Was Phantom overnerfed ?

(XavienX) #21

Which was a bit too much for a melee cloaked focused merc.[/quote]

He was never melee focused. Watch the rolecall video. People WANT him to be a melee merc but he isn’t a melee merc. His ability is the refractive (not invisible) armor. The Katana is not his ability. The Katana will also be given to other mercs eventually.

I get why people think he’s melee focused but he’s just not. He’s slightly better at it than most mercs but that isn’t his gameplan.[/quote]

The day the katana becomes available to other mercs is the day i go on a rage-induced killing spree through as many servers as i can and make everyone regret nerfing Phantom[/quote]

I guess that’s a good way to start a boycott. Phantom Chavez for pres!

(Someordinaryguy) #22

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;74693”][quote=“Amerika;74678”]

I already said what he offered in regards to his refractive armor. You completely ignored it yet again. Why are you ignoring all the points I’ve made and acting as if they don’t exist? I’ve already listed out just about everything outside of sitting still in dark corners to watch spawn waves pass (I do this often but I don’t think I’ve talked about it much). Which is rather hilarious when you pick the back people off as if you hunting ducks. And I’m not saying this is his best that we can expect. But I at least want to acknowledge what he can do pretty well right now.[/quote]

Because it doesn’t AT ALL fit with the idea of him being a stealthy merc

He shouldn’t have the armor, aka damage sponge, in the first freaking place. If the enemy can see Phantom coming from far off, then the cloak has already failed it’s job, and all the armor does is make him more frustrating to deal with in terms of counter play. And due to the lack of decent invisibility, it’s frustrating for the Phantom user because he’s basically just a target that’s only barely less visible than someone next to him.

It’s a freaking failure, just because you can use him on pubs does not validate him in anyway, try to get the same results with min level 10 servers or in scrims or 5v5 matches. Try to justify using him over Sawbonez who can revive and heal, or Bush who can place turrets, and those are way better at flanking mind you, and plant bombs.

You can get away with a lot on pubs because you’re playing with a lot of inexperienced players, it doesn’t mean the merc is balanced.

If you get attacked by Phantom a lot, try to get someone to watch your back. He’s screwed versus groups of people prepared for him- even if you get 1 (maybe 2-3 if you’re lucky) the rest will turn you into minced meat. Whenever I play Phantom I focus on lone wolf players or wait for my teammates to use them as a distraction (and vice versa) That’s what Phantom should be- an assassin not a bullet sponge SMG spammer

(ttownjoe) #23

no he wasn’t overnerfed he still has a fn OP shield that should be removed from the game.

(Someordinaryguy) #24

Just backpedal and shoot him, explosives work too…btw git gud

(spicyHarp) #25

Nader nades are difficult to direct hit, Fragger nades needs cooking, Proxy mines have downtime and is ineffective to use offensively, snipers are high risk high reward, Shotguns are the same too, as aura/proxy both have very low hp.

Instead of a balanced ability, we had 200 hp half invisible ninjas running around RMBing people down with little risk, and a lot of kills. Then they just cloak and run away safely.
Just because they all 1 shot weak mercs doesn’t mean they are all fair.

(watsyurdeal) #26

[quote=“spicyHarp;75003”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;74693”]

Naders nades, Fraggers nade, Proxy’s mines, Vasilli and his Sniper Rifle, the freaking Grandeur can one shot Aura from the hip, Shotguns like the Remburg.

There’s a ton of things that can kill you from the front, and yet those are fine, so how is an attack from behind any different? Even if you can do 180 and turn around the fact that they got the first strike basically means against any decent player you are boned.
[/quote]

Nader nades are difficult to direct hit, Fragger nades needs cooking, Proxy mines have downtime and is ineffective to use offensively, snipers are high risk high reward, Shotguns are the same too, as aura/proxy both have very low hp.

Instead of a balanced ability, we had 200 hp half invisible ninjas running around RMBing people down with little risk, and a lot of kills. Then they just cloak and run away safely.
Just because they all 1 shot weak mercs doesn’t mean they are all fair.[/quote]

You completely missed my point

All those things kill people in one hit from the front and nobody seems to complain, they’ve pretty much accepted it as part of the Meta.

Yet when a stealth class, has to get behind someone to land an attack sufficient enough to kill most classes. That’s a problem, and not Dirty Bomb.

I’m sorry but if Splash Damage’s idea of stealthy merc, is a guy who has trouble getting into close range because people can see his cloak, and their solution is give him a damage sponge ability, I think Splash needs to rethink Phantom.

Because the vast majority of the problems with the class, had jack squat to do with the fact he could 1 hit ko Aura, Sparks, Proxy, and Kira. It has more to do with the fact that they could do NOTHING about it even when they spotted him.

The counter play is terrible, that is why people hated Phantom, Fragger, Aura, etc.

(spicyHarp) #27

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;75004”]

You completely missed my point

All those things kill people in one hit from the front and nobody seems to complain, they’ve pretty much accepted it as part of the Meta.

Yet when a stealth class, has to get behind someone to land an attack sufficient enough to kill most classes. That’s a problem, and not Dirty Bomb.[/quote]

People are okay with those things because they are avoidable and have risk involved.
If a nader lands a direct on a proxy, she deserves the kill. If you see a fragger backing off, you know he is cooking that nade. Squishy mercs 1 shotting other squishy mercs who also have access to shotguns is high risk, and if you kill them in 1 shot its all fair game.

And no, phantom does not need to get “behind” others to get kills, wall jumping and not wasting cloak is enough.

(spicyHarp) #28

the only thing you can do against a good pre-patch phantom is run, and then they will just gun you down.

(Reddeadcap) #29

You mean Post-Patch?

Which, like it’s been mentioned before can be done by anyone else.

Is his Refractive Armor good at making him invisible besides when standing still? Not exactly since it makes a loud noise even when standing still and even when moving while crouched he’s easy to spot, and I don’t mean “You can see him if you focus a bit” I mean his invisiblity doesn’t even matter since characters have easy to distinguish profiles that even with it on he’s easy to notice.

Is this countered by his Refractive Armor keeping the large protection it offered? No, which was the main complaint and was change to be less protective, Understandably so and makes much sense as armor in Dirty Bomb would translate to movement speed and total health and I really believe DB should’ve kept with Phantom’s original design where the armor would be just an invisiblity cloak, 120 health and him maybe having a simple detection method that wouldn’t be as effective as the rest.

An understandable change was that it’s recharge was too fast and the damage that should bypass his armor would be utterly negated no matter how severe, causing no damage to Phatom, as for melee weapons, it’d make sense that he would have the katana moreso than anyone else, by default loadouts only Proxy would’ve had the bat, everyone else would’ve had the beckhill except for recons who’d have the stiletto and finally Phantom and Redeye with a katana and Khukri respectively.

(spicyHarp) #30

[quote=“Redcap;75103”]

You mean Post-Patch?[/quote]

No, Pre-patch katana had a ~2 second damage window, making it nearly impossible to miss. So many times have Post-patch phantoms charged at me and try to RMB me down, and never hit me because of the short damage window and turn limiter.

Phantom we have now is fairly weak, and needs a rework. SD should be balancing completely around pubs, as phantom was never intended to be a comp merc tbh.

(Borganism) #31

Im going to throw another viewpoint in the ring, I think they did well with the nerf without over nerfing. There are a few tweaks that could probably happen, but in my opinion he is balanaced.

If you want to talk about ‘he doesnt get used in comp so make him stronger’, what about the other classes that dont get used in comp, should they all be buffed too? I doubt arty is used at all, but I quite like him after the last patch and think they made him a viable choice now. While comp remains 5v5 there will always be useless mercs and mercs that you must have.

I find that with all the airstrikes and artillery and gunshots and announcers going off all the time I only hear Phantom when he is close enough to be a problem most of the time.

It used to be that as a kek10 bushy I would drop a whole clip into him and die while reloading or swapping weapon. Now I have a chance.

Everyone always talks about ‘he can only one shot mercs certain mercs’ but thats only if you have full health at the time, and a double swipe with quick attack seems to kill me pretty damn quick no matter my health. That still remains the truth even now.

As for the can he be seen too easily debate, I think they got it right now. When he is standing still he is practically invisible and you have to be running pretty recklessly to become so invisible that you stand out. Cooldown is good now that it cant be abused.

Anyway, thats my humble opinion coming from a long term quake player. Oh and inb4 ‘git good’

(Reddeadcap) #32

[quote=“spicyHarp;75113”]

That’s true they certainly should’ve set the turn limiters just to the katana’s RMB in that case as that was how it was promoted.

(Kevin) #33

Played a game last night with Phantom. I stood still and I was seen. Yes, Phantom is balanced now sarcasm! Lets also mention that from the 5 games I played last night only 1 other person played Phantom. Only those who don’t play him at all say he is balanced or OP, when he is actually not really that good of a merc anymore.

(spicyHarp) #34

I play beckhill knife phantom all the time. He is surprisingly good and can get the first shot off most of the firefights. Good players will hear you, but won’t be able to pin-point your location. The first few headshots really makes a difference whether or not you win the gun fight. I’m not saying phantom is OP, but he is certainly viable.

And if people hear those buzzing noise from your cloak, they will search for you. The cloak was never supposed to be fully invisible.

(Sussepus) #35

why make another phantom thread that have the exact same discussion as 20 others? :tongue:

Recently i have seen several phantom players outright pwn the enemy team.
maybe the merc isnt THAT bad after all :wink:

(Someordinaryguy) #36

[quote=“Sussepus;75275”]why make another phantom thread that have the exact same discussion as 20 others? :tongue:

Recently i have seen several phantom players outright pwn the enemy team.
maybe the merc isnt THAT bad after all :wink:[/quote]

Yeah you can still be “effective” with him but only in pubs or when the enemy team is bad/distracted/not cordinated

(Kaos88) #37

He is fine. Thought i would throw that out there. Before the devs think this is the view of the whole community and mess him up again and turn him back into the annoying little shit he was before :wink:

(neverplayseriou) #38

I’ve actually traded up a golden excellent operative for phantom and I’m saving for him atm :stuck_out_tongue:

(Kevin) #39

If fine means not many people playing phantom anymore or at all, then your right; might as well remove him from the game and reimburse everyone who purchased him.

(Amerika) #40

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;74693”][quote=“Amerika;74678”]

I already said what he offered in regards to his refractive armor. You completely ignored it yet again. Why are you ignoring all the points I’ve made and acting as if they don’t exist? I’ve already listed out just about everything outside of sitting still in dark corners to watch spawn waves pass (I do this often but I don’t think I’ve talked about it much). Which is rather hilarious when you pick the back people off as if you hunting ducks. And I’m not saying this is his best that we can expect. But I at least want to acknowledge what he can do pretty well right now.[/quote]

Because it doesn’t AT ALL fit with the idea of him being a stealthy merc

He shouldn’t have the armor, aka damage sponge, in the first freaking place. If the enemy can see Phantom coming from far off, then the cloak has already failed it’s job, and all the armor does is make him more frustrating to deal with in terms of counter play. And due to the lack of decent invisibility, it’s frustrating for the Phantom user because he’s basically just a target that’s only barely less visible than someone next to him.

It’s a freaking failure, just because you can use him on pubs does not validate him in anyway, try to get the same results with min level 10 servers or in scrims or 5v5 matches. Try to justify using him over Sawbonez who can revive and heal, or Bush who can place turrets, and those are way better at flanking mind you, and plant bombs.

You can get away with a lot on pubs because you’re playing with a lot of inexperienced players, it doesn’t mean the merc is balanced.

He wasn’t being used in competitive 5v5 before the nerf for obvious reasons. These reasons have been cited multiple times so I won’t go into them here. He’s always been a pub merc and probably always will be even with changes. Also, he’s not a medic or engineer. You trying to justify his use compared to a medic or engineer instead of his use over Vassili or Redeye makes what you’re trying to say pretty hard to read/believe.

And the fact that you are trying to compare a shot that somebody had to make with an ability to walking up behind somebody, completely invisible and right clicking them is just not a good argument. Yeah, I could hipfire somebody with the Grandeur in the head. But being able to do that consistently is what is hard. What is not hard is being completely invisible and right clicking somebody to death.

And if you don’t understand the difference between giving somebody a small chance to fight back and no chance, well, there isn’t much we can keep talking about here. Also, many times I’ve been attacked from behind, by very good players in pubs, scrims and matches. And I’ve won some of those exchanges. I wouldn’t have won if a player, one who isn’t even very skilled yet, used a completely invisible cloak and came up behind me and meleed me.

Also, please don’t ignore obvious positives as if they don’t exist just because you don’t want them to exist. That’s not good reasoning. You can point out the positive aspects of his current form while then stating why they shouldn’t have that and what would replace it. Outright ignoring it every time it’s brought up and never mentioning it yourself is the worst form of debate and actually sways this conversation away from being a debate and into more unsavory conversation categories.