Useful Trinket Proposal + New Case Idea!

(n-x) #81

If you look at the levels in-game you see that DB has no problem with getting new players. From my experience, most players are under level 15-20 and with increasing level the amount of players decrease.

So one of the problems is player retention. And solving that problem with letting people grind/get bling is a horrible idea for me. Because you attract a completely wrong audience/condition the existing audience to focus on the wrong goals. This is already noticable in players on servers drooling over some cobalt/SE card instead of some high level game play.

And here comes the point. How the game was advertized and what is actually delivering. The game was advertized as “hardcore, back to the roots, good team play necessary”. While these are mostly buzz words, it still attracted players who were exactly looking for that and who wouldnt have started DB, if it were adertized with: “Collect 100 different trinkets. Get a rare outfits for your favorit merc. Take part in monthly wacky events!”

But because DB was advertized in one way but has developed in another way, you now have 2 extremes in your game. And while one side will probably never be able to convince the other, there are players in the grey area in between. And the “competitive” or maybe “try hard” side needs those players, because without competitive minded players there is no competition. So they need those players get their reward in playing the game and improving and not by mindless grind/RNG to get some bling.

And this is what your suggesion is promoting. You increase the importance on what should be a minor point. Pixel crack. The incentive to play the game is not playing the game but getting something for it. Whereas in my and some other players opinion the reward should be improving in the game and succeeding.

The problems this causes can be seen already in-game. There is no team/clan scene worth mentioning. And that in a game which very basic is team play.
Players dont improve or dont try to improve, because they get their reward anyway (see no-healing medics, non-ammo-dropping fire supports, stack repairing/defusing at level 20).

DB develops its strength and by this its selling point when you play in a team. And if they want to increase their play retention, they have to push this. Pixel crack will only keep players for so long before you have to give them new crack. And since DBs accessories are limited to cosmetics, those players will probably jump ship as soon as they find someone with better crack (aka deeper character customization, skill altering and so on).

(bgyoshi) #82

Or maybe players are just getting bored because there’s nothing exciting happening in the game. They abandoned making new content for a year because the community said they had to “balance the guns and fix the bugs” so naturally nothing changed and the game got stale.

New pixel crack is easy to make and it gives people a small goal to bridge the gap between major releases.

The “competitive” scene has never been popular and will continue to be unpopular for reasons unrelated to the lack of new content.

The money comes from the pubbers, the majority of players, buying stuff. Give them fun things to buy, and tease them by giving them less cool versions of the cool stuff for free.

But it’s important to keep the bigger content like maps and mercs coming, that’s what draws the tired out players back. And then you just get a good cycle of new and returning players.

(n-x) #83

@bgyoshi said:
Or maybe players are just getting bored because there’s nothing exciting happening in the game. They abandoned making new content for a year because the community said they had to “balance the guns and fix the bugs” so naturally nothing changed and the game got stale.

New pixel crack is easy to make and it gives people a small goal to bridge the gap between major releases.

The “competitive” scene has never been popular and will continue to be unpopular for reasons unrelated to the lack of new content.

The money comes from the pubbers, the majority of players, buying stuff. Give them fun things to buy, and tease them by giving them less cool versions of the cool stuff for free.

But it’s important to keep the bigger content like maps and mercs coming, that’s what draws the tired out players back. And then you just get a good cycle of new and returning players.

And I think here we differ in our opinion:

  1. The excitement shouldnt need to come from new content. The excitement should come from playing the game itself. From tight games, accomplishing something, succeed with friends and so on. If you need to keep releasing new stuff, then there is something wrong with the game itself. Because you only draw people in due to the “new and shiny” effect.

They never balanced the game completely and the game is still buggy! (And I think they will never be able to balance the game as a whole since you need another balance for 8vs8 pub rambo playstyle than for 5vs5 competitive)

  1. I would really like to hear, why in your opinion competitive is and will be unpopular. (If you dont want to derail this thread, please PM me)

  2. Money comes from people liking your product. I have spend enough money on DB to buy a game at retail price and I would spend more on it, if the game would go in a direction I agree with.

  3. I dont think new maps and mercs are really necessary atm. Maybe one or two good maps couldnt hurt. But putting out new mercs just for the sake of new mercs will not help the game.

(TheOmniscient) #84

@n-x said:

@bgyoshi said:
Or maybe players are just getting bored because there’s nothing exciting happening in the game. They abandoned making new content for a year because the community said they had to “balance the guns and fix the bugs” so naturally nothing changed and the game got stale.

New pixel crack is easy to make and it gives people a small goal to bridge the gap between major releases.

The “competitive” scene has never been popular and will continue to be unpopular for reasons unrelated to the lack of new content.

The money comes from the pubbers, the majority of players, buying stuff. Give them fun things to buy, and tease them by giving them less cool versions of the cool stuff for free.

But it’s important to keep the bigger content like maps and mercs coming, that’s what draws the tired out players back. And then you just get a good cycle of new and returning players.

And I think here we differ in our opinion:

  1. The excitement shouldnt need to come from new content. The excitement should come from playing the game itself. From tight games, accomplishing something, succeed with friends and so on. If you need to keep releasing new stuff, then there is something wrong with the game itself. Because you only draw people in due to the “new and shiny” effect.

They never balanced the game completely and the game is still buggy! (And I think they will never be able to balance the game as a whole since you need another balance for 8vs8 pub rambo playstyle than for 5vs5 competitive)

  1. I would really like to hear, why in your opinion competitive is and will be unpopular. (If you dont want to derail this thread, please PM me)

  2. Money comes from people liking your product. I have spend enough money on DB to buy a game at retail price and I would spend more on it, if the game would go in a direction I agree with.

  3. I dont think new maps and mercs are really necessary atm. Maybe one or two good maps couldnt hurt. But putting out new mercs just for the sake of new mercs will not help the game.

Money comes from people liking your content, which is almost entirely pubbers at this point. Competitive died two years ago, and its not coming back at this rate. I love my fun cards and all, but I love to play competitively, and when the comp scene bans half the shit, it isnt fun remotely. You don’t get the full experience of the game by banning:
Thunder, Aura, Sparks, Fletcher, Burst Rifles, Phantom, Vassili, Redeye, Aimee, Arty, Kira, Turtle… cause, you know, thats half the mercs. That just isnt fun. The balance isnt there for a comp scene to exist, since there are players like me, that want the scene to be raw, whereas some of the players want all annoyances banned.

The other thing is, the players that want comp, barely exist anymore. You have Me, Dawn, Mootsiy, Duupi, and a handful of others. Yet, actually some of these players like this idea, because its fresh, new, and fun. Players arent all ultra serious that love comp. They take that seriously, but love to have fun too. Keep this in mind.

The money comes from the biggest pot, I will reiterate, that is the pubbers. Last I checked, thats where 98% of players are atm, and where the biggest potential for cash is. I don’t know of anyone other than me and Sniff willing to throw around $1000 in a month randomly for this game, so they need the pubbers. (Yes, I spent $700 on this event, and $300 crafting week, USD).

To bring back any shred of hope for comp, you really need balance, which… is kind of a joke atm.

Content is necessary to keep people intersted, its why games die quickly if they don’t have it. Many players like Renspy, Kandyrew, etc… all left due to lack of content, and only took another look at DB due to Turtle. You need something fresh to keep people interested, most people are incapable of doing the same redundant thing for hundreds of hours without something new to spice it up. Same can be said for jobs. If you have ever worked a monotonous job, you get the concept from their too.

TF2 started to Decay from this, Overwatch is thriving off new content. Content is what people want, give it to them. A lack of change will kill any multiplayer game. Hell, even single player games get DLC nowadays to keep peoples attention.

(GatoCommodore) #85

new players wont get any excitement of winning when they keep sucking and wont play tutorial.

i tutored a new clan member, hes one of my friend’s son.
to simply put, newbies love instant gratification and thats skins and buyable stuff comes in.

next day he bought some elite cases and unlocked 6 mercs with money just to get
“into the same playing field” he says…

we have trancended the grinding generation straight to buy stuff to play better generation

(Melinder) #86

@TheOmniscient said:
you would make it credits only to purchase

@TheOmniscient said:
The bonuses naturally have to be free

@TheOmniscient said:
This will only increase trinket revenue

  • Make Trinkets a credit-only purchase
  • Make the bonuses cost nothing
  • Result: increased profits from Trinkets

(BloodySin) #87

@n-x said:

  1. The excitement shouldnt need to come from new content. The excitement should come from playing the game itself. From tight games, accomplishing something, succeed with friends and so on. If you need to keep releasing new stuff, then there is something wrong with the game itself. Because you only draw people in due to the “new and shiny” effect.

It’s a PvP arena game. The excitement of playing the game itself has an expiration date. It varies from person to person, but it still exists. You can’t get good player retention if you just stick to a base core game, because sooner or later it just starts getting stale; every match, even if with varied results, starts to feel more of the same. That’s easily proven when the release of new content gets old players who had quit to suddenly get excited again and come back.

That aside, I don’t think trinkets would work for increasing excitement, barring for some collectors. People will stick around or come back because of new maps, new game modes, new characters, new equipment, maybe even new skins (I’d certainly come back after a break for a Bikini Kira summer edition skin), etc., but not for “gun-keychains.”

(Eox) #88

Thread cleaned from unnecessary comments.

Please keep it clean folks. Remain constructive and polite.

(bgyoshi) #89

@Melinder said:

  • Make Trinkets a credit-only purchase
  • Make the bonuses cost nothing
  • Result: increased profits from Trinkets

  • Suddenly remember you can buy credits with cash


(Melinder) #90

@bgyoshi said:

  • Suddenly remember you can buy credits with cash

That won’t go well with Omniscient’s proposal. Remember, this is for players who don’t have a lot of spare time or money to spend.

I was looking for where you buy credits for money, though I just couldn’t find it for the life of me! Would you be so kind as to direct me there?

Whats the Dollar - Credit conversion rate? $1 for 1000?

(Melinder) #91

@TheOmniscient said:
Adding something like this would just make people want trinkets more

I thought i’d chime in here real quick.

Yes, this would make people want trinkets more, because they’re getting +25% credit rates / crate drop rates, that’s a no brainer.

However,

You say I don’t understand business, yet you continue to think that Splash Damage will make more money by taking something that can only be purchased with real money, and making it so you can only purchase it with Credits. That’s like a supermarket making all of their products cost nothing, and claiming that they’ll make more money from this change. Believe me, they won’t. The process of purchasing trinkets is fine the way it is, don’t be giving them out for free. There are better ways to go about making the game easier to progress through.

Something I should have said from the beginning is that people don’t quit because there’s not enough bling, there’s too much grind, or that there is no confetti and flying colours (that’s not to say there aren’t a small group of people that do quit because of this, but I can say confidently that the majority don’t), they quit because right off the bat, they’re thrown into the game without a clue what the hell they’re doing, potentially against players who have been around for years.

It’s been stated before that Dirty Bomb suffers from player retention. It has also been stated that the average level that players cease to play is around the level 10-15 mark.

At around this level, players are yet to understand how much of a grind is yet to come. From their experience so far, they’ve received a large sum of credits somewhere during the level 1-7 region, and for all they know, this could continue throughout leveling.

They also would not care about bling and cosmetics, as they are still coming to terms with the game and it’s mechanics. You don’t purchase a game like Counter-Strike, and instantly start thinking about what skins you should buy for you AK-47, you set aside weeks, if not months focusing on getting better at the game. It doesn’t help that the tutorial doesn’t teach you everything you need to know, but that’s a completely different issue for another time.

@n-x Touches on some of these things, and makes a good point about how we shouldn’t be giving players other goals to aim for that deter them from progressing their mechanical skill within the game. Because at the end of the day, in a competitive first-person shooter, whether you believe in that term or not, the progression of your mechanical skill should remain in the forefront of your mind, not how much swag you can fit in your inventory.

(bgyoshi) #92

@Melinder said:
You don’t purchase a game like Counter-Strike, and instantly start thinking about what skins you should buy for you AK-47, you set aside weeks, if not months focusing on getting better at the game.

I knew I was buying CS:GO for the wrong reason

Damn

I can’t agree that developing mechanical skill is the reason why players play the game. I certainly don’t. My mechanical skill is at the point where anything but default card Vasilli is the only thing that feels remotely challenging anymore and it only took me 20 levels to get to that point.

I pretty much only come back to play when there’s new swag to get or new content being released, and within 2 or 3 days I’ve mastered the content enough to no longer enjoy it.

Point is, collecting swag might sound like a bad idea, but every game that has swag to collect retains more players. There are events based on the swag, ways to purchase the swag outright or just grind for it, and generally everything that people are saying are bad are the exact reason why the most extreme end of the spectrum, that being F2P mobile games, make more money than pretty much any game in existence.

So say what you want, history disagrees with you more than I do.

Competitive game play will never be enough to retain players. With the exception of early release LoL and maybe old school Starcraft, there are no games that are supported solely or even a majority by the competitive environment. All other games are supported by the pub players buying swag, despite the ability to use in game currency instead of cash currency.

Full stop

(TheOmniscient) #93

@bgyoshi said:

@Melinder said:

  • Make Trinkets a credit-only purchase
  • Make the bonuses cost nothing
  • Result: increased profits from Trinkets

  • Suddenly remember you can buy credits with cash


The boosts really can’t be pay only, as Eox put it, it gives a bad near p2w imagine which will kill the game fast. I initially wanted them bought with credits, but I changed the whole model.
So my new model, is a Dirty Bomb logo trinket, and then all trinkets have the ability to cycle through any number of free bonuses. Now, monitization comes from that they should create a litany of trinkets, like lets a say a Fireworks trinket that does something special on kill, or on an Unstoppable killing spree. These effects remain tailored to the item and unique, making players purchase them for their special effects, and since many people are heavy on visuals (me included), it would suck in a variety of people. If someone wants client side only fireworks, make the trinket $5 and trust me, someone will pay for it (like me :D). If its client side, it wont piss of veterans with clutter, especially if there is a toggle option on their own trinkets (cuz old trinkets like snowman should get a little something too, for those of us that grinded those 60 hrs).
So, recap, bonuses free, special effects open a new market, where people buy trinkets for client side special effects, which only increases the amount of money they can make.

(TheOmniscient) #94

@Melinder said:

@TheOmniscient said:
Adding something like this would just make people want trinkets more

I thought i’d chime in here real quick.

Yes, this would make people want trinkets more, because they’re getting +25% credit rates / crate drop rates, that’s a no brainer.

However,

You say I don’t understand business, yet you continue to think that Splash Damage will make more money by taking something that can only be purchased with real money, and making it so you can only purchase it with Credits. That’s like a supermarket making all of their products cost nothing, and claiming that they’ll make more money from this change. Believe me, they won’t. The process of purchasing trinkets is fine the way it is, don’t be giving them out for free. There are better ways to go about making the game easier to progress through.

Something I should have said from the beginning is that people don’t quit because there’s not enough bling, there’s too much grind, or that there is no confetti and flying colours (that’s not to say there aren’t a small group of people that do quit because of this, but I can say confidently that the majority don’t), they quit because right off the bat, they’re thrown into the game without a clue what the hell they’re doing, potentially against players who have been around for years.

It’s been stated before that Dirty Bomb suffers from player retention. It has also been stated that the average level that players cease to play is around the level 10-15 mark.

At around this level, players are yet to understand how much of a grind is yet to come. From their experience so far, they’ve received a large sum of credits somewhere during the level 1-7 region, and for all they know, this could continue throughout leveling.

They also would not care about bling and cosmetics, as they are still coming to terms with the game and it’s mechanics. You don’t purchase a game like Counter-Strike, and instantly start thinking about what skins you should buy for you AK-47, you set aside weeks, if not months focusing on getting better at the game. It doesn’t help that the tutorial doesn’t teach you everything you need to know, but that’s a completely different issue for another time.

@n-x Touches on some of these things, and makes a good point about how we shouldn’t be giving players other goals to aim for that deter them from progressing their mechanical skill within the game. Because at the end of the day, in a competitive first-person shooter, whether you believe in that term or not, the progression of your mechanical skill should remain in the forefront of your mind, not how much swag you can fit in your inventory.

Actually, the first thing some of us do is buy skins. Did it with TF2, CSGO, Dirty Bomb. Literally spending $300 immediately when I started at the tail end of Dickens 2015 (sold a csgo knife for it).

@Melinder @n-x
Literally focusing on skill alone is boring, you need fun, which I understand a few people dont quite get, but if you are playing just to get better, you should just stop and find something else to do, as that is a boring waste of time. You play games for fun, not to feel like you are accomplishing something or are accomplished at something (if you are, that is pretty sad tbh). I love to focus on my aim, and I have incredible aim nowadays as a produc, but that is fun for me, so I do it. Yet collecting skins is more entertaining, so Events take priority over all else when those come around… which results in my hands be screwed up from my carpal tunnel, but who reallllly cares about that.

Making a game easy to progress through is boring, you need a slight boost. Also, a lack of fun visuals is worse. Its why some of us won’t even touch Quake, shit visuals. If it doesn’t look good, or have fun effects, people will play something that has more entertaining visuals special effects. Look at Shadow Warrior and Borderlands, they pride themselves on this stuff, and it draws in the masses because its fun. If effects are bound to pay only trinkets, are toggleable, and client side only. Why do you care? Why spoil what many people want. The boosts, free to all, the special effects, pay only, giving much more room for monitization and increasing revenue.

(Melinder) #95

@TheOmniscient
I’m glad that after 4 forums pages you considered what I said about the trinkets requiring some sort of real-world money purchase. I may have seemed aggressive, though I was just trying to forcefully get the thought into your brain that you can’t remove the profit opportunity from SD.

Remember, throughout this entire thread, you’ve stated that the trinkets could NOT be bought with money.

Final thought before I refuse to come back to this thread:

@TheOmniscient said:
Literally focusing on skill alone is boring, you need fun, which I understand a few people dont quite get, but if you are playing just to get better, you should just stop and find something else to do, as that is a boring waste of time. You play games for fun, not to feel like you are accomplishing something or are accomplished at something (if you are, that is pretty sad tbh).

I’ve never disagreed with anything more in my entire life.

@TheOmniscient said:
You play games for fun, not to feel like you are accomplishing something or are accomplished at something

THAT LITERALLY IS THE FUN

WHAT IS HAPPENNNNNNIIIIIIIINNNNGG AAAAAAGAHAHSJEKRBDIDK

(Meerkats) #96

@bgyoshi said:
Competitive game play will never be enough to retain players. With the exception of early release LoL and maybe old school Starcraft, there are no games that are supported solely or even a majority by the competitive environment. All other games are supported by the pub players buying swag, despite the ability to use in game currency instead of cash currency.

Full stop
The competitive scene impacts game revenue more than you think. Sure, the competitive scene might only account for say 10% of a game’s revenue directly, but a healthy competitive scene is what keeps interest in the game going.

Make a list of what you think are the most profitable games, right now, in terms of consistent revenue via cash shops. LoL? CS:GO? DotA 2? Overwatch? Now look at the top games on twitch.

Now, what do these top games have in common? They all have a thriving competitive scene. Yes, there are exceptions like GTA5, but for the most part, this is not merely coincidence and it is important to examine why.

Being frontpage on twitch is not a small thing, just like being on the first page of Google search results is not a small thing. That’s how you get the most hits, the most traffic, the most new players. A healthy competitive scene maintains longterm player interest and keeps a game in the headlines ( any news is good news, probably; just gotta be on Page One ), which maintains a game’s intrinsic value ( track Battlebourne’s success vs. price ), assures players devs will continue to maintain their game ( Valve would be insane to stop supporting CS:GO; Evolve on the other hand, as dead as can be ) and communicates to investors / shareholders that the game / dev has value and is worth supporting.

Just think. Why would you invest in a game if there is a possibility that game might simply disappear in a few months because the playerbase is so small the devs have no incentive to maintain support? If Dirty Bomb is going to get 86’d in two weeks, why would anybody buy anything during this event? Or why would you invest $400 in a game you precieve to only be worth only $5? But CS:GO? Sure, plonk a few dollars down buying some skins. That game is going nowhere. In fact, there are people who make sizable portions of their income speculating and betting on the CS:GO market, like operators of CS:GO gambling websites.

Am I merely mistaking the impacts of size and notoriety as the effects of competitive? It’s possible. A lot of these parts are very closely connected, but at the same time, there are plenty of other very popular games that aren’t near the front page.

Now, I’m not saying any of these things I’ve listed are entirely predicated upon a strong competitive scene; again, look at GTA5, but ignoring competitive entirely as a revenue driving mechanism? Shortsighted at best if not outright foolhardy.

(TheOmniscient) #97

@Melinder said:
@TheOmniscient
I’m glad that after 4 forums pages you considered what I said about the trinkets requiring some sort of real-world money purchase. I may have seemed aggressive, though I was just trying to forcefully get the thought into your brain that you can’t remove the profit opportunity from SD.

Remember, throughout this entire thread, you’ve stated that the trinkets could NOT be bought with money.

Final thought before I refuse to come back to this thread:

@TheOmniscient said:
Literally focusing on skill alone is boring, you need fun, which I understand a few people dont quite get, but if you are playing just to get better, you should just stop and find something else to do, as that is a boring waste of time. You play games for fun, not to feel like you are accomplishing something or are accomplished at something (if you are, that is pretty sad tbh).

I’ve never disagreed with anything more in my entire life.

@TheOmniscient said:
You play games for fun, not to feel like you are accomplishing something or are accomplished at something

THAT LITERALLY IS THE FUN

WHAT IS HAPPENNNNNNIIIIIIIINNNNGG AAAAAAGAHAHSJEKRBDIDK

depends on the person, doesn’t it?

(bgyoshi) #98

@Meerkats said:

@bgyoshi said:
Competitive game play will never be enough to retain players. With the exception of early release LoL and maybe old school Starcraft, there are no games that are supported solely or even a majority by the competitive environment. All other games are supported by the pub players buying swag, despite the ability to use in game currency instead of cash currency.

Full stop
The competitive scene impacts game revenue more than you think. Sure, the competitive scene might only account for say 10% of a game’s revenue directly, but a healthy competitive scene is what keeps interest in the game going.

Make a list of what you think are the most profitable games, right now, in terms of consistent revenue via cash shops.

Candy Crush
Clash Royale
Angry Birds

I’m willing to bet all of these game destroy your entire list in revenue. I know that Candy Crush at some point was pulling 10mil per day in revenue.

Now, what do these top games have in common?

Free to play cash shop swag games

A healthy competitive scene maintains longterm player interest and keeps a game in the headlines ( any news is good news, probably; just gotta be on Page One ), which maintains a game’s intrinsic value ( track Battlebourne’s success vs. price ), assures players devs will continue to maintain their game ( Valve would be insane to stop supporting CS:GO; Evolve on the other hand, as dead as can be ) and communicates to investors / shareholders that the game / dev has value and is worth supporting.

TF2 continues to rake in new players and tons of money without any direct support from Valve and no comp scene. Starcraft 2 has an officially dead comp scene and still brings in money and new players. Competitive Overwatch is less popular than even AGDQ yet the game thrives far more than that. I promise the competitive scene doesn’t have anything to do with any of those games’ continued popularity.

Just think. Why would you invest in a game if there is a possibility that game might simply disappear in a few months because the playerbase is so small the devs have no incentive to maintain support?

That’s what these events are for; to show the devs are continuing to work on the game. Giving players small, fun items inbetween larger content releases is like having a snack between lunch and dinner.

Am I merely mistaking the impacts of size and notoriety as the effects of competitive?

Yes. See Half Life 2, Undertale, Duke Nukem, Doom, or any other insanely popular game or franchise that had literally no competitive scene.

(boerhae) #99

It’s a nice idea, but some of the specific ideas would be annoying. Granted, they’re toggleable, but I think the idea of the snowman-headshot thing would be better than a fortune cookie.

In general though, I think having special kill effects would be a nice addition to trinkets. It’s not something profound, there are examples in other games.

Nobody is really wrong in this discussion. The better question to ask is how this would be implemented. Would it be one trinket, or would they all have kill effects?

And what about other effects like killstreaks? I know there are badges that the player can see, like Ace, but what about telling the server? It could be as simple as putting a little picture of the trinket in the killfeed with a number next to it. (And if it’s not a trinket that shows in the killfeed, just the number.)

This discussion has become sort of a ‘fun vs skill’ war, and that’s not really necessary. I’d say there should be a balance of both. Most games have multiple ‘scenes’ to them. Take for instance, Super Mario 64. It’s a classic game, a fun challenge, and that’s just what is to some. On the other hand, there’s the speedrunning community who take it very seriously and practice for hours to beat their old times. And that’s a single-player example, but there are multiplayer ones like Smash, etc. Arguing about whether or not the game is supposed to be fun or skill based is a waste of time. That decision is up to the player.

Back on track though. Adding visual effects (like snow head explosion on kill) to trinkets couldn’t hurt anything, could it? As long as they were given an on/off setting, and were client-sided, I can’t see a problem. We just need to find out what’ll work. I just think it’s fairly harmless as long as it’s not out of control.

Sorry if I said something that’s been said already.

(BloodySin) #100

@boerhae said:
Arguing about whether or not the game is supposed to be fun or skill based is a waste of time. That decision is up to the player.
But, just like you say the decision on fun vs. skill is up to the individual player, doesn’t the decision on whether discussing this is a waste of time or not rests on each one involved in the discussion… making it so calling it a waste of time based only on your personal opinion becomes, by your own standard, a waste of time in itself?