There needs to be a way to change things mid-match.

(tokamak) #221

They can sprint to hard to reach places and put up turrets there. Sounds great.

(DouglasDanger) #222

I thnk there are limits. There can only be so many of each class per team.

(tokamak) #223

Now THAT would totally suck. I thought it was just xp incentives.

(Senethro) #224

Not much I can do against a subjective standard of fun, nice exercise in goalpost shifting and constantly grabbing for the last word.

(tokamak) #225

Look I understand that right now it’s impossible to come up with an example of clearly broke gameplay, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, but it also means things aren’t inherently broken from the outset.

(Mr.Fozzie) #226

I applaud their use of meaningful choice, as far as abilities and body type is concerned.

I sincerely doubt they’ll have obnoxiously overpowered abilities that trump individual player skill. I’d be willing to wager that a superior player with 0 skills would still utterly dominate a lesser, fuller-specialized player. In fact i regularly play games such as shudder Black Ops, and Bad Company 2 with utterly useless weapons and terrible perks, while everyone else is running around with the best loadouts. I have yet to come across a time where the game was so utterly hopeless as many of the people on this board seem to assume will happen in brink.

The meaningful choice that appears to be offered to us adds a new layer of (lets call it strategy for now) which requires actual thought. Rather than having a ‘best’ set of abilities across all situations, as is the case in many other games with ‘perks’, you now have to consider that fully specializing in one field may in fact vastly limit you in certain situations. That’s just something you’ll have to consider when building your character.

So those of you who wish to hold the advantage at all times, across all situations; perhaps it’s time to rethink that mindset. I welcome the chance to play on an ‘inferior’ team, and still dominate. If you’re not up to the challenge, perhaps knitting is a better choice.

(Weeohhweeohh) #227

[QUOTE=Mr.Fozzie;274351]I applaud their use of meaningful choice, as far as abilities and body type is concerned.

I sincerely doubt they’ll have obnoxiously overpowered abilities that trump individual player skill. I’d be willing to wager that a superior player with 0 skills would still utterly dominate a lesser, fuller-specialized player. In fact i regularly play games such as shudder Black Ops, and Bad Company 2 with utterly useless weapons and terrible perks, while everyone else is running around with the best loadouts. I have yet to come across a time where the game was so utterly hopeless as many of the people on this board seem to assume will happen in brink.

The meaningful choice that appears to be offered to us adds a new layer of (lets call it strategy for now) which requires actual thought. Rather than having a ‘best’ set of abilities across all situations, as is the case in many other games with ‘perks’, you now have to consider that fully specializing in one field may in fact vastly limit you in certain situations. That’s just something you’ll have to consider when building your character.

So those of you who wish to hold the advantage at all times, across all situations; perhaps it’s time to rethink that mindset. I welcome the chance to play on an ‘inferior’ team, and still dominate. If you’re not up to the challenge, perhaps knitting is a better choice.[/QUOTE]

Watch out buddy…you might just get on to Bridger bad list…and it’s your first post!

Edit: whoops! It was bridger who had the bad list going! My bad.

(H0RSE) #228

But when putting that together with a random pub environment, one team might randomly have characters that work well together (2 of each class, good distribution of heavies/mediums/lights, etc.) and the other team might have a randomly bad composition. In this instance there is a random element outside of player control that has given one side an advantage. This may not be a huge advantage, but it’s still not good game design if you want games to be fun (I think we can all agree that even playing field is better than a tilted one?).

There’s not enough cheese in the world for all the whine you have…

It’s a pub server - there’s almost always a team that is better than another. I really don’t see how this has gone on as long as it has. This is the Brink works - regardless if your logic and PhD in game design say that it is a “bad design,” - even if you’re page long thesis is 100% correct, and Brink truly is flawed here, and unbalanced there, it still amounts to nothing because all those aspects you are complaining about are still going to be in the game.

So either don’t play it, play it and deal with it, or wait for it to be modded.

(Mr.Fozzie) #229

What can i say, i’m enamoured by the fact that i’ll have to intelligently consider which character/bodytype/ability set to take into a specific situation.

-Random pub: Good chance there will be some pretty poor players in there. Better take my ‘jack of all trades’ character in case i have to fill any/all roles in a pinch.
-Pub with 1 or 2 friends: Choose the loadout that best meshes with my teammates. Still keep a good spread of abilities if i need to pick up the slack.
-Pub with 3+ Friends: Play the supposedly “OMG SUPER OVERPOWERED” class, specializing in one specific role.

(Mr.Fozzie) #230

[QUOTE=H0RSE;274359]There’s not enough cheese in the world for all the whine you have…

It’s a pub server - there’s almost always a team that is better than another. I really don’t see how this has gone on as long as it has. This is the Brink works - regardless if your logic and PhD in game design say that it is a “bad design,” - even if you’re page long thesis is 100% correct, and Brink truly is flawed here, and unbalanced there, it still amounts to nothing because all those aspects you are complaining about are still going to be in the game.

So either don’t play it, play it and deal with it, or wait for it to be modded.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Not to mention the fact that, given splash damage’s past, isn’t it logical to think they would work diligently to patch these phantom imbalances out post-haste?

Heaven forbid you have to play at a disadvantage at any point in time. Things should be 100% even at all times, across all situations, lest the game be deemed broken, and all the fish in the world die (being a whimsical bear, this would be troubling to me).

(Bridger) #231

Meaningful choice simply means that your choice does affect the game. When I choose to spec engineer/Medic, I’ve made a support character. This character will have bonuses when playing that supporting role. That is a meaningful choice.

It is STILL a meaningful choice, even if I change my character mid-match. Now I’ve got a different character who’s choices are affecting the game I’m playing. I’m never in a situation where my choices didn’t matter. That choice to switch to a different character was, itself, a meaningful choice.

(Weeohhweeohh) #232

…lets see how long it takes people in this thread to complain about having to make more then 1 character.

Question you should ask yourself: What FPSs have you played before? How many hours have you played each individual FPS?

In my opinion, regular/run of the mill game (any genre) has a life expectancy of about 20 or so hours. If you happen to like the game, you are gonna play it longer. You will invest more time and effort into it. I have no idea how long it will take to get to lvl 20, but I’m sure its not going to take more then 10 hours (if even that).

(Bridger) #233

Hope so!

Heaven forbid you have to play at a disadvantage at any point in time. Things should be 100% even at all times, across all situations, lest the game be deemed broken, and all the fish in the world die (being a whimsical bear, this would be troubling to me).

An even playing field (two sides of equal skill have an equal chance to win) should be the goal of all MP games. That is not the same as “never being at a disadvantage.” Being at a disadvantage due to your own choices/skills is fine. Being at a disadvantage because of an unregulated random factor is NOT fine.

(DarkangelUK) #234

I’m not convinced abilities are these all powerful upgrades that they appear to be getting tagged with, I am convinced however that the A-symmetry of the abilities between the 2 teams will cancel out any slight perceived upper hand overall.

(Ragoo) #235

[QUOTE=Mr.Fozzie;274351]
So those of you who wish to hold the advantage at all times, across all situations; perhaps it’s time to rethink that mindset. I welcome the chance to play on an ‘inferior’ team, and still dominate. If you’re not up to the challenge, perhaps knitting is a better choice.[/QUOTE]

I only wish to have an advantage when I earned it. If I do something stupid I want to be at a disadvantage. That’s the principal of most standard gamebalance which I enjoy in my multiplayer games.

And normally I don’t enjoy being at a disadvantage cause in a balanced game that means I did something wrong. Now while coming back from a disadvantage is really cool, I don’t want to do something wrong in the first place.

And this wrong thing I do in BRINK might just be purely dependent on luck. When I choose a very specific combination of abilities and bodytype , join a server and realize I have a character that’s not particularly effective in this situation, that’s just bad luck.

I don’t see why I should be knitting instead, when I want a game to be balanced and not luck dependent.

(Bridger) #236

[QUOTE=Weeohhweeohh;274367]…lets see how long it takes people in this thread to complain about having to make more then 1 character.

Question you should ask yourself: What FPSs have you played before? How many hours have you played each individual FPS?

In my opinion, regular/run of the mill game (any genre) has a life expectancy of about 20 or so hours. If you happen to like the game, you are gonna play it longer. You will invest more time and effort into it. I have no idea how long it will take to get to lvl 20, but I’m sure its not going to take more then 10 hours (if even that).[/QUOTE]

10 hours to level 20 is a good number IMHO. They gave us 10 character slots, they have to imagine that people would use a good chunk of them. 10 hours per slot using 5-8 slots is 50-80 hours. That’s probably a few months of gameplay for most people. It’s not like the game stops being fun once you get to level 20.

Although I’m sure I would prefer to play on a level 20 character more often than not, so I’d probably be more comfortable with 5-8 hours to level 20.

(Mr.Fozzie) #237

I don’t know about you, but i really miss having to come up with truly unique strats. Let’s keep in mind that this is a team game. If you are heavily specialized in one area, the chances of your other 7 teammates making the conscious choice to a) become heavily specialized b) be specialized in the exact same class, and selecting the exact same abilities as you, is rather astronomical if you think about it.

I feel like having the ability to simply switch on the fly takes away from part of the pre-match (presuming we’re discussing semi-competitive play at this point, because pubs will always be random) planning that makes this system so interesting and unique.

(Bridger) #238

Don’t think anybody said they are. Even if they are only minor boosts, that doesn’t change the discussion.

(Mr.Fozzie) #239

[QUOTE=Ragoo;274377]I only wish to have an advantage when I earned it. If I do something stupid I want to be at a disadvantage. That’s the principal of most standard gamebalance which I enjoy in my multiplayer games.

And normally I don’t enjoy being at a disadvantage cause in a balanced game that means I did something wrong. Now while coming back from a disadvantage is really cool, I don’t want to do something wrong in the first place.

And this wrong thing I do in BRINK might just be purely dependent on luck. When I choose a very specific combination of abilities and bodytype , join a server and realize I have a character that’s not particularly effective in this situation, that’s just bad luck.

I don’t see why I should be knitting instead, when I want a game to be balanced and not luck dependent.[/QUOTE]

The same can be said for other games: you will always be limited in one fashion or another, unless they make every weapon/ability/body type a clone of the rest, simply with aesthetic differences. That’s not interesting. Being on a level playing field across all situations is boring.

If i’m a tanker in battlefield, and i join a game where all the tanks are taken, i’m at a disadvantage unless someone wants to get out.

If i have the stopping power perk in cod4, and the entire other team has juggernaught, i’m at a disadvantage, because my gun will take more bullets to kill them than someone who had not taken that perk.

If i’m playing CS, and i choose to save my money, but the entire other team spends theirs on superior weapons, i’m at a disadvantage because of a choice i made. Look how successful that game is.

Besides, nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to stay in server A. If it’s truly so devastating to you to be at a disadvantage, switching servers, or reshuffling teams will certainly be available to you, i’m sure.

I’m not trying to say you guys are wrong, just to have you rethink your position. I was initially put off by it (very much so in fact), but the more i thought about it, the more i realized that this is exactly what a game of this type needs.

(JeP) #240

[QUOTE=H0RSE;274359]There’s not enough cheese in the world for all the whine you have…

It’s a pub server - there’s almost always a team that is better than another. I really don’t see how this has gone on as long as it has. This is the Brink works - regardless if your logic and PhD in game design say that it is a “bad design,” - even if you’re page long thesis is 100% correct, and Brink truly is flawed here, and unbalanced there, it still amounts to nothing because all those aspects you are complaining about are still going to be in the game.

So either don’t play it, play it and deal with it, or wait for it to be modded.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Can’t we agree to disagree on the load out being locked a good or bad thing and move on to another meaningless “debat” please, people ?