistently. I’d expect a lot of players to get pretty decent stats (by perhaps more of an ETQW standard) with more consistent playtime, especially if the game attracts a pro scene.

[stealth6]

[QUOTE=krokodealer;488502]first and last of all. i want to know why exactly are ppl complaining.
INFERNO’s opinion is that they all suck. thats an easy way to answer it. but as politically correct as it is - it’s only an opinion.

so i suggested the only way to prove this right or wrong. to add a spread-less weapon so everybody could only blame the game lags/fps etc or their hands.
just to get one of the unknown values out of equation, if you know what i mean.[/QUOTE]

It’s clear to me now the only way to settle this is on the battlefield. SD needs to organise a 1v1 tournament or ladder and the winner is allowed to voice their opinion. It is the only opinion that will be taken into consideration until (s)he is beaten.

[INF3RN0]

It’s clear to me now the only way to settle this is on the battlefield. SD needs to organise a 1v1 tournament or ladder and the winner is allowed to voice their opinion. It is the only opinion that will be taken into consideration until (s)he is beaten.

Or they can keep collecting raw stats from cups, drafts, pubs, and even give out maximum accuracy stats from aimbot tests. We’ve seen enough at this point for it to be pretty clear by now. Analyzing global stats to determine whether these issues with weapons are global or individual sided doesn’t really involve opinion. Unless it is someone’s opinion that flat recorded numbers lie lol. For example that cup turned out some decent stats considering a lot of people hadn’t played in months before it took place, so it is safe to assume the stats could have been higher. The only opinion part is what we think should be the highest possible accuracy? 50%? 100%? Surely have to draw the line somewhere.

[Glottis-3D]

It’s clear to me now the only way to settle this is on the battlefield. SD needs to organise a 1v1 tournament or ladder and the winner is allowed to voice their opinion. It is the only opinion that will be taken into consideration until (s)he is beaten.

i dont know where did you get that from quoted post. that is not what i was talking about.