The decision to nerf movement and jumping while in combat in the last patch is really dissapointing.

(Jostabeere) #81

[quote=“tominatorx;145579”][quote=“Anaconda;145525”]
PS, your bias against fast paced combat is clear by your signature’s statement of "In the New Year…I hate Proxy even more. ". Of course you would love a patch that obliterates the many strengths of your least favorite class.
[/quote]

The reason why he wrote that in his signature (if I remember correctly), is because of the mine spam that a lot of proxy players use. I don’t think it had anything to do with bunnyhopping otherwise there would be also Auras name in there. At least that’s what I think. :)[/quote]

Yup. It’s 99% the retarded mine spam/mine tossing into enemies face and Kamikazeing for some cheap kills an 1% the monkeying around thing.
But hey, he ain’t biased at all, only I’m biased.

(Amerika) #82

@Anaconda You keep implying that people want more “realism” or to “slow the game down” to appeal to casual players. Yet here I am, somebody who has played Q3 at the highest levels for over a decade among many other slower and faster games compared to Dirty Bomb and I am fine with this change in general (just not for bolt-action rifles).

Strafing and firing was not affected. Jumping and firing was not affected if you were using it in CQC in a skillfull manner. The ONLY way you are affected is if you were 15-20 yards away, in a fire fight, and started hopping and shooting. You can’t sit here and tell me that in a medium range fight you were skillfully jumping off of walls and winning fights. Any good player would laugh and kill you but be annoyed because it took more time since it’s harder to headshot and a less skilled player would be annoyed because it would make you harder to track.

Hopping and shooting at mid range was not “fast paced combat”. It’s a crutch that players use to stay alive longer than they should in a lot of scenarios while they roll the dice on their own shots and hopefully win out or at least stay alive. Your dice rolls are just less likely to work out for you in the scenario in which you were obviously jumping.

Also, I played OW day 1 in beta and it’s incredibly slow paced in a lot of ways and designed with a controller in mind in every aspect of it’s gameplay which causes it to be a game that looks good when viewed but not when played. You might like it though so good luck with that.

(FeralFlame) #83

[quote=“tominatorx;145579”][quote=“Anaconda;145525”]
PS, your bias against fast paced combat is clear by your signature’s statement of "In the New Year…I hate Proxy even more. ". Of course you would love a patch that obliterates the many strengths of your least favorite class.
[/quote]

The reason why he wrote that in his signature (if I remember correctly), is because of the mine spam that a lot of proxy players use. I don’t think it had anything to do with bunnyhopping otherwise there would be also Auras name in there. At least that’s what I think. :)[/quote]

You forgot about sparks :scream:

(MTLMortis) #84

Good cuz’ that playstyle was total bs.

To quote someone above:

Fair is fair, even if Amerika doesn’t want it applied to bolt-action rifles. If you want to reduce the dmg of bolt-action rifles and revert the jump RNG for them, I would have no problem with that. Alternately, remove the bullet spread from Rhino while immobile and crouched and I’ll let you keep the damage while jumping. Fair deal?

(Amerika) #85

Haha, no way. Because the bolt-actions are only good if you can be mobile. Otherwise you’re kind of a noose around the neck of your team (as seen by literally anybody who has played DB). Giving a crouching rhino a laser beam doesn’t sound like a solid idea for balance!

(Jostabeere) #86

[quote=“Amerika;145712”]@Anaconda You keep implying that people want more “realism” or to “slow the game down” to appeal to casual players. Yet here I am, somebody who has played Q3 at the highest levels for over a decade among many other slower and faster games compared to Dirty Bomb and I am fine with this change in general (just not for bolt-action rifles).

Strafing and firing was not affected. Jumping and firing was not affected if you were using it in CQC in a skillfull manner. The ONLY way you are affected is if you were 15-20 yards away, in a fire fight, and started hopping and shooting. You can’t sit here and tell me that in a medium range fight you were skillfully jumping off of walls and winning fights. Any good player would laugh and kill you but be annoyed because it took more time since it’s harder to headshot and a less skilled player would be annoyed because it would make you harder to track.

Hopping and shooting at mid range was not “fast paced combat”. It’s a crutch that players use to stay alive longer than they should in a lot of scenarios while they roll the dice on their own shots and hopefully win out or at least stay alive. Your dice rolls are just less likely to work out for you in the scenario in which you were obviously jumping.

Also, I played OW day 1 in beta and it’s incredibly slow paced in a lot of ways and designed with a controller in mind in every aspect of it’s gameplay which causes it to be a game that looks good when viewed but not when played. You might like it though so good luck with that.[/quote]

Shots fired.

(tominatorx) #87

[quote=“FeralFlame;145728”][quote=“tominatorx;145579”][quote=“Anaconda;145525”]
PS, your bias against fast paced combat is clear by your signature’s statement of "In the New Year…I hate Proxy even more. ". Of course you would love a patch that obliterates the many strengths of your least favorite class.
[/quote]

The reason why he wrote that in his signature (if I remember correctly), is because of the mine spam that a lot of proxy players use. I don’t think it had anything to do with bunnyhopping otherwise there would be also Auras name in there. At least that’s what I think. :)[/quote]

You forgot about sparks :scream: [/quote]

Oh my bad. I’m very sorry. It’s just that I usually get killed from far away by Sparks. :slight_smile:

There you go I fixed it in my original post for you. :wink:

(MTLMortis) #88

That argument is getting a bit stale. If Vas’s learned to adapt and/or be effective there wouldn’t be so much complaining. You can be very mobile, you just can’t be a kangaroo on the front lines.

[quote=“Amerika;145774”]
Giving a crouching rhino a laser beam doesn’t sound like a solid idea for balance![/quote]

Of course not. The ridiculousness of that statement was meant to point out the absurdity of yours. You are thinking too linearly instead of redefining your view of a sniper/recon into the gameplay/playstyle that is most effective for the game mode.

(watsyurdeal) #89

That argument is getting a bit stale. If Vas’s learned to adapt and/or be effective there wouldn’t be so much complaining. You can be very mobile, you just can’t be a kangaroo on the front lines.

[quote=“Amerika;145774”]
Giving a crouching rhino a laser beam doesn’t sound like a solid idea for balance![/quote]

Of course not. The ridiculousness of that statement was meant to point out the absurdity of yours. You are thinking too linearly instead of redefining your view of a sniper/recon into the gameplay/playstyle that is most effective for the game mode.[/quote]

Technically it’s not redefining anything, it’s just a simple fact that this is not a stationary game. You can’t be sitting still for too long, unless you’re on defense or holding an objective.

You have to constantly be moving, that said, I don’t think jump shotting should be allowed unless it forces Vasilli to unscope when jump is pressed, so you have to time it. That coupled with removing sway will keep the skill floor for Vasilli high while also increasing the skill ceiling as well.

(Amerika) #90

That argument is getting a bit stale. If Vas’s learned to adapt and/or be effective there wouldn’t be so much complaining. You can be very mobile, you just can’t be a kangaroo on the front lines.

[quote=“Amerika;145774”]
Giving a crouching rhino a laser beam doesn’t sound like a solid idea for balance![/quote]

Of course not. The ridiculousness of that statement was meant to point out the absurdity of yours. You are thinking too linearly instead of redefining your view of a sniper/recon into the gameplay/playstyle that is most effective for the game mode.[/quote]

Except Vassili has worked like this for years until recently. He wasn’t considered OP or broken by anybody outside of the headshot gibs in high levels of competition where he could quickly sway the outcome of a match with a couple shots. That was recently removed.

So you’re argument is that giving Rhino a laser beam is the same thing as a mechanic that has been in the game for years and has been proven to be useful but not overpowered. Yes? This is your argument you’re going with?

You are thinking too linearly instead of redefining your view of a sniper/recon into the gameplay/playstyle that is most effective for the game mode.

You claim that I am thinking linearly when you’re whole argument is to remove all dynamic movement from snipers and require them to sit in one spot and rarely move. Could you please define how removing a combat option he’s had for years is more dynamic and not making him more linear for us? And could you outline how he is more effective for the gamestyle? I believe I did that myself in the other thread by giving a lot of examples of where it’s good but also how it can be countered and the pitfalls of it (and the much higher skill ceiling). If you’re going to claim somebody is being linear you better be prepared to defend it with a clear line of logic that makes sense.

Also, no Vas player jumps around the “front lines” like a “kangaroo” with a bolt-action rifle. Not a competent player anyway. Just like in the other thread…I am not sure you understand what the argument here even is.

(MTLMortis) #91

Linearly in that you are espousing that THIS is the only way to have a viable recon/sniper class, which is a ridiculous argument. Just because something is the way it is for years (like the cheating/aimbotting/triggerbotting/wallhacking) doesn’t mean it’s not fixed. Wall jumping Proxy combat shotgunning has been the way it’s been for years, but you’re not clamoring for a return to that. It’s okay that THAT was nerfed, but not THIS.

Instead of altering your playstyle to accomodate the change by moving behind your front and providing long range cover and forward intel with a good long toss of your beacon, you’re crying about jump shot RNG which I really don’t get. You need to adapt like everyone else.

Did we watch the same video you posted?

(Amerika) #92

[quote=“MTLMortis;146019”]Linearly in that you are espousing that THIS is the only way to have a viable recon/sniper class, which is a ridiculous argument. Just because something is the way it is for years (like the cheating/aimbotting/triggerbotting/wallhacking) doesn’t mean it’s not fixed. Wall jumping Proxy combat shotgunning has been the way it’s been for years, but you’re not clamoring for a return to that. It’s okay that THAT was nerfed, but not THIS.

Instead of altering your playstyle to accomodate the change by moving behind your front and providing long range cover and forward intel with a good long toss of your beacon, you’re crying about jump shot RNG which I really don’t get. You need to adapt like everyone else.

Did we watch the same video you posted?[/quote]

You aren’t answering my question. Please provide a logic path as to how it makes the game better. Not a “jumping is like an aimbot/wallhack” scenario or a “Rhino should get a laser gun” comparison. That’s just deflection or sometimes called a strawman.

I already outlined the playstyle you had before with peeking but are now currently completely railroaded into only peeking. Which, COINCIDENTALLY, makes him much much easier to fight and less of a threat for people who “hate snipers”. Before the change you had other options that you could use to be successful and be of value to your team. How is the bolt-action playstyle less linear now compared to how you could play before and how has it added more value to a team? I really want you to explain this beyond, “I hate snipers”.

Jumping Proxies were already not very accurate. They are now slightly less accurate after the change. You can still jump and shoot and hit but you’re simply less likely to do it at slightly further ranges. Bolt-action rifles were always accurate when jumping and scoping and didn’t even have the jump ADS bug (that was supposed to be a feature). And just because on thing was changed doesn’t mean another has to. This isn’t an “eye for an eye” discussion. It’s a balance discussion and a playstyle discussion.

And yes, we watched the same video. I don’t jump shoot people in CQC.

(MTLMortis) #93

Right, so then please elaborate on why the change should be reverted only for bolt-action rifles. As it is you’re asking for favoritism of one class of weapon over the other. If SD wants jump combat as a feature, then revert it entirely. I don’t see why I should be penalized trying to take out the sniper by wall jumping and he is not. There’s a reason the sniper rifles do the most damage of all weapons. Big damage but longer delay between shots. That is the balance. Shot RNG has nothing to do with it. Now, everyone that is jumping gets a penalty to aim. That is also balanced. It’s a trade off. If you jump you get a penalty to aim. If you stand still you have a higher chance of being hit, but your aim is also not affected. Vas already has an advantage in being able to do full damage at all ranges.

My jumping Proxy was pretty damned accurate and is a lot less now. No I do not blind fire, I track with the reticle before I fire. Now it’s simply not worth the ammo expenditure. 15-20 feet out it’s useless if mobile combat was your preferred playstyle.

Quite possibly they shouldn’t have been. It’s only as the game evolves that people see/request changes be made. Devs can’t always predict how players and playstyles will evolve. Sure your playstyle is a niche and requires a higher degree of skill than most others but that does not mean that it is how the class is intended to be played.

(XavienX) #94

Wow, 2 battles in 2 threads between the same people. I just don’t get what’s so hard to understand that jumpshot kills are from skill. Not from luck most of the time. Especially for Vassili where accuracy plays the whole role when jumpshotting.

(MTLMortis) #95

We aren’t “battling”, we have a difference of opinion on the validity of playstyles. We basically disagree, that’s nothing new, but discussing it does at least provide insight so that we can consider the other’s point of view.

(Amerika) #96

[quote=“MTLMortis;146068”]Right, so then please elaborate on why the change should be reverted only for bolt-action rifles. As it is you’re asking for favoritism of one class of weapon over the other. If SD wants jump combat as a feature, then revert it entirely. I don’t see why I should be penalized trying to take out the sniper by wall jumping and he is not. There’s a reason the sniper rifles do the most damage of all weapons. Big damage but longer delay between shots. That is the balance. Shot RNG has nothing to do with it. Now, everyone that is jumping gets a penalty to aim. That is also balanced. It’s a trade off. If you jump you get a penalty to aim. If you stand still you have a higher chance of being hit, but your aim is also not affected. Vas already has an advantage in being able to do full damage at all ranges.

My jumping Proxy was pretty damned accurate and is a lot less now. No I do not blind fire, I track with the reticle before I fire. Now it’s simply not worth the ammo expenditure. 15-20 feet out it’s useless if mobile combat was your preferred playstyle.

Quite possibly they shouldn’t have been. It’s only as the game evolves that people see/request changes be made. Devs can’t always predict how players and playstyles will evolve. Sure your playstyle is a niche and requires a higher degree of skill than most others but that does not mean that it is how the class is intended to be played.[/quote]

Yes, it is favoritism in a manner of speaking Because Vassili’s value goes down drastically with the change compared to a jumping Proxy who, by comparison, was barely affected by the change. I don’t want every SMG to take a DPS hit if the Kek10 was nerfed. Yet that’s your logic in regards to this change.

You still haven’t done what I asked. Provide the logic path of how the game is now better and how Vassili’s playstyle and value is better with this change. And identify how he was “OP” before (like, give situations). So far you’ve talked about Rhino having a laser, comparing it to aimbots/wallhacks, “eye for an eye” balancing where “well my proxy was affected so your Vassili should be too” and other rather ridiculous things that has nothing to do with balancing Vassili himself and making him fun and versatile and all the things needed for a faster paced FPS game (not 3km shots with bullet drop in BF4). All of that makes it very hard to take you seriously on this subject.

So, again, how is the game improved both in regards to Vassili play and the game overall. Like, what is your logic path for improvement here that makes everything better and makes Vassili competitive in both a pub sense and a competitive 5v5 sense. And no, “you just have to adapt” can’t be used as a copout.

I’ve outlined my reasoning pretty clearly. Let’s hear yours.

We aren’t “battling”, we have a difference of opinion on the validity of playstyles. We basically disagree, that’s nothing new, but discussing it does at least provide insight so that we can consider the other’s point of view.

[/quote]

I can agree to this. Which is why I am pressing you on your chain of logic that can show me how this change makes sense beyond you simply wanting to see Vassili nerfed so you don’t have to deal with him. Because that’s what it seems like you want as opposed to it being a good change for everyone.

(Jesus) #97

[quote=“Jostabeere;144267”][quote=“SnakekillerX;144264”]The way some people are describing things its like if there is a rhino and you are a proxy, then don’t even try. Well, what if I need to plant the bomb and there is a rhino guarding it? What if my team is dead and its my only opening. I figure it would still be better to try than not to.

I also don’t feel like I should have to 100% rely on my team to take out 1 player, regardless of the merc.[/quote]

And you’re describing it like you can’t face a Rhino at all but only with jumping off of walls.[/quote]

when you have a proxy you cant really go alone agaisnt a rhino if you cant jump shot him.
I mean you can try with exploding the mine on him but one wont kill him, not even two i think. So in the end on 80% of the time youll get killed. And no i dont think we should have to rely on a team because not everyone plays comp with a teamspeak actually most players dont they play pub with no real instant communication and you know as well as me that the kind of cooperation you described almost never happen in pubs which has the most player and the biggest part of the game and therefor should be more taken in account and the scenario in game shouldt be pre defined by which merc you are playing or else there is no point playing any more. It always feel amazing to be able to kick his ass to full life rhino with a squishy merc because of your skill, may it be bunnyhoping skill, because if the rhino isnt too dumb he will get his shotgun erase you. Now if everything is predicted like that by which merc you play there is no room for movement skill anymore or even just any skill and the only skill that will be valued in the game will be tactical skill and this game isnt a tactical shooter.

(Jesus) #98

Jump shotting for vassilis needs to be back thats not even a point to discuss

(Sinee) #99

[quote=“Amerika;146989”][quote=“MTLMortis;146068”]Right, so then please elaborate on why the change should be reverted only for bolt-action rifles. As it is you’re asking for favoritism of one class of weapon over the other. If SD wants jump combat as a feature, then revert it entirely. I don’t see why I should be penalized trying to take out the sniper by wall jumping and he is not. There’s a reason the sniper rifles do the most damage of all weapons. Big damage but longer delay between shots. That is the balance. Shot RNG has nothing to do with it. Now, everyone that is jumping gets a penalty to aim. That is also balanced. It’s a trade off. If you jump you get a penalty to aim. If you stand still you have a higher chance of being hit, but your aim is also not affected. Vas already has an advantage in being able to do full damage at all ranges.

My jumping Proxy was pretty damned accurate and is a lot less now. No I do not blind fire, I track with the reticle before I fire. Now it’s simply not worth the ammo expenditure. 15-20 feet out it’s useless if mobile combat was your preferred playstyle.

Quite possibly they shouldn’t have been. It’s only as the game evolves that people see/request changes be made. Devs can’t always predict how players and playstyles will evolve. Sure your playstyle is a niche and requires a higher degree of skill than most others but that does not mean that it is how the class is intended to be played.[/quote]

Yes, it is favoritism in a manner of speaking Because Vassili’s value goes down drastically with the change compared to a jumping Proxy who, by comparison, was barely affected by the change. I don’t want every SMG to take a DPS hit if the Kek10 was nerfed. Yet that’s your logic in regards to this change.

You still haven’t done what I asked. Provide the logic path of how the game is now better and how Vassili’s playstyle and value is better with this change. And identify how he was “OP” before (like, give situations). So far you’ve talked about Rhino having a laser, comparing it to aimbots/wallhacks, “eye for an eye” balancing where “well my proxy was affected so your Vassili should be too” and other rather ridiculous things that has nothing to do with balancing Vassili himself and making him fun and versatile and all the things needed for a faster paced FPS game (not 3km shots with bullet drop in BF4). All of that makes it very hard to take you seriously on this subject.

So, again, how is the game improved both in regards to Vassili play and the game overall. Like, what is your logic path for improvement here that makes everything better and makes Vassili competitive in both a pub sense and a competitive 5v5 sense. And no, “you just have to adapt” can’t be used as a copout.

I’ve outlined my reasoning pretty clearly. Let’s hear yours.

We aren’t “battling”, we have a difference of opinion on the validity of playstyles. We basically disagree, that’s nothing new, but discussing it does at least provide insight so that we can consider the other’s point of view.

[/quote]

I can agree to this. Which is why I am pressing you on your chain of logic that can show me how this change makes sense beyond you simply wanting to see Vassili nerfed so you don’t have to deal with him. Because that’s what it seems like you want as opposed to it being a good change for everyone.[/quote]

(PleasantWheat) #100

Damn… the salt in this discussion could fuel a maccas for months…

And here I am only being annoyed that long jumping to wall jumping off of corners to surprise people has been made less reliable. 0.0