To all the K/D haters out there...

(SIR WOLFIE 87) #81

You guys are missing the point. Haven’t you ever wondered why people camp or glitch their way around the maps on certain games? Why was EVERYONE using the UMP on MW2? Because that was the easiest way to get kills. This is a Team based game, so tracking kills has zero use at all since players are encouraged to do objectives/help their team out, which is how you win the game. If people run around doing nothing but kill the opposing team, you will not win the match, so why even encourage it at all.

This will open up so many possibilities like people testing out different guns, different classes etc, which they wouldn’t do if they tracked how many times you died during a match. K/D has no place in any games which require teamwork, keep it for Deathmatch/Free for All etc.

(Weapuh) #82

[QUOTE=Szakalot;292548]I pretty much agree with NuMbzZz but to add a few things:

look at any e-sports top clan and pick any fps you choose. Whether you play CS or CoD or any team vs. team game you still have to be a beast and a killing machine to succeed.

I find that most of the time the K/D whiners are <1 K/D ratio people that need to compensate for their lack of worth by thinking how amazing they are with the revives. If you’re not killing youre worth of enemy players your dragging your team down.

The whole point of teamplay in a competitive environment is to allow you and your teammembers to kill the other team. Any good clan will not allow the objective to be taken until every single member was taken down, trying to defend it.

Reviving; buffing your health or ammo is not a teamgoal of its own, but just another means of making you better at killing.

And teamplay is not really about buffing your health or whatnot (cause thats super easy to do, i mean - really how difficult is it to press a button) but about setting up crossfires, flanking, taking the heat of one player and distracting the opponents, which is much more difficult to do - being considerably more contextual.

This emphasis on the simplistic view of teamplay resulted in lemming tactics in ETQW: a person would run with their pliers out towards the bridge and perceive themselves as an amazing teamplayer because they ‘contribute to the objective’ whereas someone with >3 K/D ratio that clears out the way would be seen by that very same person as a K/D whore.

The only way to complete the objective is to clear it out first. I do not see how it can be done without killing the opponents, and thus the ability to kill is still the most important factor when evaluating someones skill.

Teamplay is important - true. Hell, its crucial, especially when players get really, really good.
But if you cant kill for s****, youre dragging your team down. Bummer.

EDIT:
oh and its not K/D ratio on its own of course, because you could snipe 1 person every 2 minutes from afar, never die and still be dragging your team down. Kills Per Minute is more reliable statistic, when evaluting someones general usefulness to the team.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much the ideology of being a pubstar, if you actually look at e-sports you don’t see people beating their chests and saying “mah KDR is best.” no (unless they’re douches). If they are any good at all they’ll accomplish their kills as a team with crossfires and the sorts.
It’s a very good pub indicator of “goodness” but means very little.

If I were given the option of having the best engi with %40 acc and 1 KDR I’d take him over anyone with 4 KDR who does nothing but kill.

(tokamak) #83

[QUOTE=NuMbzZz;292527]not necessarily
like i said if u cant defend ur self in a gun fight then ur only goin to slow us down, when making pushes for the obj[/QUOTE]

Defending yourself is not always the most important thing. XP/min is far more useful than any other indicator.

(Szakalot) #84

@Sir Wolfie
I see your point, but we come from different backgrounds.

I can understand how the fear for diluted gameplay on pubs is justified; people worrying that there are too many xp/reward whores that will not contribute to the team.

But I believe its not a problem with the game, but with people. I cannot recall a single MP game where you wouldnt see a bunch of jerks doing whatever it is that is annoying in that game, and basically spoiling the experience for everyone else.

There are two easy solutions to that problem, which is why I do not really see at as a problem at all:

  • play on a good server
  • join a clan and play more serious games.

‘game experience can change during online play’ is basically what this is all about.

(Szakalot) #85

[QUOTE=Weapuh;292569]Pretty much the ideology of being a pubstar, if you actually look at e-sports you don’t see people beating their chests and saying “mah KDR is best.” no (unless they’re douches). If they are any good at all they’ll accomplish their kills as a team with crossfires and the sorts.
It’s a very good pub indicator of “goodness” but means very little.

If I were given the option of having the best engi with %40 acc and 1 KDR I’d take him over anyone with 4 KDR who does nothing but kill.[/QUOTE]

Have you actually read what i wrote in my post?

In any case: crossfire…

What does it even mean ‘best engi’? building an mg nest over and over for xp?

If you look at esports you see a bunch of people that are really, really good at killing, and get ridiculously high K/D ratio wherever they go.

(mmonney31) #86

Defending yourself is not always the most important thing. XP/min is far more useful than any other indicator

so im better off rushing past everyone to try for the objective to get xp than killing guys to clear the way for my team?

(Weapuh) #87

Guess i have to explain some terms, Crossfire: is when you position yourself and another player on your team so that you can both fire upon an enemy. It doesn’t matter who gets the kill, it may result in one player getting 0 kills but doing %80 of the damage, does that make him a bad player? Nope

good engi has great gamesense, knowing when it’s safe to plant, knowing where the enemy is, because a good team on defense won’t be in a position to allow themselves to all be killed out.

And i do look at esports, and even the best teams have people who are lower KDR than others, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be on the team any less than a 5 KDR player, but the 5 KDR player will have more fanboys because KDR is a lot easier to see than smart players.

(tokamak) #88

Yes exactly! Because the objective is the only thing that rewards a player xp it obviously is the only thing that is worth doing.

(NuMbzZz) #89

[QUOTE=Szakalot;292577]Have you actually read what i wrote in my post?

In any case: crossfire…

What does it even mean ‘best engi’? building an mg nest over and over for xp?

If you look at esports you see a bunch of people that are really, really good at killing, and get ridiculously high K/D ratio wherever they go.[/QUOTE]

well in e-sports against other good teams they kds arent that high at the end of matches because its top tier teams playing but their kds outside of competition is high

i agree with u that all e-sports players on top teams are extremely gifted killers and they dont have weak links on their team to drag them down, everyone can kill and setup and know their positions on the map and then it comes down to more teamwork and who has the better strats

u wont see an e-sports team picking up a player with a 0.5 kdr that aint gonna happen which is the point some of us tryin to make but these guys dont get it

anyone can buff a players health, anyone can build an mg nest, anyone can buff weapon damage those things require 1 button press and are more common sense things. Not everyone knows how to setup properly as a team to watch flanking routes and setup crossfires as u say, that is true teamwork

(BRAVOMIKE87) #90

LOL…ya OKAY tokamak, you go ahead pass enemies up, get to that objective and see where it gets you.

fail.

(NuMbzZz) #91

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so good sir how do u intend to reach the objective without killing?
how are gonna hold the objective?
are u goin to negotiate with the enemy and talk them into giving up?

(Szakalot) #92

Yes, of course in the CW itself the K/D ratios are not indicative of much anymore (a particular strat might involve someone lemming the obj, etc.); naturally i was reffering to what those players K/D would be compared to the general public.

The point as defenders is not to prevent yourself from dying, while the offense is planting; its to make sure they will have to go through a meatgrinder, before they get there. And that usually means that the only way for the offense to plant (do obj/ whatever) is to clear the site out

There is nothing I can disagree wtih you about a good engy, though I believe those are characteristics any player should have, regardless of their class.

Still, you cannot expect to make a successful plant if there are enemies around. Somehow you have to kill them all, and 1 K/D ratio will necessarily depend on someone else to kill those people. Which essentialy means your dragging your team down.

If Brink is anything like RTCW/W:ET/ETQW (and so far everything indicates to the similarity of gameplay) the attackers usually will have to clear off the obj, and defend the imminent counterattack. That means at least 2 waves of defenders. So if everyone on your team goes for 1:1 K/D, youre not gonna get far.

Fortunately, since the teams objectives are assymetric, you only have to manage doing it once, to get the obj.

EDIT:
this discussion is nothing new, but one way i used to argue this issue is:

it only takes one player playing the objective, if the rest of the team makes sure that the enemies cant move an inch without dying, what you get is a complete steamroll of the map.

(Weapuh) #93

[QUOTE=NuMbzZz;292597]

u wont see an e-sports team picking up a player with a 0.5 kdr that aint gonna happen which is the point some of us tryin to make but these guys dont get it[/QUOTE]

We get it, it’s just a silly point to make because no real team is going to look at your ability to chew up noobs on a pub compared to how many times you die. Then use that information to gauge whether you are good or not. Maybe if you’re making a fun clan to do pubstomps but in e-sports they will play with them and see first hand whether they are good or not, not use a meaningless number.

It is safe bet to say that 0.5 KDR player wont make it to any team but you’re insinuating the situation where “ooooh we’re so terribly sorry your KDR is 2.321 and we require 2.400 as a mimimum to be considered, so sorry.” no, the number means nothing except to show other pubbies how cool you are.

(Herandar) #94

Reading comprehension fail.

(Szakalot) #95

@Weapuh
of course they do.
If youre a good shooter in CW, you probably have at least 2 K/D.

I cannot recall any good clan with players K/D oscillating around 1; unless they played with their feet.

Because Comp play is so much more hardcore than pubbing, if you cant own the pub you won’t get far with your ‘clan career’.

(Herandar) #96

Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge my feet. My feet are awesome, BTW.

(Szakalot) #97

Edited, just for you.

(Weapuh) #98

You but you’re putting emphasis on something completely stupid, logic fail. If all Comp players have good KDR then all good KDR players will be great in comp… nooooooooo, just noooooo

(NuMbzZz) #99

[QUOTE=Weapuh;292612]We get it, it’s just a silly point to make because no real team is going to look at your ability to chew up noobs on a pub compared to how many times you die. Then use that information to gauge whether you are good or not. Maybe if you’re making a fun clan to do pubstomps but in e-sports they will play with them and see first hand whether they are good or not, not use a meaningless number.

It is safe bet to say that 0.5 KDR player wont make it to any team but you’re insinuating the situation where “ooooh we’re so terribly sorry your KDR is 2.321 and we require 2.400 as a mimimum to be considered, so sorry.” no, the number means nothing except to show other pubbies how cool you are.[/QUOTE]

do ppl seriously not read my posts…i said a minimum that MY CLAN looks for in a tryout is a 1:1 ratio i never said anything about ppl having a specific number like 2.3 and our requirement is 2.4 cuz tbh thats really dumb if any team rejects a guy because his kd is slightly off which is why i dont have a SET requirement but instead a general one of 1:1 and up

EDIT: for my socom division i dont judge ppl based on pubs i actually let them play in a clan match and see how their perform again the whole argument i am making here is that we use it as an indicator for tryouts

obviously ill be wasting my time with 0.5 guy in a clan match.
i see how they perform in a tryout in a pub and if i see they have good teamwork and comms then we move onto the real test of seeing how they perform in a clan match/scrim

(Herandar) #100

My feet thank you:

trhakmj toliju

(Yeah, they aren’t ideal for typing on normal keyboards… Maybe I should’ve put the laptop on the floor instead of putting my foot on the desk.)