The case for mod/map support. Let's convince SD why it's a good business decision.

(SockDog) #1

TL : DR at the bottom

SD clearly has nothing against modding, mapping and general fiddling with their games. I believe however that there are two main obstacles to us having mod and map tools.

Firstly. The current SDK for Dirty Bomb is part of a local network development suite. This basically means that any SDK made available to the public would require coding from SD to work. It’s not simply a matter of taking the tools and making them available to download. You can read this as there needs to be a return on investment for doing this.

Secondly. That if they could recover the cost of developing a distributable SDK then they also need to know that doing so would, at least, not eat into their F2P profits and, even better, help boost those profits.

So the point of this thread? Well I think we need to give SD some ammunition to make the choice to provide an SDK and support mods and maps. Lets use this as a place to brainstorm a little, put down some ideas, concepts, plans that can work for us AND SD.

Try to keep things positive, by all means expand on an idea. Take bits and offer alternatives but don’t turn this into an assassination thread where ideas are only destroyed. SD can make the decision on whether something is worthy of exploring, right now we need to show them that it’s worth considering in the first place.

TL : DR
Share your ideas on how supporting Mod/Maps could be profitable for SD. Don’t be a dick.

(SockDog) #2

So we’re a little blind right now, with not knowing what SD is planning to do with their payments but lets just drop some ideas down anyway.

Give the ability to Mod/Map but distribution has to be through SDs own channel whereby they can earn a percentage on sales.
This could work well if people are doing things like weapon or player skins, maybe likewise for models etc.

On maps I’d like to think they’d be free to avoid splitting the community, yet if there were community created maps would people begrudge paying say £1 for the map? 50p to the map maker and 50p to SD? If a map existed in a server rotation the client could notify you of the map needed, how much it is, reviews, how many of your friends list owns it already etc. That’s a pretty hard sell, not sure if I’d object to that if I hadn’t thought of it myself. :slight_smile:

The point there is that SD need not compete with mappers/modders but embrace and work with them.

On the subject of maps/mods I’d also like to say that unless sanctioned by SD for inclusion in the global stats a map/mod would only collect stats related to that map/mod version. I would suppose this could be done by calculating some sort of hash file from the map data. This way you still get stats and such but you preserve the accuracy of those stats by being able to split them into groups. Anyway back to justification.

What else… SDK access could be done through a login into SD’s network. You may need to pay a small amount for this but would have access to more tools and materials than you’d normally get. Perhaps this is something that could be entertained for a small group of modders/mappers to get some custom content flowing as the game is released then a full SDK strategy could be formed later on.

Will think on this a bit more but I tend to work better as more ideas are put about so please contribute otherwise SD will modify a kitten’s life.

(SinDonor) #3

First, here’s my ideas for monetization for F2P games, followed by my opinion of the maps/mods:

  1. Allow players to buy single pieces of anything. Guns, attachments, armor, hats, tattoos, etc. Set low low prices on single items. $1 here, $0.25 there, etc. If a player likes the game and only has $20 to spend, you might as well give them the opportunity to spend their entire $20 and let them have a good time. If the game is going to mimic Counterstrike more than Brink/CoD/etc, then obviously the guns/attachments can’t be for sale. It’ll have to totally be based around player customization. On that note, then make lots of kick ass unique gear for players.

  2. Offer a “buy it all” full-game price. $40-$60 is what I would consider a good “you get everything currently available” deal, which saves the player 25-50% if they went out and bought every single thing separately. Maybe a 2nd option that bumps it up to $80-$100 to promise that “not only do you get everything NOW, but you get everything we release later as well”. I’m the kind of person that if I like the game, you can have all my money.

  3. Whatever the default weapons and equipment are available for free, you have to make sure it’s balanced enough that players can still have fun. If the free stuff TOTALLY sucks, you’ll scare away new players.

  4. Every few weeks, or month or etc, offer some new stuff. Sell it piece by piece or in a DLC pack for $5-$20. If people are still playing the game, they’ll appreciate the updated content and will probably part with $10 (around the same price for a super-sized value meal at McD’s).

  5. Ad space in game. If we’re fighting on the streets here in planet earth, then there should be billboards and ads everywhere. Sell that space. I could care less if I see ads of Coke, the Gap, Ford, etc. As long as the ads are many and varied, it’ll look great. If every frakking ad is a Coke ad, then it’ll ruin the experience.

So, with all that said, if you let the user community make the maps, that’s one less thing for SD to have to waste time and money on, yet will be a huge benefit to the game’s life expectancy. If the game is FUN, but only ships with 10 maps, and half of the maps are poop (they always are for every game), then people will likely get bored waiting for SD to release a new map pack. Then, the pressure’s on SD to make a KICK ASS map pack with 10 new maps. If they fail and the map pack comes out with only 2 maps (ahem, Brink) and we have to wait another 1-6 months for the next map pack, this could kill the community. Even if the map packs each contained 6 maps, inevitably, 3 of the will be meh. So, why bother?

Let the user-community make the maps. Sure 90% of the maps that are created every month will be hot flaming garbage, but for the 10% that are great that’s dozens of new maps for us to play and stay interested in the game. Hell, SD can even place big gold stars next to their favorite maps so new users will know which maps to look for if they don’t trust the community. But if the game lives on through user-created maps and mods, then people will still be interested in other pay-for content from SD.

To me it is a no-brainer. But I dunno the level of complexity and cost on SD’s end. If it came down to just an argument of monetization, let the maps and mods be created by the user community and all the other stuff be created and SOLD by SD. Free maps and mods-> game longevity -> more opportunity to offer pay-for content.

(SockDog) #4

Thanks Sin. You might want to post that first half in the F2P thread too as it’s good feedback there and I wouldn’t mine chipping in on the ad space topic (ahhh the ETQW memories).

So basically your premise is that maps and mods will ensure a healthy active player base from which SD will get more revenue through sales. It’s a very good point and bypasses what I suggested in selling maps at a small price, maybe even 25p a go.

Come on people!

(amazinglarry) #5

The only problem I have with mods is how uncontrolled and volatile they can be. I admit, I haven’t really played anything that had as much modded since the first ET (since I mostly played ranked QW)… but wow did that get out of hand. Every Joe Schmoe had their own sound packs of them re-recording the voice overs just because they could.

Now obviously the flipside to this is stuff like OSP (RtCW) and ETPro et al… so I’m totally cool with and open to Mods but I’d like to see some ahhhhh… well, let’s just say “safe haven” for Vanilla (or ProMod) type players. Of course, that’s all dependent on the community who’s willing to support and host servers, too.

Getting back to the main topic at hand…

Having the ability to have the community design and release maps where the good ones are adopted takes some of the burden off the devs to keep pumping out new maps. I think the value there is pretty apparent.

Secondly, a lot of the best ideas have come from competition-geared mods, that help fix certain bugs, or balance certain maps/player abilities for competitive play. Having something out that could potentially be rolled into an official patch would be awesome.

I just ask that nobody mods the ability to toss health packs 500 yards <3

(Pytox) #6

Maybe there could be something like a montly map pack with some of the best custom made maps :slight_smile:

(stealth6) #7

They could charge a subscription fee for access to modding / mapping - pays off the tools at least.
Or something like greenlight, release tools but everything has to be submitted and voted on, and it costs a fee to submit stuff. (don’t really think this would work though unless as sockdog said the mod / map is then be sold and they’d get a part of the profit)

Also another problem that I’m not sure SockDog raised is that the servers are going to be ranked so you can’t run any mod / map on them and as we saw in QW unranked servers aren’t the most popular. So you’d need some kind of verification to get your content on ranked servers.

Kind of skipping the part of getting the SDk in the first place :smiley:

(light_sh4v0r) #8

mod/map support is fun, because fooling around in editors is fun, and playing broken maps with fun people is fun too :slight_smile:
And occasionally you get maps that aren’t broken at all, bonus!

(stealth6) #9

[QUOTE=light_sh4v0r;411030]mod/map support is fun, because fooling around in editors is fun, and playing broken maps with fun people is fun too :slight_smile:
And occasionally you get maps that aren’t broken at all, bonus![/QUOTE]

Unfortunately SD can’t buy a meal with fun.

(Pytox) #10

Although more maps = could mean more users to play the game and buy more stuff :slight_smile:

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #11

I’ve haven’t played a game yet where the developer alone could keep up with my voracious appetite for new maps. New maps keep me playing your games. I’m a he’ll of a lot more likely to buy stuff if I keep playing your game.
That’s about as simple as I can make it.

(SockDog) #12

Thanks guys.

Just a reminder on the theme. Try and keep posts to discussing ???. What is going to make SD profit by doing this, either directly or indirectly. We have to convince them that mods support is worthwhile and that the results of mod support is worthwhile.

By all means expand on good methods of controlling mods but only if you feel that would justify a means to make more money directly or as a result of getting more players.

(DarkangelUK) #13

I think SD would need to lay down the law and add some stringent guidelines for mod/map submission, the submitted content would need to meet the criteria before even being considered and making it through to the QA phase.

Just brain farting here but and bare with me before shouting NOOOO!.. ranked and unranked servers. I said bare with me before shouting no ffs! Maps that make it through the 1st phase of QA are then added to ‘Testing Unranked Servers’ for a weeks folly, people need to experience a map or mod before deciding ‘yeah that’s good, i’d pay for that’… then SD add something like Steams Greenlight project where maps and mods can be submitted for approval to be included and added to the official ranked servers via purchase.

Or skip the whole unranked part, go straight to the Dirty Greenlight phase and when SD QA 5 maps they release the Dirty Map Bundle for a few quid or individual maps for a quid each.

(Pytox) #14

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;411122]
Or skip the whole unranked part, go straight to the Dirty Greenlight phase and when SD QA 5 maps they release the Dirty Map Bundle for a few quid or individual maps for a quid each.[/QUOTE]
This would be probably best but I don’t know if they could invest the time implementing all this

(zenstar) #15

I know I keep mentioning TF2 but it is a good example:
They allow user created content and will incorporate the best user content into the official game. The official servers will only play official maps, but you can hop onto a private server and play some user created maps.

Maps should not cost money. New maps mean new content mean players stay engaged. The longer your players stay engaged the more new players they attract. The more players playing your game the more money will be spent.
If there are other user content changes allowed (mutators? models? guns? who knows) then those can always be incorporated and sold as new items (TF2 gives the original creators a cut of the sales… but I’m not a lawyer. figure that stuff out with them).

I do not think maps should be sold. It splits the community and you don’t want to split a f2p community. Popular paid for games can get away with it because the people involved are already pot commited, but f2p games rely on a large free audience to make up meat shields for paid members to shoot at. If there are no people on the new maps then noone is going to buy them (especially after the first batch that they never get to play).

You also want people to remain engaged with your game. The longer they play the more money they will spend. Compared this to a boxed game where you already have their money so you’re not too concerned if they stick around for 2 months or 6 months or a year (financially concerned at least) because they’re no longer giving you money. F2P thrives by constantly engaging and it does this by constantly adding new content. The longer people play your F2P game the more likely it is they’ll buy a little something. The more they buy the more committed they are the more they spend and the more people they try to lure in.

I think modding tools are required. Let people experiment on private / unranked servers and keep an eye on what people consider popular. You’re getting people to generate and test free content for your game this way.

(Pytox) #16

The maps don’t have to cost money but there could be free map packs so people instantly have more maps
compared to them having to search for custom maps themselves

(zenstar) #17

[QUOTE=Pytox;411156]The maps don’t have to cost money but there could be free map packs so people instantly have more maps
compared to them having to search for custom maps themselves[/QUOTE]

Agree with this. Popular homebrew maps + in-house maps should be put together into the occasional map pack that updates the base game.

(tokamak) #18

yet if there were community created maps would people begrudge paying say £1 for the map? 50p to the map maker and 50p to SD?

Yes. The obstacle is not the price, the obstacle is making the transaction, this is really important to keep in mind here because it sets the payers and the nonpayers apart.

(zenstar) #19

To add more to this: some people will be playing from places where they can’t make an online transaction.
Some people playing won’t have facilities to make an online transaction (no cc or paypal or whatnot).
And some people will be determined not to spend a cent on the game but will play it as long as they’re not forced to pay (or as long as they don’t perceive it to be pay to win or freemium).

(Laurens) #20

Hey guys, this is not a comment on IF it will happen, but the nature of Unreal Engine 3 makes it a bit more difficult to support this. When preparing a game for release, by default UE3 “cooks” all the content to discard unused stuff and optimize things. This “cooked” content is impossible to mod or build maps for afaik. If you’re familiar with UDK or UT3, then yes, those games do support it, but that did require the system to be changed to support this.
So what I’m trying to say is that supporting it will require a bit of effort to make this possible, and there are other considerations such as potential performance impact, increased disk size, etc…