Was Phantom overnerfed ?

(Grave_Knight) #101

[quote=“Someordinaryguy;78251”]Then what’s the point of the cloak ? You can as well sneak as other mercs and flank without being hidered by the constant ringing and badly nerfed katana[/quote]Plenty ask that question enough. You can somewhat hide while standing still, and you’re less notice if you walk, seems it’s best used to rush past people’s peripheral. Personally I use it to either hide while standing still or as a bullet magnet.

(watsyurdeal) #102

His point is why should we use Phantom if we have to flank just to make it useful?

I can flank with Bushwacka just as easily, and set up a turret, while I plant a bomb.

Or I could use Phantom, who can do neither of those things and has about the same killing potential with his SMGs…

I think the choice here is obvious

Also, preripheral vision? As in right in front of someone? As in not being able to see him?

Are you joking?

(Fiktio) #103

Of course moving things attracts attention, but otherwise even standing still while using the cloak will not make you hidden. You are still clearly visible and that’s the part of the cloak I found ridiculous.

(Amerika) #104

Of course moving things attracts attention, but otherwise even standing still while using the cloak will not make you hidden. You are still clearly visible and that’s the part of the cloak I found ridiculous.[/quote]

If you’re not moving it is hard to see you. And if you find a darker part of the map you might as well be invisible. I use these spots all the time. It’s part of what makes his current iteration require some intelligence to use and why I enjoy it.

(Fiktio) #105

Of course moving things attracts attention, but otherwise even standing still while using the cloak will not make you hidden. You are still clearly visible and that’s the part of the cloak I found ridiculous.[/quote]

If you’re not moving it is hard to see you. And if you find a darker part of the map you might as well be invisible. I use these spots all the time. It’s part of what makes his current iteration require some intelligence to use and why I enjoy it.[/quote]

At darker maps and darker spots cloak indeed works better way, but in maps where are more light, even standing still won’t make them invisible and they are so much easier to see.
(And this is a thing that many Phantom players seems to forget often. That’s why I wanted to mention about it.)
Of course this is opinion question, but I think they could work a bit with cloak again, so at least when standing still, Phantom could be invisible. What comes about moving part, I’m not sure would increasing visibility be worth it or not.
Phantom is quite hard to make balanced, but I appreciate that devs even consider about taking another look for him. :slight_smile:

After all I’m playing with Phantom 24/7, so I’m super interested about possible buffs/nerfs.

(Grave_Knight) #106

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;78318”]Also, preripheral vision? As in right in front of someone? As in not being able to see him?[/quote]…? Peripheral vision is vision off the center. That’s the complete opposite of what you just described. And I was mainly speaking of far peripheral.

(watsyurdeal) #107

[quote=“Grave_Knight;78653”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78318”]Also, preripheral vision? As in right in front of someone? As in not being able to see him?[/quote]…? Peripheral vision is vision off the center. That’s the complete opposite of what you just described. And I was mainly speaking of far peripheral.
[/quote]

So in other words, it’s best for when you’re not easily seen by the enemy? As in blindspot or to far to make out?

What is the point of that? Phantom is not a long range class, so not being visible from far away really doesn’t do him any good. And also, total bull s#%t, since you can be seen crossing the river bank by a Vassili or Red Eye on Trainyard.

Second, if you have to stay out of sight to make cloak useful…kinda defeats the whole point of being invisible doesn’t it? To be able to walk though someone’s direct line of sight and not be detected?

Seems like to me you and I have very different ideas of what cloak actually is.

It’s not an actual stealth tool if it doesn’t actually help you be stealthy. Being seen in plain sight is not helping with that, at all.

(Grave_Knight) #108

You’re pretty much arguing just to argue.

(Telzen) #109

It does help you be stealthy, it just doesn’t let you be stealthy while standing in someones face. I’ve been playing Phantom lately and I’m coming to realize you guys must just be bad lol.

(neverplayseriou) #110

@Telzen or you’re just playing with extremely low lvls…

(Kevin) #111

The problem is that Phantom skills are bad compared to the rest of the mercs. If you haven’t noticed everone elses skills has a use for the team, but Phantom?

His skill just lets you tank a bit and has a cloak is nearly useless against people who are good and for flanking when there are others near your vicinity.

Phantom’s only merits are his katana, good smg mains, and a bit of tankiness.

Also, I’m pretty sure has Sawbones has the same amount of hp as Phantom, same movement speed, can heal teammates and rez them, and has the best smgs too.

Lets also mention that his katana might not be exclusive to him in the near future too.

(Fiktio) #112

The thing is, sometimes you shouldn’t only rely on abilities.
I’ve seen so many Phantoms that believes that their cloak covers them fully even in daylight, crossing in the middle of the street and attacking far from front.
But of course I see them and that’s exactly how it’s supposed to be.

With Phantom you can’t only rely on abilities and hope that abilities makes all the work for you.
I know, some characters have way more effective abilities like Kira with her laser and Nader with grenade launcher. For players that have a need to rely on abilities every time when they are in danger, Phantom might not be the most suitable merc. But that’s the whole point:
Having different kind of mercs for different kind of players.
There are as many playingstyles as we have players, but obviously not every merc suits everyone’s playingstyle.

Earlier you were able to rely on cloak and tank yourself everywhere and that caused so many grey hair for others. No wonder why. But now you actually have to think what you are doing and use things that were given for you: primary, secondary weapon and melee.
Cloak still can take small damage and help you to survive from explosives and that cloak still makes it possible to make you less visible. You aren’t fully invisible, but if you are clever and think what you are doing, with cloak you can become quite invisible.
(Though still some minor buffs for Phantom would be great in the future.)

Hah, some guys even asked me how do I hide my Phantom from their view and did developers already buff Phantom, because they are having hard time to see me.
How do I do that? That’s still hard question to answer. :slight_smile:

(Kevin) #113

[quote=“Fiktio;78788”]The thing is, sometimes you shouldn’t only rely on abilities.
I’ve seen so many Phantoms that believes that their cloak covers them fully even in daylight, crossing in the middle of the street and attacking far from front.
But of course I see them and that’s exactly how it’s supposed to be.

With Phantom you can’t only rely on abilities and hope that abilities makes all the work for you.
I know, some characters have way more effective abilities like Kira with her laser and Nader with grenade launcher. For players that have a need to rely on abilities every time when they are in danger, Phantom might not be the most suitable merc. But that’s the whole point:
Having different kind of mercs for different kind of players.
There are as many playingstyles as we have players, but obviously not every merc suits everyone’s playingstyle.

Earlier you were able to rely on cloak and tank yourself everywhere and that caused so many grey hair for others. No wonder why. But now you actually have to think what you are doing and use things that were given for you: primary, secondary weapon and melee.
Cloak still can take small damage and help you to survive from explosives and that cloak still makes it possible to make you less visible. You aren’t fully invisible, but if you are clever and think what you are doing, with cloak you can become quite invisible.
(Though still some minor buffs for Phantom would be great in the future.)

Hah, some guys even asked me how do I hide my Phantom from their view and did developers already buff Phantom, because they are having hard time to see me.
How do I do that? That’s still hard question to answer. :)[/quote]

I think you missed the whole point of the post if you were trying to qoute me, but good job on writing that.

(Fiktio) #114

[quote=“Kevin;78791”]
I think you missed the whole point of the post if you were trying to qoute me, but good job on writing that.[/quote]

If I write my post right after you, it doesn’t mean that I’m talking directly to you.
If I would like to quote you, I know exactly how to do it. :wink:

Though now when you decided to give “disagree” for the post, if I may ask, what part made you disagree with me?

(Kevin) #115

The fact that you believe Phantom is a different kind of merc because of his semi useful ability, and if he doesn’t have an ability to rely on then he is no different than a merc with no ability at all.

(Fiktio) #116

All mercs are different, there’s a reason why they all aren’t exactly the same.
It would be even ridiculous to say that they are all the same.

And my whole point of “relying on ability” was based for those players that are “spamming the ability only.”
Great examples are those players who are spamming grenade launchers 24/7 or airstrikes or even holding minigun all the time, making sure that they won’t even accidentally touch another weapons they have.

(watsyurdeal) #117

Because it’s not like abilities define a merc and how you use them…oh wait, it does.

Sure, you shouldn’t RELY on it per say, but to say Phantom shouldn’t rely on his cloak to get his job done is like, what the hell? What else should he rely on? He has nothing to offer that anyone else does not have or will not have BESIDES his Refractive Armor.

I don’t think anyone likes the actual Armor aspect of it, nobody likes shooting at a guy who’s moving relatively fast and is able to tank damage like he’s a heavier merc. But I also don’t think Phantom players like the fact that anyone with eyes can clearly see him coming.

Splash Damage’s whole approach to a stealth class was flawed, you don’t give him more armor, you give him the means to get in close while taking something away or adding a risk.

TF2 is the one of the few games that did a Stealth class really well, all the counter play needed on a Vanilla level of playing is there, and the tools he needs are available to him.

Infiltrator is another good example, but the speed of that game is insanity compared to Dirty Bomb, Splash needs to look at those games and look at what they can do for Phantom. Cause the current version I don’t think is going to fully ever satisfy either side.

(Fiktio) #118

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;78833”]Because it’s not like abilities define a merc and how you use them…oh wait, it does.

Sure, you shouldn’t RELY on it per say, but to say Phantom shouldn’t rely on his cloak to get his job done is like, what the hell? What else should he rely on? He has nothing to offer that anyone else does not have or will not have BESIDES his Refractive Armor…[/quote]

One great example of those Phantom players who were only relying on cloak, were those who added cloak on and rushed to the enemy like headless chicken.
Before the nerf it worked quite well, but now these same players often are complaining how “useless” is whole merc. They rush again, but now even cloak won’t save them as easily as it did before.

They don’t like it and suddenly whole merc seems useless in their eyes.

This is a thing that I always find stupid.
However I also think that Phantom is not not at good shape. Phantom really needs minor buff.

(watsyurdeal) #119

Let me put it to you like this, if they nerfed Fragger’s nades to do the same damage as Skyhammer’s Airstrike Marker, and nerfed his health to 120…what would he be good for?

2 of his main strengths taken away and he’s basically pointless.

Now look at Phantom, he has 110 health, SMGs, and a melee that has been announced to possibly be used by other classes in the future…so all he has is his Refractive Armor. To say people shouldn’t rely on it is essentially saying, they shouldn’t even bother playing him. Because you could use someone with similar specs, and a more useful ability. Like Sawbonez or Bushwacka.

(watsyurdeal) #120

Let me put it to you like this, if they nerfed Fragger’s nades to do the same damage as Skyhammer’s Airstrike Marker, and nerfed his health to 120…what would he be good for?

2 of his main strengths taken away and he’s basically pointless.

Now look at Phantom, he has 110 health, SMGs, and a melee that has been announced to possibly be used by other classes in the future…so all he has is his Refractive Armor. To say people shouldn’t rely on it is essentially saying, they shouldn’t even bother playing him.