Which body type is your favourite? (part 1)

[tokamak]

Well classes will always be more important to the game, the bodytype is inferior to that, if people keep doing something that clearly is not working than that’s their problem is it not?

[INF3RN0]

Well classes will always be more important to the game, the bodytype is inferior to that, if people keep doing something that clearly is not working than that’s their problem is it not?

So again everything is still dependent on how much body types will really affect game play per class. As to that statement, if your playing with them it becomes your problem as well does it not .

So based on this epic debate, if you were playing a competitive game of Brink for the title of ‘Ruler of the Tapirs’ would you want body types locked to a single type for everybody? Or to be able to change them on the fly? I’m just wondering if you folks feel it’s lack of choice that’s the issue or fear of an imbalance between them.

I really don’t think that those opposed to free-changing gave any really tangible reasons behind why the body type should be locked. The opposition really just appeared to be arguments for the sake of arguing lol… One side says that one system is more “strategical” than the other, but from a very realistic view point the repeated reasoning that locking prevents imbalance is pretty false as it does nothing but increase the chances of imbalance (assuming again that body types are important). The best solution in my opinion is to simply look at how both systems will mesh with the game play in making the decision as to which will be implemented, as well as considering whether there are other routes that may serve it better.

[QUOTE=Rahdo;204444]odd, i wrote up and posted a very long answer to shir awhile ago, and just noticed that it’s missing. i spent like a half hour on it. will have to figure out what happened there.

anway, keep up the discussion. it’s very good, and useful for us to see you guys working through the kinks and issues like this. :)[/QUOTE]

Apparently SD can’t share their view points on the matter, which is unfortunate because I think it would be extremely helpful if we knew more details about this issue .

[Nail]

Hmmm, I thought they stated their view when it was said, no body changes in game, only between matches

[INF3RN0]

Hmmm, I thought they stated their view when it was said, no body changes in game, only between matches

There is still a long time before the game comes out, and it seems to me they are open to their customers view points. Blindly backing something that has been communicated by the devs, which might encompass some serious issues does not help anyone in my opinion, and it makes it very difficult for them to decide what works as opposed to what people assume will work.

[DarkangelUK]

There is still a long time before the game comes out, and it seems to me they are open to their customers view points. Blindly backing something that has been communicated by the devs, which might encompass some serious issues does not help anyone in my opinion, and it makes it very difficult for them to decide what works as opposed to what people assume will work.

You say that like there’s no one testing the game, and hasn’t been for a while… and the fact that all this testing that hasn’t gone on hasn’t wielded a point blank obvious imbalance for locking classes. It’s just a blind decision thrown in there on pure hope with no daily playtests at all

[MILFandCookies]

For comp i like the idea of bodytypes being locked for a round. So if a team decides to play with all heavies on defence, then they will need to play all heavies for attack. But they at least get the choice which bodytype they want to use before the round starts.

I also like the idea of having all the ‘approved’ abilities in a pool which players can choose from. Something like a point system to balance it out would be cool.

[INF3RN0]

You say that like there’s no one testing the game, and hasn’t been for a while… and the fact that all this testing that hasn’t gone on hasn’t wielded a point blank obvious imbalance for locking classes. It’s just a blind decision thrown in there on pure hope with no daily playtests at all

Your assuming that the people testing the game will uncover all the issues and play the game the same way that the rest of us will . Like I said I don’t really mind either system, but I can see some obvious reasons against locking a single body type. Still though, unless I am convinced otherwise I would say there is a much more realistic argument for the free-changing really. My main concern is always about balance though, as more options is just a luxury.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=MILFandCookies;216962]For comp i like the idea of bodytypes being locked for a round. So if a team decides to play with all heavies on defence, then they will need to play all heavies for attack. But they at least get the choice which bodytype they want to use before the round starts.

I also like the idea of having all the ‘approved’ abilities in a pool which players can choose from. Something like a point system to balance it out would be cool.[/QUOTE]

I can see body type locking working much better in a comp scene. Being able to organize body types/classes per player would make things a lot easier, as well as making the selection process much more important as it would be permanent. It really seems like it would require too much organization and coordination in a pub though, which is why I am very confused why more people would not want something a bit less formal.

[DarkangelUK]

Well going by that you are against locking them, so why say you don’t mind either system?

Any way just had a very long discussion on the subject in the splash IRC channel (to boot the same discussion that happened many moons ago on the same subject on here) so i’ll leave it at that and have a little faith that SD have tested all possible unbalancing scenarios that a locked bodytype system may bring… and assume they’ve tweaked to a point that its feasable by the fact its still in place.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;216969]Well going by that you are against locking them, so why say you don’t mind either system?

Any way just had a very long discussion on the subject in the splash IRC channel (to boot the same discussion that happened many moons ago on the same subject on here) so i’ll leave it at that and have a little faith that SD have tested all possible unbalancing scenarios that a locked bodytype system may bring… and assume they’ve tweaked to a point that its feasable by the fact its still in place.[/QUOTE]

Lol. Again your so driven to prove someone wrong that your missing the point. I don’t mind personally as to which is chosen because I am more adaptive than the casual player (don’t take that the wrong way), but I am thinking of the general good of the game. I want the game system to work the way it is supposed to, and in my opinion (unless strongly reassured by SD) if body types turn out to have a significant role, then locking them will cause a lot of problems. To me it seems like something that is not very friendly to the pub environment. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here, as I have the best interests of this game being a success .

[tokamak]

So again everything is still dependent on how much body types will really affect game play per class. As to that statement, if your playing with them it becomes your problem as well does it not

And how is that any different to simply playing with rubbish players in general? If you don’t like that, don’t play a team game.

And frankly, the whole argument from ‘potentially flawed balancing’ is just bollocks, it can be used to object to every single feature in the game.

Blindly backing something that has been communicated by the devs, which might encompass some serious issues does not help anyone in my opinion, and it makes it very difficult for them to decide what works as opposed to what people assume will work.

Neither does blindly asserting that something doesn’t work. We (at least, I) gave our reasons for why we think a lock works, how about dealing with those instead?

I also like the idea of having all the ‘approved’ abilities in a pool which players can choose from. Something like a point system to balance it out would be cool.

I think you’ll find that this already how the game works. You have a limited amount of upgrades you can include yet your collection of upgrades grows as you progress. All a league has to do is select the upgrades to include in the competition (ideally all of them would be right) and then just play the game as normally (with the limitation).

[INF3RN0]

Okay so I am still not getting a response as to how locked body types will not encompass more problems than any other system. Rahdo made a post about how it doesn’t seem to present any problems in their internal tests, how body types are balanced in terms of gain and loss, and that he thinks locked is fine. So aside from internal tests and his analogy, there is still a lot of unanswered questions (that SD apparently is not allowed to answer yet or are not 100% sure they can answer). I would like to know if these tests encompass setting up random scenarios, putting up a group of all the same body type vs a more varied one etc, and then seeing if there is a significant difference. If SD could confirm that body type is an insignificant variable in the outcome of games, then it would clear up the entire issue. No one seems to be catching on to what I am trying to say here… I am on the same page as Shirosae, but he seems to have been drowned out mid thread. I really cannot believe that this issue is not even of the slightest concern to some of you…

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Rahdo;202867]I definitely get your point, but I think this is where the fundamental disagreement stems from. To me, there is no one best bodytype for any situation. All three of them are valuable, all bring something different, and all are useful in any tactical situation. A team of all heavies is well set to take on any situation, as is a team of all lights; the two teams would just handle the situations differently. And that’s what I really like about the system right now, that the combinations that come about because of the unpredictable mix of body types really helps keep every situation fresh and unique.

As an example of what I don’t want to see happen, I believe that if players could change body type at any time in a match, the majority of players would always go all heavy every time while on defense, because they’d believe (incorrectly) that it was the ‘best possible’ thing to do. “stay put, hunker down, outlast the enemy”. And that owuld make situations less interesting because you’d always run into the same wall of tanks defending core objectives. But because player have to make that choice and stick to it for the whole match (or both matches in stopwatch), you get more interesting and dynamic situations because of the unexpected mixes of classes and body types available.[/QUOTE]

This is the closest post by Rahdo that touches on the issue, but still does not seem very reassuring. I would really appreciate a post that ensured the accuracy of this information, other than simply saying that in order to play with any kind of body type variance the team is going to have to play in a different manner; plus the assumption that locking body types will force people to mix them up. I would blame the lack of organization and teamwork in a pub for allowing the achievement of such a task nearly impossible. There won’t be ideal situations for success in the actual game.

[MILFandCookies]

I think you’ll find that this already how the game works. You have a limited amount of upgrades you can include yet your collection of upgrades grows as you progress. All a league has to do is select the upgrades to include in the competition (ideally all of them would be right) and then just play the game as normally (with the limitation).

Im suggesting a pool of upgrades available to the player, unlocks which may have not been unlocked by them. Also certain abilities such as high level interrogation are unlikely to be in the pool for most comps. You’re correct, leagues will have their own rulesets / configs which define what abilities are “approved”.

[tokamak]

Okay so I am still not getting a response as to how locked body types will not encompass more problems than any other system. Rahdo made a post about how it doesn’t seem to present any problems in their internal tests, how body types are balanced in terms of gain and loss, and that he thinks locked is fine. So aside from internal tests and his analogy, there is still a lot of unanswered questions (that SD apparently is not allowed to answer yet or are not 100% sure they can answer). I would like to know if these tests encompass setting up random scenarios, putting up a group of all the same body type vs a more varied one etc, and then seeing if there is a significant difference. If SD could confirm that body type is an insignificant variable in the outcome of games, then it would clear up the entire issue. No one seems to be catching on to what I am trying to say here… I am on the same page as Shirosae, but he seems to have been drowned out mid thread. I really cannot believe that this issue is not even of the slightest concern to some of you…

It’s significant in that the bodytypes will have to be played in the right way and of course it will influence tactics. But it doesn’t bear the significance of having an engineer during a construction objective.

You’re right, I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say. What exactly IS your problem?

I might be starting to sound like a broken record but somehow it still doesn’t seem to get through to you. The bodytypes are mainly there to influence the combat part of the game, not the mission part. Therefore bodtypes can never be as essential as classes to win a match.

You can’t lose because of a disadvantegous bodytype setup, you can lose by your team not knowing how to deal with their particular bodytype setup.

I would blame the lack of organization and teamwork in a pub for allowing the achievement of such a task nearly impossible. There won’t be ideal situations for success in the actual game.

That’s cancelled out by it being difficult for both teams, this means that an immsenly long (not steep) learning curve is present in the game.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=tokamak;216988]It’s significant in that the bodytypes will have to be played in the right way and of course it will influence tactics. But it doesn’t bear the significance of having an engineer during a construction objective.

You’re right, I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say. What exactly IS your problem?

I might be starting to sound like a broken record but somehow it still doesn’t seem to get through to you. The bodytypes are mainly there to influence the combat part of the game, not the mission part. Therefore bodtypes can never be as essential as classes to win a match.

You can’t lose because of a disadvantegous bodytype setup, you can lose by your team not knowing how to deal with their particular bodytype setup.

That’s cancelled out by it being difficult for both teams, this means that an immsenly long (not steep) learning curve is present in the game.[/QUOTE]

Ok so Radho understands the issue that shirosae and I have with this, and I am just going to wait to get a good answer from him. I was first attempting to look at the reasoning behind locking anything at all and thinking about the potential problems it could present. You might be looking at this issue in the wrong way, which would be why your having trouble following what we are saying. And yes, in the end it may appear balanced because both sides endure the same system, but its a system of chance and if my concerns prove to be substantial, then it would be a very big problem (even though it might randomly occur).

[otakustar]

chance is the thing that makes a game a game, if you don’t want chance go play chess or go (the game)
:stroggbanana:

[Reanimator]

So you have to stay the same bodytype during the match, but classes are changeable throughout the match right? Or if you choose Medic are you forced to be the Medic the whole time?

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=otakustar;216992]chance is the thing that makes a game a game, if you don’t want chance go play chess or go (the game)
:stroggbanana:[/QUOTE]

lol… chance as in that the game system might be balanced by random chance . Unless we don’t want to reinforce balance in games anymore, then I guess I am out of place :). Gee even Radho thinks this is an important issue, but believes that they will get it right. If you don’t think that the obvious goal stated by SD multiple times towards achieving balance is wrong, then maybe this is the wrong game for you. This is such a outrageously obvious issue and maybe you guys think your defending SD or something, but it is really just coming across as aggressive ignorance. If SD can get it to work then cool, but there is a ton of risky features so far and I think it is perfectly normal to be concerned…

[tokamak]

So you have to stay the same bodytype during the match, but classes are changeable throughout the match right? Or if you choose Medic are you forced to be the Medic the whole time?

Classes are changeable during the match, you don’t even need to respawn to switch. But you’ll have to stick with your bodytype.

And yes, in the end it may appear balanced because both sides endure the same system, but its a system of chance and if my concerns prove to be substantial, then it would be a very big problem (even though it might randomly occur).

Yes, chance is a factor, and I consider responding to unpredected events and improvising as very valuable skills that are being tested through this. You’re just asserting that chance is a problem.