The era of good FPS titles has long since passed and is not returning

(Hyrage) #121

PLEASE, stop. You guys are making such fools of yourself with you freaking debates on how console gaming supposedly slows down the evolution of video games.

The only reason why games are dumbed down is because big companies want casual gamers to buy their stupid games. The problem is, casual gamers are a freaking myth, so they dumb down their games without any good motives.

[QUOTE=howie;321251]Because they’re not used to using a m&k?

There’s a reason why all popular online console fps are slow paced - you can’t accurately twitch aim or track a fast moving target with a pad. It can’t be done. That’s not a problem in itself - the problem is that developers are catering for the cash cow console market and then porting these slow shooters, with their clunky and massive huds and crosshairs, to the PC. So we end up with many 1000s of devoted PC shooter fans who for the last 5-15 years have been playing fps that are all about reactions, speed and twitch aim, and suddenly they’re stuck playing Modern Warfare and its clones because there’s nothing else being released. It’s like forcing a chess fan to play checkers.[/QUOTE]
By the way, it’s called a thumbstick, not a pad and you are so freaking wrong dude.

Have you ever played with the 360 game controller for more than 1 minute on any decent FPS game? Because I know a lot of people that can twitch aim (swipe shot) and can follow a target better than so really good Quake III players can do with the lightning gun + mouse + keyboard. And I’m a particularly good at quickscoping and I can tell… because I’m as fast on console as I am on PC.

You need to realize that the a mouse has strength and weaknesses too… The primary reason, why a lot of people think that a 360 feels wrong to play FPS games is that most develoeprs don’t even spend enough time at making the aiming system (the thumbsticks) feel natural and precise. It’s like playing with a $1000 laser mouse without any proper software to take advantage of it = pointless.

Play Modern Warfare or Halo with a 360 controller and play Brink or any other shooter after. See the difference in quality when it comes to the aiming system (behavior of the thumbsticks).

(jazevec) #122

The funny thing is, even if that was true (Controllers being good at FPS games. All console FPS are slow because of a conspiracy) there’s no way to prove it. Because consoles are so bad at recording gameplay videos.

(Hyrage) #123

Why? Can’t you just play and experience it yourself??? It’s like mediation. Peopel want to know, but the only way to truly understand is by experiencing it directly…

(DeeTwo) #124

[QUOTE=Hyrage;325559]
Because I know a lot of people that can twitch aim (swipe shot) and can follow a target better than so really good Quake III players can do with the lightning gun + mouse + keyboard. And I’m a particularly good at quickscoping and I can tell… because I’m as fast on console as I am on PC.[/QUOTE]

I’m perfectly down with joining the two groups of players*. It’ll be great fun for the first hour. Just on a side point regarding console tracking, don’t most(?) console FPS have aiming assistance to aid said tracking?

*Theres an article about when MS allegedly tried this, it ended badly. Which is sad in a way as it probably would have helped the situation in the long term.

(howie) #125

Sure I have. I’m not a PC fanboy, owning all the consoles and being a fan of console fps since before GE. I’ve sunk a silly no. hours into console fps. A degree failing, red eyes buring from the morning sun no. of hours. I could argue the benefits of using a pad over a m&k (and have done a few times on other forums), but know full well the weakness of using an analogue stick. You don’t know people who can twitch aim or track as well as good Quake players. There are very skilled stick users out there, but they rely on aim assist and play slow fps. CoD:MW and Halo are slow fps. Even with the sensitivity turned up to the highest setting you wouldn’t be able to compete in a twitch shooter using a pad, and that’s assuming you can be pixel accurate at that setting.

Here’s one of the first vids that popped up after searching forToxic and Quake on youtube:

The best pad user in existence wouldn’t get a frag.

For single player shooters or slow fps i’m more than happy to use a pad. For online fps I tend to like more twitch and want a mouse.

//edit

anyone remember when DC users were allowed to face off against PC plays in Q3? Ouch :wink:

(Hyrage) #126

[QUOTE=DeeTwo;325683]I’m perfectly down with joining the two groups of players*. It’ll be great fun for the first hour. Just on a side point regarding console tracking, don’t most(?) console FPS have aiming assistance to aid said tracking?

*Theres an article about when MS allegedly tried this, it ended badly. Which is sad in a way as it probably would have helped the situation in the long term.[/QUOTE]
If you do your homework, a lot of recent games allow the players to remove auto-aim or most sort of aim assistance. As I said, I twitch aim without any sort of aim assist and so do many others.

From what I remember, Microsoft did perform cross-platform tests with Shadowrun back in the days and the results were as they expected. (and Pro PC players were among the testers)

The 360 controller for a game as complex as Shadowrun gave the edge to console players, because it was easier for them to react and perform complex actions while it was easier for PC players to aim… it wasn’t enough to win. It’s also important to note that shooting in Shadowrun, didn’t require the players to be fully accurate (randomness).

(Hyrage) #127

[QUOTE=howie;325709]

//edit

anyone remember when DC users were allowed to face off against PC plays in Q3? Ouch ;)[/QUOTE]
I won’t stop repeating it:
How can you think you have a fair comparison when a lot of games didn’t even offer decent aiming controls with a game controller? On PC, whatever the game is it’s pretty much the same behavior, but on console… it’s completely different from one game to another.

Take Q3, put on console, add the most decent aiming controls for 360 controller (aiming system I mean) without auto-aim, let the crowd practice for at least 2 years and then… mix PC players with 360 players and get a proper verdict.

But I can tell, you would be amazed and you should forget the progressive movements that the left thumbstick delivers… it really makes a difference when it comes to aiming precision.

(howie) #128

We both know that will never happen. Regardless, I think you know a pad user could never twitch and move with the speed and precision of someone using a m&k. Come on, I like using a pad. I like the triggers, the rumble. I prefer moving around with a stick. I wouldn’t want to attempt trick jumping, but prefer it for strolling around. But when I watch high level console matches when I should be working the action really isn’t impressive compared to high end PC footage - and this is in slow games with oddles of aim assist.

(hozz) #129

Controls. It’s the controls. They are just no fun.

When games must be playable with a gamepad, games cannot require the player to move fast, turn quickly, look up and down more than marginally, or actually aim properly, and all of this combined. “Easy to learn and hard to master” is also gone, so not even the stupidest impatient console moron can get frustrated.

How is a shooter supposed to be fun without everything that makes a shooter fun?

Random examples to prove my point:
The clunky snail movement fashion extactly started when the first shooters were developed for XBox 1 too. E.g. Unreal 2.
Play Doom3 on XBox and see what happens when a demon spawns behind you. Then compare to PC.
Or the Crysis 2 controls which single handedly ruin its multiplayer.
Or Brink, I guess (have not played that yet):rolleyes:

TLDR: PHUCK GAMEPADS:(

(dazman76) #130

This concept makes no sense I’m afraid - what exactly is an “aiming system without auto-aim”? There’s no such thing as an “aiming system” to begin with - the mouse or analogue stick is controlling the camera orientation in an FPS, any other effects are secondary (player model turning etc.). It does this at a particular sensitivity, which may or may not have acceleration applied when the input is moved quickly.

If anything else happens on top of this, it’s auto-aim regardless of how you dress it.

  1. “snap” the reticule (actually the centre of the camera view) on to close targets as the player moves, so when they shoot they’re already on target. Manual movement beyond a given threshold amount breaks the snap
  2. gradually move the reticule/centre each frame to a target within a threshold distance, stopping if that target moves out of the threshold distance (from centre of reticule)
  3. Wait until they fire and allow shots to land on targets within a threshold distance from the reticule centre, without manipulating camera orientation/reticule location

These are all auto-aim :slight_smile: Is there any other manipulation that can be done that might constitute an “aiming system”?

(Hyrage) #131

[QUOTE=dazman76;325872]This concept makes no sense I’m afraid - what exactly is an “aiming system without auto-aim”? There’s no such thing as an “aiming system” to begin with - the mouse or analogue stick is controlling the camera orientation in an FPS, any other effects are secondary (player model turning etc.). It does this at a particular sensitivity, which may or may not have acceleration applied when the input is moved quickly.

If anything else happens on top of this, it’s auto-aim regardless of how you dress it.

  1. “snap” the reticule (actually the centre of the camera view) on to close targets as the player moves, so when they shoot they’re already on target. Manual movement beyond a given threshold amount breaks the snap
  2. gradually move the reticule/centre each frame to a target within a threshold distance, stopping if that target moves out of the threshold distance (from centre of reticule)
  3. Wait until they fire and allow shots to land on targets within a threshold distance from the reticule centre, without manipulating camera orientation/reticule location

These are all auto-aim :slight_smile: Is there any other manipulation that can be done that might constitute an “aiming system”?[/QUOTE]
Aiming system
The software, line codes or system that runs the behavior of the right thumbstick, the sensitivity speed, acceleration curve, dead zones and axis, how your crosshair behave on the screen, etc.

Without auto-aim
No auto-aim

Is that better explained? :smiley:

(jegis) #132

Halo handholds console players in more ways than just aim assistance. When the crosshair turns red bullets home to their target and the sensitivity slows down. It doesn’t matter how good the controls are done, you’ll always be relying stick throttle*game sensitivity multiplier rather than your hand speed. There will always be an artificial cap on how fast you can turn whereas with a mouse it’s down to how fast your hand is.

When you turn off all the handholding you get quake 3 on XBL arcade, an absolute joke where no one can hit the side of a barn door.

(Hyrage) #133

[QUOTE=jegis;326050]Halo handholds console players in more ways than just aim assistance. When the crosshair turns red bullets home to their target and the sensitivity slows down. It doesn’t matter how good the controls are done, you’ll always be relying stick throttle*game sensitivity multiplier rather than your hand speed. There will always be an artificial cap on how fast you can turn whereas with a mouse it’s down to how fast your hand is.

When you turn off all the handholding you get quake 3 on XBL arcade, an absolute joke where no one can hit the side of a barn door.[/QUOTE]
Dude it the same with a mouse when your sensitivity is too low…

If you set your sensitivty high enough, it easily counters what you are talking about. 5-7 on Halo 2, maybe the same on 3rd and Reach and 4-10 on CoD.

Not all game works like Halo. have you played any other game? R6 Vegas 2? BFBC2?

And maybe you didn’t notice, but Quake Live Arcade features the crappiest aiming system ever seen on console, since there isn’t a progressive sensitivity when you move the thumbstick = absurd. Maybe you didn’t notice, but Pi Studios closed their doors after the release of the game for good reasons.

(jegis) #134

I’ve played bad company. It’s the same deal. You’ll never get that pixel perfect instant 180. You’ll never get as smooth and fluid movement at the speed you want and you’ll never be able to snap through targets as fast as you want. It’s not a case where programming the input can smooth out the issues. It doesn’t matter if you pick 10 on halo 2.

(fearlessfox) #135

Modern FPS that are great:
BC2
Halo Series
Brink
TF2
BLOPS Zombie DLC
GoW 1

There are more, but these are my favourites.

(Hyrage) #136

Wrong. I can have a pixel perfect accuracy on Halo, R6 Vegas (especially) and BF:BC2 while quickscoping.

PC player ranked 1 for his kills VS my stats on the 360 with game controller:
http://bfbc2.statsverse.com/stats/pc/fiLthy%20mOga/comp/360/HBW%20Hyrage%20Qc/

Have fun by looking at the ratio of headshot VS number of kills per weapons and pay attention to the proportions. oh and by the way K/D means nothing in BF:BC2… since you have infinite lives in Defense and I rush very often in the killzones to push :).

You can’t just look at accuracy % because headshots kill faster than in the body, so if a player has a bit lower accuracy but more headshots = win.

(Ashog) #137

[quote=Ark_peasant;321470]Back in 1999-2005, we had some great games, right ?

Worldwide video game market (in dollars)(approximately, of course) :

1999 : 20 billions

2005 : 29 billions

…

2010 : between 50 and 60 billions :D[/quote]

It’s just that the kids get moar pocket money to spend nowadays. Hence the rise in sales which has unfortunately nothing to do with increasing game quality since 90s (rather opposite). The white & nerdy society got richer, can buy moar games and better pc’s/consoles, plus don’t forget inflation.

(howie) #138

[QUOTE=Hyrage;326119]PC player ranked 1 for his kills VS my stats on the 360 with game controller:
http://bfbc2.statsverse.com/stats/pc/fiLthy%20mOga/comp/360/HBW%20Hyrage%20Qc/[/QUOTE]

Interesting stats.

Here’s yours and mine:

http://bfbc2.statsverse.com/stats/360/HBW%20Hyrage%20Qc/comp/pc/HBuz/#infantry

I don’t play BC2 much these days - pretty much only rambo sniper in vietnam as close range twitch sniping is the only thing I find exciting and challenging in the game, it being slow, clunky and consoley :wink: Bear in mind these stats are with me being pretty rusty and old - only getting to play once or twice a week tops these days. //excuses :slight_smile:

(SphereCow) #139

[QUOTE=Hyrage;325711]If you do your homework, a lot of recent games allow the players to remove auto-aim or most sort of aim assistance. As I said, I twitch aim without any sort of aim assist and so do many others.

From what I remember, Microsoft did perform cross-platform tests with Shadowrun back in the days and the results were as they expected. (and Pro PC players were among the testers)

The 360 controller for a game as complex as Shadowrun gave the edge to console players, because it was easier for them to react and perform complex actions while it was easier for PC players to aim… it wasn’t enough to win. It’s also important to note that shooting in Shadowrun, didn’t require the players to be fully accurate (randomness).[/QUOTE]

It’s not easier to perform complex actions on controlers.

Try playing Wolf:ET Noquarter with me some time, and I’ll show you.

(morguen87) #140

I absolutely loved Starsiege TRIBES, I played for years and years and this is the closest thing I’ve played since. No jet pack, but the smart ability combined with tighter maps makes getting around just as easy. It almost feels like it could have been a TRIBES mod.
If anything, this title is bringing me back to the days of good FPS’s. I haven’t played one this good in a long, long time…probably the best FPS since Quake 3.

My only complaints are slight weapon imbalances, which I know they are working on, and dumb as bricks bots that are absolutely obsessed with command posts instead of objectives. I haven’t heard if they’re working on doing anything with the 360 bot AI. In Quake 3 you could give orders to each individual bot on your team, having that ability would make playing with bots in Brink much more bearable.