Vassili, that cancer

(elegantRoyalty) #41

[quote=“Parmenion;23693”]The real issue with snipers is the no revive head shot, it’s so easy to HS with vassili i don’t understand why we can’t revive.
It’s already frustrating to get OS by a camper and we must wait full time with no chance of revive.

Plus the firerate is way too fast. The sniper should be close to TF2 for a good balance.[/quote]

well its certainly a problem with it , but i think its more the array of issues .

first up its straight overpowered for this type of game one shot kills at extreme range when there is no other weapon in game that can go up against it. the ridiculous ease of use it has, i dont know if its the game in general or a product of the scope but its far too forgiving , you can be early or late and miss and it still counts and hits the head its like the scope makes the head hit box 4X its actual size, it really does have a low skill to use threshold. with the high rate of fire, speed of scoping and lacking any charge up time like TF 2 uses.
Then you have it being a fair Deathmatch weapon dropped into a corridor team environment where flanking is a non starter and they only have to look in one direction thus discarding both of the negatives that balance it in its normal environment.

but the biggest argument for me is its simply not fun , you get insta gibbed with no revive possible by an enemy you cant see most of the time and have no way to play against it your just the victim of what was frankly too easy a shot to make. you dont get out played you get cheesed and its simply dull and boring.

(Humbug) #42

i think there should be some sway, but a “hold breath bar” that removes it.
the problem is IMO that he can spam shots without any penalty
also jumpsniping is to powerful

(brawnyJester) #43

If headshots didn’t gib sniper would be useless. Since you have time between MOA shots to revive someone with impunity.

Revive trains are ridiculous as it is and if you think landing headshots on people who actually know how to play is easy in a competitive format you are stupid.

Want to know the true cancer of this game? Buy fragger or pubstomp with Rhino.

(alertRidge) #44

[quote=“Parmenion;23693”]The real issue with snipers is the no revive head shot, it’s so easy to HS with vassili i don’t understand why we can’t revive.
It’s already frustrating to get OS by a camper and we must wait full time with no chance of revive.

Plus the firerate is way too fast. The sniper should be close to TF2 for a good balance.[/quote]

I have to quote this, since I agree that sniping in this game is incredibly easy. I have tried Vassili several times now, and I am sure anybody that is decent with aiming can land a headshot. I think @Humbug has a decent compensation to re-introduce the sway but with a holding-breath option.

The reviving part is a bit offtopic, but there needs to be a harder punishment for getting revived. Revivetrains are a bit out of hand. When you are revived you are not stunned, you can’t get hit for some time, but you are able to shoot the enemy. Seems a bit unfair since your enemy won the fight, and by deing and getting revived you now have THE advantage instead of having a small new opportunity.

(Ardez1) #45

[quote=“alertRidge;23777”][quote=“Parmenion;23693”]The real issue with snipers is the no revive head shot, it’s so easy to HS with vassili i don’t understand why we can’t revive.
It’s already frustrating to get OS by a camper and we must wait full time with no chance of revive.

Plus the firerate is way too fast. The sniper should be close to TF2 for a good balance.[/quote]

I have to quote this, since I agree that sniping in this game is incredibly easy. I have tried Vassili several times now, and I am sure anybody that is decent with aiming can land a headshot. I think @Humbug has a decent compensation to re-introduce the sway but with a holding-breath option.

The reviving part is a bit offtopic, but there needs to be a harder punishment for getting revived. Revivetrains are a bit out of hand. When you are revived you are not stunned, you can’t get hit for some time, but you are able to shoot the enemy. Seems a bit unfair since your enemy won the fight, and by deing and getting revived you now have THE advantage instead of having a small new opportunity.[/quote]

The moment you shoot after getting revived(or perform an action) you lose the damage shield. And the reviving is PART of the fight. The fight isn’t over until the enemies are gibbed. You may have won the initial exchange, but the fight isn’t over.

(watsyurdeal) #46

The gibbing on headshot is ALSO not an issue

The issue I have and a lot of others do, is that the only real way to deal with Snipers is to go Sniper.

Without one on your team to counter their’s they basically have free reign on your team mates.

That is an issue, and the counters to dealing with aren’t that effective. Like getting in close range to deal with him when a bodyshot basically allows him to kill you in less than half a second without headshots. Or the Focus Augment negating flinch, making it harder to throw off his aim and prevent him from killing you.

Until Phantom gets in the game Snipers will be an issue, how good the Sniper is shouldn’t be the only risk they have to deal with. Because then you end up with skilled players who can not be shut down, and the game basically stops.

(Ardez1) #47

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;23790”]The gibbing on headshot is ALSO not an issue

The issue I have and a lot of others do, is that the only real way to deal with Snipers is to go Sniper.

Without one on your team to counter their’s they basically have free reign on your team mates.

That is an issue, and the counters to dealing with aren’t that effective. Like getting in close range to deal with him when a bodyshot basically allows him to kill you in less than half a second without headshots. Or the Focus Augment negating flinch, making it harder to throw off his aim and prevent him from killing you.

Until Phantom gets in the game Snipers will be an issue[/quote]

Phantom, Redeye and Aimee(also a sniper, but oh well), will all be excellent at countering snipers. Phantom will be invisible, Redeye will have that smoke and force Vassili to rely complete on his sensor and Aimee can also snipe.

(chamoiseeIncrease) #48

I think the instagib with no revive is ok and normal, the problem is that’s too easy to gib someone. As already said by people who played Vassili, you can fire too early, too late, while jumping; you still land your shot.
In addition to that, if you are not even forced to scope to shoot, and at close range, face to face with an assault merc, it’s so easy to win; few hits and you are good.

Please forgive my english, I hope it’s understandable :slight_smile:

(Ardez1) #49

[quote=“chamoiseeIncrease;23792”]I think the instagib with no revive is ok and normal, the problem is that’s too easy to gib someone. As already said by people who played Vassili, you can fire too early, too late, while jumping; you still land your shot.
In addition to that, if you are not even forced to scope to shoot, and at close range, face to face with an assault merc, it’s so easy to win; one shot and you are good.

Please forgive my english, I hope it’s understandable :)[/quote]

Skyhammer, Fragger, Nader, Fletcher, Proxy, Arty… All of these mercs have the potential to instantgib… and they can do this while jumping :smiley: The only difference is you REACTIVELY avoid death and with Vassili you need to PROACTIVELY avoid death. Somehow this means that players believe Vassili is OP. Not true, you just need to alter your playstyle. When you are in ranked and somebody calls out “SCOPE” it is a signal to change your play and work around that sniper. You still need to do your job, but with more proactive movements and less predictability. The difference in a pub is that it will rarely be called out. You need to keep your eyes open and check the enemy merc list when you get a chance to check.

(watsyurdeal) #50

[quote=“Ardez;23791”]
Phantom, Redeye and Aimee(also a sniper, but oh well), will all be excellent at countering snipers. Phantom will be invisible, Redeye will have that smoke and force Vassili to rely complete on his sensor and Aimee can also snipe.[/quote]

So smoke up the sight line, pick him with the goggles on, or just allow your team safe passage?

Perfect! Exactly the sort of thing I am looking for.

(Fleshpound) #51

[quote=“Ardez;23791”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;23790”]The gibbing on headshot is ALSO not an issue

The issue I have and a lot of others do, is that the only real way to deal with Snipers is to go Sniper.

Without one on your team to counter their’s they basically have free reign on your team mates.

That is an issue, and the counters to dealing with aren’t that effective. Like getting in close range to deal with him when a bodyshot basically allows him to kill you in less than half a second without headshots. Or the Focus Augment negating flinch, making it harder to throw off his aim and prevent him from killing you.

Until Phantom gets in the game Snipers will be an issue[/quote]

Phantom, Redeye and Aimee(also a sniper, but oh well), will all be excellent at countering snipers. Phantom will be invisible, Redeye will have that smoke and force Vassili to rely complete on his sensor and Aimee can also snipe.[/quote]

What about Stroker and Thunder?? I hope that you know the “skills” of these two. :sunglasses:

(Ardez1) #52

[quote=“BanditFleshpound;23804”][quote=“Ardez;23791”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;23790”]The gibbing on headshot is ALSO not an issue

The issue I have and a lot of others do, is that the only real way to deal with Snipers is to go Sniper.

Without one on your team to counter their’s they basically have free reign on your team mates.

That is an issue, and the counters to dealing with aren’t that effective. Like getting in close range to deal with him when a bodyshot basically allows him to kill you in less than half a second without headshots. Or the Focus Augment negating flinch, making it harder to throw off his aim and prevent him from killing you.

Until Phantom gets in the game Snipers will be an issue[/quote]

Phantom, Redeye and Aimee(also a sniper, but oh well), will all be excellent at countering snipers. Phantom will be invisible, Redeye will have that smoke and force Vassili to rely complete on his sensor and Aimee can also snipe.[/quote]

What about Stroker and Thunder?? I hope that you know the “skills” of these two. :sunglasses: [/quote]

Molotov and stun grenade? Those are equally as useful against Vassili as Fragger is. Still useful, but not the same thing as a counter.

(srswizard) #53

Y’all need to unlock Vassili and go dominate the comp scene, there’s plenty of room for OP snipers in there ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

(Ardez1) #54

I think your special symbols are preventing the text from being seen, so I removed them :slight_smile:

(Amerika) #55

I should make a movie on anti-Vassili movement tech so people know why they are getting killed so easily against the class. Some of you probably don’t realize just how easy it is to avoid being sniped in many situations. Here is a quick list of things I see people do all the time…even experienced players.

  1. Players who run in a straight line. Especially out of spawn but even down roads while heading towards an area where enemy players might located.
  2. Players who do not use stuttered movement while moving in general or random jumps/wall jumps. This greatly impacts whether or not a Vassili can hit you or even see you in some cases. You’ll see me and others zigzagging back and forth a lot randomly (don’t make it predictable). It’s not because it’s fun…it’s just good to do to avoid being shot by anybody and especially Vassili.
  3. Forgetting the other team has a Vassili and ADS’ing when you shouldn’t in the open.
  4. Doing things like repairing the EV or turning in an objective while not moving. You can strafe back and forth while doing these things and it can throw off a shot.
  5. Running across a road, even as Aura, in a straight line. You think the shot might be hard but to a practiced player it’s not even if you’re playing a fast class. I see this all the time near the halfway point of the EV section of Chapel.
  6. Jump instead of Super Jump when running. The super jump has recovery and makes your speed predictable after you land. Only use it if you are entering a place where you can’t be shot.
  7. Sometimes you’re just going to get shot and killed by a Vassili just like you would by any other Merc in the game. Accept it.

This stuff might be pretty basic but you’d be surprised just how many experienced players don’t do even half of it when there is an obviously good and aggressive Vassili on the other end. And if it’s the “sit in the back of spawn and camp” Vassili they are completely avoidable or harrassable and easy to kill in most situations anyway.

Also, I am not saying that some opinions on Vassili and his power is wrong. I’m just pointing out some things a lot of people might not know they are doing incorrectly in a lot of situations that might help alleviate the issue without changing the class.

(chamoiseeIncrease) #56

Well, it’s surely possible to avoid a sniper, but you have to be very careful, so figthing other players in the same time is mission impossible. If there is 2, or 3 snipers you can say goodbye to the fun.
All this make snipers too efficiency, IMO:

  • Unshakable when fired at (with the correct perk): impossible to “distract” at mid and far range
  • High RoF: like Arty’s rifle, but way deadlier
  • Big hitboxes (I can’t confirm that, but it seems): no need to be skilled
  • Jumping while zooming in: no need to expose themselves
  • No need to scope to shoot: deadly at mid and close range too

Again, I’m ok with snipes in general, never had problems with them, but I confess that in DB I sometimes quit a game because they stuck all the action.

It may be balanced when all classes will be available, but for now I think it’s not.

(brawnyJester) #57
  • No need to scope to shoot: deadly at mid and close range too

So you actually have zero clue about how sniping in DB works.

(Ardez1) #58

[quote=“chamoiseeIncrease;23825”]Well, it’s surely possible to avoid a sniper, but you have to be very careful, so figthing other players in the same time is mission impossible. If there is 2, or 3 snipers you can say goodbye to the fun.
All this make snipers too efficiency, IMO:

  • Unshakable when fired at (with the correct perk): impossible to “distract” at mid and far range
  • High RoF: like Arty’s rifle, but way deadlier
  • Big hitboxes (I can’t confirm that, but it seems): no need to be skilled
  • Jumping while zooming in: no need to expose themselves
  • No need to scope to shoot: deadly at mid and close range too

Again, I’m ok with snipes in general, never had problems with them, but I confess that in DB I sometimes quit a game because they stuck all the action.[/quote]

This game has a high skill cap. Part of that means multitasking. Avoiding snipers becomes natural and it is just another aspect of the game. It may be difficult for new players or inexperienced ones, but it is something that needs to be learned in a game like this.

-That would be the Focus perk, and even with it you still get camera shake. It is just reduced. 3 of his 8 loadouts have it.
-Depends on the Sniper he is using.
-Hitboxes aren’t as big as you seem to think they are. If you see them land impossible shots from spectating it is because of a spectate bug when somebody uses ADS.
-This can be quite difficult to pull off and needs lucky/good timing.
-Why should they be required to scope to fire the gun? Remember the Run & Gun part of the tutorial video? I have no issues fighting against a Vassili personally. I take it as a challenging part of the game. BTW, how much have you played as Vassili? How many kills have you had without being scoped(not as easy as you make it sound)? How many jump kills have you done? It sounds like a lot because you say it is so OP and easy to do. :slight_smile:

He is still a low HP merc with a fairly low RoF relative to other mercs. If you find yourself regularly 1v1ing him, you are doing it wrong. Call out his location to your team(x for ingame mic by default) and have a teammate help take him down. Or at least warn them he is nearby.

(elegantRoyalty) #59

puts me in mind of that scene from generation kill , a bunch of marines and there embedded reporter come under sniper fire. all the marines just get up and sprint straight line as fast possible for cover, reporters turn comes up and he dances around running side to side and trying to evade and all the marines are just staring at him wondering wtf hes doing.

20 odd years ago before old age and hard living slowed my reflexes and took its toll on my hand eye co ordination i was well a top tier quake 2 player and i have to say against a really good player none of that is going to do a iota of good for you . they dont aim at you , they see you they adjust they fire and the eye wont have time to catch up , they dont line up the shot and follow you, from sight to shoot its one fluid instant reaction. the screen could just go black after that frame where they see you it wont make any difference the checks already in the mail.

im not saying all your ideas are useless (the one about jumping is 50/50 against average to bad it might up your survival but against good to top your signing your death note.) they will help against average and bad campers, and they help against other weapons to , esp the not running straight at someone or standing still on objectives.

but a railgun wasnt a one hit kill if they had health and armour, the reload was long and the hit box’s were no where near as forgiving. the simple basic fact is the sniper riflers in this game are simply too good. the level of precision needed for hits to register is too low , in this game you can actually miss but still be given the hit. and all the normal balance and risks to make it fair are simply missing.

(brawnyJester) #60

The hitboxes aren’t any more forgiving than TF2(where they are huge depending on your ping) and people don’t complain about snipers there.