Was Phantom overnerfed ?

(Someordinaryguy) #1

Yeah, it’s another of those “underpowered Phantom” threads.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a blast to play as him but it’s not as rewarding nor easy as playing as other mercs.

First of all let’s talk about the katana: when Phantom was released it was clearly broken with 2s “kill period” (infamous Beyblade Phantom https://youtube.com/watch?v=hhLy2LSc3qA ) but now I feel like it’s a broken, hot mess - it has almost the same range as the cricket bat (it’s a giant sword for crying out loud ! ) Even Rhino can bunnyhop away from it unless you get the jump on him.

Which bring us to my second problem with Phantom: the stealth. Frankly it doesn’t work, especially on day maps (cough Bridge cough). On the other hand I agree with damage reduction nerf, since on release Phantom had HP potential similar to Fragger.

So what could be done to make Phantom more viable ? I’m no game developer but I see it like this: Phantom should be a STEALTH class focused on picking LONE/HIGH VALUE targets in Cqb and SNEAKING around/FLANKING the enemy to get a jump on them. My dream changes would be:

-Delete SMG’s as his primaries- Phantom should only have a melee weapon and a pistol (like in the Scrubs trailer), so he’s a close range-only assassin class not “I dunno who I am” class (but maybe give him a machine pistol for knife loadouts as a trade-off for not having a katana)

-Get rid of damage reduction but buff his cloaking abilities. Playing Phantom shouldn’t be about rushing into combat and shaking off bullets- it should be about outsmarting your enemies and flanking. Make him almost invisible in dark areas and when not moving and only slightly visible when moving.

-Increase katana range and amp it’s damage. This will further solidify Phantom as a melee focused merc. And since we got rid of this atrocious “2s kill period” I think katana does not require a turn speed decrease anymore. Maybe even rework an m2 attack completly-add a small lunge to it and if you get a kill it’ll automatically finish off the enemy (similar to TF2 Spy backstab mechanic) but you could do that every 3-4seconds. This will make a Phantom a greater threat to lone wolf players but if you try to stab a group of players you’re screwed

-This one might be controversial but I’d love to see some kind of EMP ability for Phantom. Maybe make it so that when you have more than 50% cloak you can “discharge” the rest of the energy in a AOE EMP blast. You’d loose all cloak+get 3 more seconds of cloak recharge time, but any enemy equipment around you would shut down- turrets, ammo/health stations, mines, stickies. It could also be used as an “escape” ability ,since it could slightly blind enemies (shorter than beta Thunder Flash Nades)

All in all I think this rework of Phantom would turn him into a “real” ghost/assassin class - able to flank around, pick off squishy/lone wolf players and get out but easily defeated by large groups of enemies/stronger mercs/long range combat.

TL:DR Phantom is a broken mess

(XavienX) #2

His nerfs made sense, but it doesn’t make sense to nerf every single one of them, every merc still needs a OP part to them. You know what I mean?
First of all, I think he’s too visible for a cloak that isn’t meant to be quite visible. Even noobs can see me, let alone all the noise it makes.
Secondly, his lunge attack’s hitbox is kinda weird with the melee limiter, like really weird. In fact it almost has worse range than it’s primary slash attack.
Third of all, his refractive armor doesn’t block all incoming damage, making it even easier to kill him, a merc that is visible when cloaked, makes a loud @$$ noise and is trying to melee you with 110hp with a speed reduction when melee equipped.
Yep, he’s quite overnerfed. But not nerfed to broken, those nerfs needs to just be tweaked to the right sense.

(Reddeadcap) #3

I believe his visibility and health shouldn’t have been changed as the main obvious problems were the armor’s damage mitigation, the katana’s RMB’s ease of use and the fast recharge rate on the cloak, Prior to that the whole fact the refractive armor decreases damage taken when activated makes little to no sense as character armor simply translated to more health and less movement speed, making sense in Phantom being around Skyhammer/Arty’s health class.
If it was me I’d take the armor effect out, have Phantom around 125-135 health and a less visible cloak when moving and a katana in each loadout to emphasis he is better at close ranges compared to his other recon counterparts, so long as the katana keeps that movement limitation on the RMB stab and every other weapon doesn’t anymore.

So all in all from both perspectives as someone playing Phantom or against him, there were many changes that could’ve been but not if others were added as well, higher visibility would’ve made sense if they wanted it to be more protective, but less protection would’ve made sense if visibility stayed as how it was, making Phantom’s cloak active even when detected made little sense as detection from another recon would be Phantom’s hard counter and being able to turn invisible with a large shoot me sign over ones head is redundant, especially since a specific monocle wearing closer range oriented recon was announced after Phantom who could be seen as a better counter than another heartbeat sensor throwing companion due to the fact the Redeye player would simply have to hear the now louder cloak noise to react.

As said before with the Refractive Armor’s effect the same could be said about the Katana changes, @Xavien as both the limiters were added and the range decreased.

(XavienX) #4

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.

(Sterling) #5

While I didn’t like to blast his face with a shotgun twice, just to get one-hit and finished (on the same attack) by his melee, I think the transparency got way too NOT transparent. The previous problem with Phantom was that it didn’t matter wether you detected him or not. If he was too close, you were already dead.

(Amerika) #6

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.

(watsyurdeal) #7

He isn’t anymore because they nerfed that aspect of him to shit.

I mean, yes, you can be effective with him using your gun, but it’s pretty clear even from his taunts and the fact that he has a katana that melee is basically like his second ability.

I know you don’t like the idea of making him like the Spy from TF2, but that imo is the only way I can see him being more than a pubstomper against people who’ve never dealt with him before.

The armor is cheap, plain and simple, and attacking while cloaked is basically not going to be balanced with the speed of the game as it is. It works in Tribes because people were moving at insanely high speed in different directions, but in this game it’d only work if Phantom had to walk while cloaked to stay invisible, and even then, he’s only able to 1 hit Sparks, Kira, Proxy, and Aura, all of which are rarely seen in comp.

I think if anything, his Katana should be buffed if they’re going to keep this turn speed thing, as well as make attacks while cloaked not possible so cloak can actually be good at hiding Phantom even in plain sight of enemy players.

Otherwise I can’t see a reason to ever use him, I would be much more valuable to my team as Sawbonez or Bushwacka.

(Amerika) #8

I’ll honestly never understand the appeal of getting kills in that method and I think that’s the mindset of most players across a broad range of games and even genres. As you probably know stealth characters, regardless of game/genres, are pretty divisive and tend to only be loved by those playing them. I also don’t think they mesh well with Dirty Bomb in general as the game is heavily aim reliant and I think it should remain that way.

You’ll just never get me to agree that Dirty Bomb needs a TF2 spy. Especially when DB isn’t balanced in the same way as TF2 where you can always have a counter around if needed. I wouldn’t mind seeing some things changed or making him similar to what you want but with HEAVY restrictions (not able to attack for a second after uncloaking + loud noise when it happens).

If he changes into that then I guess he does. But the Spy is one of the reasons why I really dislike TF2. That and the severe lack of movement options in the game. It feels like you’re moving in jello. And everyone is also defined by their ability and only have that ability as opposed to being equipped with basic guns too.

(watsyurdeal) #9

My main argument? Because if a stealth class can’t get behind the enemy, without flanking like everyone else can, then what is the point?

I can flank people with any other 110 hp class and still be able to do more for my team than Phantom can, hell I can flank with Fragger and still do more.

The way I see it, until cloak is 100% invisible, I can’t see Phantom being used for anything else than a pubstomping class. Which is sad because it really would not take that much to make Phantom into a truly great picking class, like killing the Medics so the enemy team is down 1 or both Medics, or killing Vasilli so your can team can push without having to worry about being gibbed instantly from a distance.

The only reason Spy felt cheap is because a, he could disguise, b, his bacsktab was an instant kill, and c, because countering Spy on pubs is retarded. Nobody checks, nobody calls anything out, you literally have to be in front of them for them to notice. And nowdays Spy has so many counters he’s basically worthless.

The difference between Spy and Phantom, is Phantom actually has a gun, and before he was nerfed he had enough hp to be very durable in close range, more so than Vasilli.

So, I think the idea of making his cloak completely invisible, in exchange for having to decloak to attack would work REALLY well. And actually make him useful for more than picking on lvl 7 players. I can see smart Phantom getting more than a couple of picks in a single life or two, then switching to something else once the paranoia starts going up.

(XavienX) #10

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.[/quote]

Yea I know, but it was his main concept though. I mean, there’s a reason why in Alpha stages he only carried a pistol. Although you could just use his smg, but other people want to be more melee focused and pull out his smg in other cases but without furthermore good tweaking, it’ll be really hard.
And yes I know the Devs are planning to tweak him.

(Amerika) #11

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.[/quote]

Yea I know, but it was his main concept though. I mean, there’s a reason why in Alpha stages he only carried a pistol. Although you could just use his smg, but other people want to be more melee focused and pull out his smg in other cases but without furthermore good tweaking, it’ll be really hard.
And yes I know the Devs are planning to tweak him.[/quote]

He also had a rush/lunge attack at some point too. Also, Fragger and Thunder were combined to be a character called Dazzler. My point is they didn’t release him as a melee merc/fully invisible merc after a lot of screwing around (with him and a lot of mercs). My guess is because it just wasn’t fun for people who constantly got rushed down and it doesn’t fit in a game where gunplay/aim is such a dominating force.

It was never his main concept. Again, look at his release and the rolecall trailer + the following nerfs. If his main concept was to be a melee merc he’d still be chopping people down 24/7. You want him to be a melee merc but what you want and what the developers put out are two entirely different things.

(Amerika) #12

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;74522”]My main argument? Because if a stealth class can’t get behind the enemy, without flanking like everyone else can, then what is the point?

I can flank people with any other 110 hp class and still be able to do more for my team than Phantom can, hell I can flank with Fragger and still do more.

The way I see it, until cloak is 100% invisible, I can’t see Phantom being used for anything else than a pubstomping class. Which is sad because it really would not take that much to make Phantom into a truly great picking class, like killing the Medics so the enemy team is down 1 or both Medics, or killing Vasilli so your can team can push without having to worry about being gibbed instantly from a distance.

The only reason Spy felt cheap is because a, he could disguise, b, his bacsktab was an instant kill, and c, because countering Spy on pubs is retarded. Nobody checks, nobody calls anything out, you literally have to be in front of them for them to notice. And nowdays Spy has so many counters he’s basically worthless.

The difference between Spy and Phantom, is Phantom actually has a gun, and before he was nerfed he had enough hp to be very durable in close range, more so than Vasilli.

So, I think the idea of making his cloak completely invisible, in exchange for having to decloak to attack would work REALLY well. And actually make him useful for more than picking on lvl 7 players. I can see smart Phantom getting more than a couple of picks in a single life or two, then switching to something else once the paranoia starts going up.[/quote]

His HP was nerfed by 10 down from 120 to 110 (and 10 more than Vassili). Not sure how that is a real gamebreaker. Also, as we’ve discussed before, but you always forget to add in to these discussions, using the cloak to cross areas where you’d normally take damage right now is a huge advantage for a flanking class. Just because you don’t want to acknowledge it doesn’t mean it isn’t there and isn’t a big plus on his resume. I use it and I’m certain you use it in that manner all the time. Hell, you can even take a FEL IX headshot and survive if you have at least half your cloak up.

Killing medics or Vassili without any real counter and not being seen is the definition of cheap. Would it be great for a team to have? Of course…that can’t be argued. Somebody who could slip in and kill some valuable players exactly as they will go on a long spawn would be awesome. Would it be great for the game or something that would be viewed as highly skilled by the community? No. It would be outright poison.

If they changed his cloak to only be a very short duration but completely invisible, required a full second before you could attack after uncloaking and it made a noise then I’d be a bit more onboard. But that would destroy what I currently find fun with the class. The intelligence required to make his refractive armor work in your favor in tons of different situations is what I enjoy. I would not enjoy walking up behind somebody who had no way to counter me and right clicking them and giggling.

(watsyurdeal) #13

[quote=“Amerika;74558”]

His HP was nerfed by 10 down from 120 to 110 (and 10 more than Vassili). Not sure how that is a real gamebreaker. Also, as we’ve discussed before, but you always forget to add in to these discussions, using the cloak to cross areas where you’d normally take damage right now is a huge advantage for a flanking class. Just because you don’t want to acknowledge it doesn’t mean it isn’t there and isn’t a big plus on his resume. I use it and I’m certain you use it in that manner all the time. Hell, you can even take a FEL IX headshot and survive if you have at least half your cloak up.[/quote]

It’s not a game breaker but you’re missing my point

What does he offer that Sawbonez, Bushwacka, or Fletcher don’t?

What does his cloak do well? It’s defientely not getting behind people, because you can see him coming from in front of enemy lines with ease. So you’re forced to flank…tell me how you can’t do that with the 3 I mentioned, and still have more to offer than Phantom? Fletcher and Bush can plant and defuse, and Sawbonez well…he’s the most played Medic, that says it all.

[quote=“Amerika;74558”]
Killing medics or Vassili without any real counter and not being seen is the definition of cheap. Would it be great for a team to have? Of course…that can’t be argued. Somebody who could slip in and kill some valuable players exactly as they will go on a long spawn would be awesome. Would it be great for the game or something that would be viewed as highly skilled by the community? No. It would be outright poison.[/quote]

Depends on how you balance it, the problem with Phantom was and still is two main things.

If you see him, he’ll tank about 75 damage before he actually starts taking damage normally, so he can use that while cloaked to close in, lunge, and finish you off with a swipe, and if you’re a Merc with 100 hp or less, he can one shot you with Chopper.

And the second thing of course is being able to attack while cloaked, that is bullshit, I will agree with that 100%.

Having to force Phantom to decloak first before he attacks is a perfect balance. As it solves both of these problems while allowing him to receive the buffs he needs to do his job.

[quote=“Amerika;74558”]
If they changed his cloak to only be a very short duration but completely invisible, required a full second before you could attack after uncloaking and it made a noise then I’d be a bit more onboard. But that would destroy what I currently find fun with the class. The intelligence required to make his refractive armor work in your favor in tons of different situations is what I enjoy. I would not enjoy walking up behind somebody who had no way to counter me and right clicking them and giggling.[/quote]

A 1/2 second or 3/4 second delay to cloak and decloak, and you having to be fully uncloaked before you could attack is more than enough given the time to kill in this game.

And if you’re worried about someone killing you from behind without you knowing it…welcome to Dirty Bomb, I flank people the vast majority of the time with Nader and Proxy because that’s the best way to get kills. So this would literally be no different, especially since you get an audio cue and plenty of time to put bullets in his head before he could attack you.

(XavienX) #14

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.[/quote]

Yea I know, but it was his main concept though. I mean, there’s a reason why in Alpha stages he only carried a pistol. Although you could just use his smg, but other people want to be more melee focused and pull out his smg in other cases but without furthermore good tweaking, it’ll be really hard.
And yes I know the Devs are planning to tweak him.[/quote]

He also had a rush/lunge attack at some point too. Also, Fragger and Thunder were combined to be a character called Dazzler. My point is they didn’t release him as a melee merc/fully invisible merc after a lot of screwing around (with him and a lot of mercs). My guess is because it just wasn’t fun for people who constantly got rushed down and it doesn’t fit in a game where gunplay/aim is such a dominating force.

It was never his main concept. Again, look at his release and the rolecall trailer + the following nerfs. If his main concept was to be a melee merc he’d still be chopping people down 24/7. You want him to be a melee merc but what you want and what the developers put out are two entirely different things.[/quote]

@Amerika Yea ik what you’re trying to say, but as @Watsyurdeal said, as a ability that’s supposed to cloak Phantom, he’s still quite visible and makes a loud ass noise which decreases the chances of using the katana even more. If you use the smg and go straight up on them, people basically use the cloak as a shield which defeats the purpose even more. Ya know what I’m saying?
And yes, I understand everyone has really different opinions sadly .-.

(Amerika) #15

How does his shield, the one they advertised and he’s supposed to have, defeat the purpose of what they said he’d be? It’s called Refractive Armor. Not invisibility cloak. He’s not supposed to be invisible entirely. I do agree he’s too easy to see right now but only just barely.

If it makes you feel better a guy who should know better (level 36) just said I only pulled off the score I just did because I was playing Phantom.

(Sterling) #16

I just want to see Phantom having his refractive armor back to the release date’s transparency. His shield is less annoying, his melee isn’t bugged and people stopped playing him like they were in Chivalry. He can be great when used correctly.

Also:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/143137_o.gif

(Amerika) #17

It’s not a game breaker but you’re missing my point

What does he offer that Sawbonez, Bushwacka, or Fletcher don’t?

What does his cloak do well? It’s defientely not getting behind people, because you can see him coming from in front of enemy lines with ease. So you’re forced to flank…tell me how you can’t do that with the 3 I mentioned, and still have more to offer than Phantom? Fletcher and Bush can plant and defuse, and Sawbonez well…he’s the most played Medic, that says it all.

I already said what he offered in regards to his refractive armor. You completely ignored it yet again. Why are you ignoring all the points I’ve made and acting as if they don’t exist? I’ve already listed out just about everything outside of sitting still in dark corners to watch spawn waves pass (I do this often but I don’t think I’ve talked about it much). Which is rather hilarious when you pick the back people off as if you hunting ducks. And I’m not saying this is his best that we can expect. But I at least want to acknowledge what he can do pretty well right now.

And don’t try to justify one hit kills that are unavoidable and claim that any merc can do it. That’s not “Dirty Bomb”. Exactly how is a Proxy shooting you from behind where you have a chance to do a 180 and kill them the same as you being able to come up behind somebody and right click them to death without them seeing you or being able to react? Nobody gets upset because the Proxy flanked you because you get at least some chance to fight back. LOTS of people, as you full well know, got pretty upset with Phantom at launch because most situations were either you had no chance to fight back or even if you did and caught him early you still died.

(Dawnlazy) #18

I get plenty upset when a Proxy flanks me and starts shooting one million peas that throw my aim into space with the Hochfir.

(watsyurdeal) #19

[quote=“Amerika;74678”]

I already said what he offered in regards to his refractive armor. You completely ignored it yet again. Why are you ignoring all the points I’ve made and acting as if they don’t exist? I’ve already listed out just about everything outside of sitting still in dark corners to watch spawn waves pass (I do this often but I don’t think I’ve talked about it much). Which is rather hilarious when you pick the back people off as if you hunting ducks. And I’m not saying this is his best that we can expect. But I at least want to acknowledge what he can do pretty well right now.[/quote]

Because it doesn’t AT ALL fit with the idea of him being a stealthy merc

He shouldn’t have the armor, aka damage sponge, in the first freaking place. If the enemy can see Phantom coming from far off, then the cloak has already failed it’s job, and all the armor does is make him more frustrating to deal with in terms of counter play. And due to the lack of decent invisibility, it’s frustrating for the Phantom user because he’s basically just a target that’s only barely less visible than someone next to him.

It’s a freaking failure, just because you can use him on pubs does not validate him in anyway, try to get the same results with min level 10 servers or in scrims or 5v5 matches. Try to justify using him over Sawbonez who can revive and heal, or Bush who can place turrets, and those are way better at flanking mind you, and plant bombs.

You can get away with a lot on pubs because you’re playing with a lot of inexperienced players, it doesn’t mean the merc is balanced.

[quote=“Amerika;74678”]
And don’t try to justify one hit kills that are unavoidable and claim that any merc can do it. That’s not “Dirty Bomb”. Exactly how is a Proxy shooting you from behind where you have a chance to do a 180 and kill them the same as you being able to come up behind somebody and right click them to death without them seeing you or being able to react? Nobody gets upset because the Proxy flanked you because you get at least some chance to fight back. LOTS of people, as you full well know, got pretty upset with Phantom at launch because most situations were either you had no chance to fight back or even if you did and caught him early you still died.[/quote]

Naders nades, Fraggers nade, Proxy’s mines, Vasilli and his Sniper Rifle, the freaking Grandeur can one shot Aura from the hip, Shotguns like the Remburg.

There’s a ton of things that can kill you from the front, and yet those are fine, so how is an attack from behind any different? Even if you can do 180 and turn around the fact that they got the first strike basically means against any decent player you are boned.

(Despaniard) #20

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.[/quote]

The day the katana becomes available to other mercs is the day i go on a rage-induced killing spree through as many servers as i can and make everyone regret nerfing Phantom