The case for mod/map support. Let's convince SD why it's a good business decision.

[tokamak]

And yet that’s exactly what Blizzard is working on. And it’s going to work because they draw a clear line between the stock content, the custom content and the market content even though they release on all three fronts themselves as well.

[iwound]

Not sure about that. .

well who do they get to test/check their own maps?
Answer, the same people who test custom maps.
Its a huge task. For which you need a lot of people. And a lot of money to invest in, if done internally.
Even then an exploit or bug can be buried anywhere in a levels code.
And you can only do something about it if you know about it.

It has to be separate from the stats if in-game global stats exist. itll be ranked/unranked. its a simple answer and cost you nothing.
it would be better if stats were left to the individual servers but I expect it will happen.
But i could live with that if running customs was easy for a player to do.
so they could easily play ranked/unranked together without having to troll through a long thread in the forum.

[QUOTE=SockDog;425569]
Custom maps go in at Tier 3. Most popular map of the month is picked, reviewed and released as Tier 2 a month later. Maybe make it every two months and you still get 6 custom maps over the year.[/QUOTE]

Dont know if Youve noticed but mapmakers maps generally spawn in a wave and not at specific dates and drip fed one at a time. unless you want trash that is. typically a level can easily take a year to complete or just a week or two.
typically you wont have any releases for a few months.

Im not against the concept of SD taking a community map and officialising it. But it wont be on mass.

I like the idea of a map making contest.

[tokamak]

Splash Damage only needs to sit at the very end of the line check the few rare gems that may get nominated to be included into the stock content.

[SockDog]

[QUOTE=iwound;425579]well who do they get to test/check their own maps?
Answer, the same people who test custom maps.
Its a huge task. For which you need a lot of people. And a lot of money to invest in, if done internally.
Even then an exploit or bug can be buried anywhere in a levels code.
And you can only do something about it if you know about it.[/quote]

As said, the community play the maps and the best get selected. Are you saying community maps aren’t worth SD’s time to make official but SD’s own maps are? Then why even play custom maps? You’re also talking about tester time not the entire art and design team which would be needed for an SD map. Ultimately the decision needs to be whether SD gets an ROI by having an active inhouse and custom map line up.

As far as accidental exploits these can come in official maps too, malicious ones? Well that’s that mapper’s career over.

It’s also possible that upon selecting a map, that nominated testers could pick it apart for SD in the same way we’re pouring over their maps. May only be a fraction of the workload but it’s something.

It has to be separate from the stats if in-game global stats exist. itll be ranked/unranked. its a simple answer and cost you nothing.
it would be better if stats were left to the individual servers but I expect it will happen.
But i could live with that if running customs was easy for a player to do.
so they could easily play ranked/unranked together without having to troll through a long thread in the forum.

People want stats and if it’s presented on official maps a total absence on custom will limit those who play. At least offering stats for both but easily divisible for those who care you get the best of both worlds.

Dont know if Youve noticed but mapmakers maps generally spawn in a wave and not at specific dates and drip fed one at a time. unless you want trash that is. typically a level can easily take a year to complete or just a week or two.
typically you wont have any releases for a few months.

Not sure what your point is here. If there is no quality maps for 6 months or a year (although this thread was intended to push for early release of software to allow the creation to begin before release) then SD doesn’t start the program for that long. If 10 awesome maps release at the same time then the most popular of those will go through. I don’t understand why you’re being so negative about something that means custom maps get greater exposure and plays.

Im not against the concept of SD taking a community map and officialising it. But it wont be on mass.

I like the idea of a map making contest.

Who said en masse? I was saying one a month maybe less.

[iwound]

Im not trying to be negative just practical. its a libran trate.

Lets use an example. Look at all the Quake Wars customs and you tell me which ones could be considered good enough to be official.
id be interested to know. you get extra points for choosing mine.

heres a list, a bit out of date. man i cant believe thats 3 years ago.
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/20197-Custom-level-list

[Donnovan]

I was lying about to be lying about ignore posts.

Got it?

SD needs people with courage, people that lived even on tough moments. Not cowards that not even tried.

This pure “if this if that if i live” says nothing to no one.

Bye Bye

And if you feel your self ofended with the words “coward” you should not be, because i do not feel ofended to have worked years on a “failed custom comunity”.

[Mustang]

There is not a lot cooler than as a freelance map designer to have your map picked up by the developers and integrated into the game.

I mean if SD would do this, wowzerz talk about supporting and listening to the community!

Having said that how are we going to get people to buy a map that they were previously able to play for free just for the addition of stats?

I wonder if it needs some extra thinking, for example instead of selling for £2, sell it for £5 and chuck in an extra character skin as well, just a thought.

[Chris2]

Custom maps should not be sold, period. Same for SD new maps.

Look at all the Quake Wars customs and you tell me which ones could be considered good enough to be official.

As said before, one problem with making customs into official maps is that they would most likely have follow certain criteria in order to be considered. Let’s imagine there was such a system for ET:QW. Megatextures would probably be a requirement, that rules out Maridia, Meltdown, Tourian, Battlestrogg, Canal, Baserace, Sky and some others. Bot support would be another requirement, ruling out all my maps and few others. Objectives wouldn’t be able to be skipped and have to be completed in a linear fashion, ruling out Radar. Deployables would be another, ruling out most of my maps. Fun maps and experimental maps would not be included such as hoggin, sky, battlestrogg/tourian, brinstar, retake of the forums and baserace.

Basically you’ve just prevented some awesomely creative maps from reaching a wider audience.

Another problem is once a map makes it into official status work would probably cease on it, I’m sure everyone who has made maps know that a map is never finished, the great thing about custom maps is they can be worked on for as long as the author is willing to, being updated and perfected over a longer time free from any constraints.

I reckon it’s just enough to make custom maps hassle free to install and play and will go a large way to ensure people play them and support the custom scene. Some coverage and promotion of notable releases and such like the Snap to Grid articles they did for ET:QW but perhaps pushed through the launcher as well as the webpage would be great too.

[maxxxxlol]

Yeah maps should never be sold. Best way to segregate the community.

[iwound]

^ well said Chris.

I will just add that although i would love an sdk i dont want to push SD into giving it to us. or moan about it not being done.
They have said they want it and will do it if possible. thats good enough for me.
Let them concentrate on the game first and look forward to an sdk later.
Also id like to focus on the game atm and enjoy it.

[SockDog]

@iwound
I didn’t play ETQW custom maps so I have zero opinion on which is best. In DB you could have people play the map, put in a certain number of hours etc before they can even cast a vote. SD could even take the 5 five maps of that month (or period of your choosing) and select from those one they want to give an SD QA pass over.

@.Chris.
You’d have to differentiate the content while still offering benefits that DB offers even if this is separated between content types. As such a map’s requirements would probably extend to allowing F2P content to be bought for cash but not through in game coins. Want to make a 1v1 tourney map and mode, go for it. Want it to have a higher stature on the DB platform and drive revenue for SD, make it official custom. Want to update it. Publish the update as beta in the custom map and SD will do a QA pass every few months etc.

I understand where you’re both coming from but I also feel there are ways around the issues that means we can get custom maps without them being buried from the vast majority of the player base. Those maps and content can also earn revenue for SD and so would warrant their attention too.

[Patriotqube]

IF it will be possible for mappers to make custommaps then i cincerely hope that adding them to a server, works like it does in WET and not like it did in ETQW where you couldnt download maps from server.

and please dont do it as in Brink where new maps came with a DLC, makes it impossible to ad them to a server (atleast fior me) as not all ppl will have them

[LaVaGoD]

I have been away for a bit as my wife was in India for an extended amount of time, and I had 3 kids to take care of so that left little time for me to even look at a computer.

I have not read through all the post which I plan to do today. I just wanted to extend my support for a version of an SDK. What that SDK contains I’m not sure yet as this is not a straight forward subject as some might think. There are a lot of things to consider with how a tool set fits into the business model of the game. I know SD wants to support their fans but at the same time there is a business to run so things can be done in haste and have to be completely hashed out before they jump on something.

I have some idea but I will make a second post later today once I get off work. I don’t want to rush through posting something as I’m at work and got many distractions right now.

[Chris2]

IF it will be possible for mappers to make custommaps then i cincerely hope that adding them to a server, works like it does in WET and not like it did in ETQW where you couldnt download maps from server.

Except you could download maps from the server…

[QUOTE=SockDog;425843]
You’d have to differentiate the content while still offering benefits that DB offers even if this is separated between content types. As such a map’s requirements would probably extend to allowing F2P content to be bought for cash but not through in game coins. Want to make a 1v1 tourney map and mode, go for it. Want it to have a higher stature on the DB platform and drive revenue for SD, make it official custom. Want to update it. Publish the update as beta in the custom map and SD will do a QA pass every few months etc.[/QUOTE]

Differentiate which content exactly? You mean good vs bad custom content or custom vs stock content? Either way I reckon just having two server types would suffice, pure and custom. The inferior content will simply not be played, there’s 1000s of maps for ET, only handful find success, the community can deal with it themselves. I just don’t understand this fetish with making things ‘official’, supply depot didn’t become the most played custom map in ET because it was made official.

Anyway, what SD could do is to make something akin to steam workshop, a platform where users can upload, download and install content, and importantly rate the content, perhaps only if the user has actually downloaded the content to help limit abuse. SD could promote notable works, hold competitions, conduct interviews and so on, all of which would be easily seen from the launcher as well as the main webpage.

I doubt SD would find it very fun to test each beta version of a custom map, I may be wrong but only ‘final’ versions of maps are generally considered and used when other companies put custom maps into their game. Also am I only one who thinks testing custom maps is too much to ask from SD? Playing them of their own free will and giving advice in the modding section of forums perhaps but expecting them to sit down and test external works just feels really strange to me.

[Dragonji]

[QUOTE=Donnovan;425722]I was lying about to be lying about ignore posts.

Got it?[/QUOTE]
You should smoke less weed, really.

[SockDog]

Differentiate which content exactly? You mean good vs bad custom content or custom vs stock content? Either way I reckon just having two server types would suffice, pure and custom. The inferior content will simply not be played, there’s 1000s of maps for ET, only handful find success, the community can deal with it themselves. I just don’t understand this fetish with making things ‘official’, supply depot didn’t become the most played custom map in ET because it was made official.

Float the good custom content to the top. Either passively via something like play hours or actively through voting/thumbs. This isn’t really any different to what you’re saying above, good content being recognised, I’m just saying put in a mechanic to identify that good content.

Not wriggling out of your point here but I do feel W:ET and Q3 etc was a different time and custom maps were more the norm. I’m not sure if the wider market would be willing to install maps, update them and accept there would be a limited playerbase for those maps. Mostly though would that playerbase be willing to give up all the stuff official maps offer with stats and content? It was bad enough getting people onto an unranked server in ETQW.

Anyway, what SD could do is to make something akin to steam workshop, a platform where users can upload, download and install content, and importantly rate the content, perhaps only if the user has actually downloaded the content to help limit abuse. SD could promote notable works, hold competitions, conduct interviews and so on, all of which would be easily seen from the launcher as well as the main webpage.

Yes, I could see this as being a good option too. I guess I’m just saying with the whole “Official” thing is it brings custom content in line with Official content. That it lowers this barrier that it’s sub-par quality, difficult or limited in some way. It would also mean SD could hooks it into their F2P revenue generation. That, IMO, is the important part here, that custom content shouldn’t be hidden behind a financial barrier but it MUST contribute towards SD’s profits. And hell, you could even offer the map makers a percentage of revenue earned through their maps.

I doubt SD would find it very fun to test each beta version of a custom map, I may be wrong but only ‘final’ versions of maps are generally considered and used when other companies put custom maps into their game. Also am I only one who thinks testing custom maps is too much to ask from SD? Playing them of their own free will and giving advice in the modding section of forums perhaps but expecting them to sit down and test external works just feels really strange to me.

I approach this from the point of view that it is considered an investment. If they can turn a profit by employing people to do whatever needs to be done to “officialise” a map and generate revenue then it’s worthwhile. And when I say Beta I was referring to you stating that maps continue to have updates past Final. These all seem to be small points though, technicalities. What should be established is how does custom content contribute to SDs business and so justify an SDK, that is funnily enough the point of my original post. Wanting an SDK and the content it generates is largely moot because we’d of course want that.

So, how would your super popular custom map put money in SD’s pocket and so keep DB a viable service? If people only played custom maps would SD earn anything? Who’s going to pay for all that work to produce an SDK in the first place? It’s not retail sales.

[Dragonji]

I don’t think custom maps as paid DLC service would be a good idea, especially for server admins who simply would like to have as many players as possible on their server so they would rather avoid installing maps that not all may have.

[SockDog]

No they shouldn’t be paid DLC but they need to compensate SD in some way, hence the thread topic.

With custom content the assumption is that many, if not all, the mechanics that SD will use to drive revenue will not be possible. Maybe you can buy cosmetic items still but it’s pretty much a given that things like stats (and so perhaps Echo/advanced stats services) won’t be supported. Will clan/league systems support them in relation to purchasable services? Will people play custom content if there is no XP/Coins gained from playing in order to unlock something?

And again, why should SD invest money into making something that may have a tiny impact, if any, on their revenue? IMO it would be better to spend such resources on actual game features that would drive revenue directly. Make their own maps and modes. Seems to me that every argument here against integrating custom content into DB pretty much says, “Don’t bother with an SDK because it’s not a good business decision”.

To be clear. I’d love to see an SDK and play custom maps/mods that people create. I’m looking at this from their perspective though, no as a selfish gamer who just wants more and moar! Such a decision needs to be a financially sound one for SD and we can help with that reasoning by finding a way that custom content can live alongside SD’s need to make money. If we/they fail to do that then I wouldn’t have a single problem with SD just not doing it at all.

[LaVaGoD]

I have been thinking about this for quite a while now when I first saw Paul mentioned the desire for an SDK. I have not been able to read all the posts in this thread so I don’t know if this has been mentioned. I do see some comments from SockDog that might be similar to what I have been thinking.

I don’t know how many of you know my history, but I have been modifying games since the days of D00M. I spent a lot of time with the Q3F team during the Quake 3 Fortress days and helped lead the team that brought Enemy Territory Fortress to the masses (Had an awesome team of developers!). I’m a huge fan of development kits as you can see from the history above.

Having an SDK for the sake of having an SDK might not be the best thing to do. You really have to look at the structure of the game, target audience and business model. If these don’t all line up you have to take a step back and reevaluate the whole SDK thing.

Please don’t beat me up for what I mentioned above as again I’m a huge fan of Mods. What I think might work for DB and SplashDamage I have listed below.

Proposal:
I would love to see SplashDamage partner with some mod teams to help bring custom content to the game under the DB title. This helps bring mods to the game without the risk or logistical nightmare of releasing a full development kit and the pains of supporting the transactions system.

SD would come alongside the teams and provide guidance and support to help with the release of the Mod. The Mod would be released by SD under the SD name to help control the process (This could include a lot of things like QA and PR). The Mods would hook into the store and help provide an extra stream of revenue for SD. Compensation for the Mod teams might be a sticky subject but something that could be worked out. I look at this more of a way for fans and Mod developers to help give back, but also get a quality product out the door. It’s also a great stepping stone for independent developers and people looking for a foot in the door of the Game Development world to add this to their portfolio.

To give an example of a Mod that would fall under the above proposal. I would love to see an old school Fortress modification for Dirty Bomb. There is already a large fan base for the style and with TF2 being far into its release players could be looking for some classic TF. There are many ways the store could be applied to the game (Don’t have to go exactly the direction TF2 did) to add revenue. The mod would be released under the DirtyBomb name as DirtyBomb: Fortress or something similar.

This is just something I have been tossing around and think would fit quite well with the direction SplashDamage is going with DirtyBomb.

[SockDog]

Would love to see SD do something like this during the Alpha/Beta so that at least some people get a running start. Ideally, over time, the process could be expanded and widened to eventually include an open SDK and the sort of peer review system I’ve mentioned before to nominate maps/mods for the SD treatment.

I think for the Mappers and Modders get a percentage of the revenue earned within the map/mod would be a fair compromise and allow SD to offset their costs, with a decent profit, while still rewarding the community who is doing a lot of the lifting.

Ultimately I think DB needs to be seen as a fast evolving platform and I’m not sure SD is capable of keeping up on their own. Sure, we want quality and consistency but unless SD is going to hire a ton of talent they simply can’t work on everything.

My concern with limited teams is whether they are capable of follow through. I think the worst thing would be to allow 2-3 groups to work on something and have none get anywhere near a suitable product. That’s a risk for SD but I’d leave that decision to SD and their relationships with such teams.

So can we summon Locki to get this show on the road?