Splash Damage - You better not do this!

(tokamak) #161

I was trying to put the RPS analogy into the discussion somewhere but had no idea how to formulate it. Thanks. Rock Paper and Scissors are equal in worth and strength, none of them is more powerful, but it’s the variation between them that decides the advantage. Darkangel already translated this to Rate of Fire, Power and Accuracy or something, three extremely specialised guns. Now having access to those three guns already gives you the ability to cover the widest range of situations. However, having exclusive access to hybrids, guns somewhere in between, gives you the ability to further tweak your tools, which is an advantage. The gun itself might not be stronger, but having access to it, increases the probability that you’ve got the right tools for the job, you’ve got a piece of the puzzle that fits better than the other ones.

I was referring to statistically unique (and, as I said, ‘balanced’) items, not mere cosmetic changes. Nobody is making an issue of cosmetics here. I had no intention of misrepresenting your position and don’t see that I did so.

Good, then I just misunderstood what you were saying.

For the sake of clarity, we’re discussing the instance of offering exclusive extra variation through means outside the game itself. So yeah, I agree, let’s assume the rest is balanced to keep the debate clean.

(DarkangelUK) #162

Quite a poor analogy considering scissors has a unique quality that rock and paper don’t have. The pistols on pre-order have nothing beyond what any of the stock guns can do… in fact this thread is full of poor analogy’s :S

(tokamak) #163

The analogy is accurate enough to describe the advantage of having more options.

(DarkangelUK) #164

It’s completely inaccurate as all have unique attributes that the others don’t. The scissors can cut paper, the rock can’t, the rock crushes scissors, the paper can’t, the paper covers rock, the scissors can’t. ALL guns have the same abilities with varying degree… no gun has a unique attribute that others don’t.

(tokamak) #165

That’s because rock paper scissors is the most simplified game one can think of. And apparently simple games are required to get the point across. A good analogy is one that can absractify the situation to it’s bare essence. A slightly more complex version has 5 choices.

Magic takes this concepts and subdivides the choices even further.

Here you can see how simple archetypes fan out into more detailed ones. The simplest version has 5 archetypes, the outer ring has 15 archetypes.

We can make this more basic and just use the conventional colour circle:

You can keep adding finer colour depth to this picture untill you’ve got an infinitely detailed chart of strengths and weaknesses.

Note that this circle is more than just the saturated colours. The further you venture inwards, the more mediocre your options become.

Now Brink is neither infinitely complex nor is it as basic as RPS. It’s floating somewhere in between and the circle probably isn’t completely round either (meaning that some choices are more available than others). But the point still stands, whether it’s infinitely complex or totally basic, having more choices gives you a better ability to make the right one.

Now you can think I’m a geek, or that I have OCD, which I might have indeed. But I’m just fascinated with game theory, be it in games or in real-life policies. You can make a complex game while still keeping it perfectly balanced, but not if you start making external factors (like pre-order bonusses) count. Even letting it influence it for one bit means that you’re not taking the integrity of the game serious as a developer. Seeing that happen just completely grinds my gears.

(Kinjal) #166

2-nd screen from magic the gathering? :slight_smile:

(DarkangelUK) #167

I have rock and paper and no scissors, and I need to cut someone elses paper, I can’t. If I have a gun and need to shoot someone, it doesn’t matter if I have a pre-order gun or a stock gun… I can still shoot because all guns can all do the same thing in varying measures. Senethros analogy presented a situation where someone is lacking a unique feature that the other person has… this isn’t the case with having a pre-order gun, because there is NOTHING the pre-order gun can do that the others can’t. With RPS, the scissors can do something unique that the rock and paper can’t, so it’s not accurate. The gun adds an extra varying degree to abilities already open to the rest giving an extra option to choose from, I’ll agree with that, but it does not add a UNIQUE ability only open to that gun.

(tokamak) #168

Unless there’s statswise a carbon-copy of another gun in the game, the gun will have unique properties, which means that there will be certain cases in the game where having and using that gun is the best thing to do. The pre-order guys will have the chance to make that right decision while the rest of players don’t.

Yes, it’s just there to illustrate how different properties can be assigned to different colours. As for the rest that circle makese no sense at all and can’t be used to let it further fan out like the real colour chart can.

(DarkangelUK) #169

There’s a difference between someone being able to fire a gun at 10RPM and someone else being able to fire a gun at 15RPM compared someone being able to fire a gun and someone that can’t.

Can you name the unique ability the pre-order gun can do that the stock can’t? It may have different stats, but no unique ability.

(tokamak) #170

It’s funny how you first criticise the RPS analogy for being too simple, and then after I demonstrated how this example can be detailed into infinity, you demand a simple example within a complex context.

Having any set of statistics unavailable anywhere else is the gun’s unique ability as it has it’s own set of uses, different from the sets of uses by other weapons.

(DarkangelUK) #171

No, it’s an ability with varying scale open to all weapons. The rock and paper can’t cut anything to any degree what so ever, only scissors can do that… what ability is only open to the pistols which no other gun can do to any degree what so ever?

(LyndonL) #172

Wow this discussion is awesome.

Splash Damage. Can you either
a) tell us if the preorder guns have different stats; or
b) lock this BS thread

(Thryd) #173

Taking this into context with the differing attributes in weapons, surely the gun that fires at 15RPM will have decreased accuracy and damage to the gun that fires at 10RPM? That is the general trend in all shooters past and present. Every gun has it’s pro’s but at the same time it has it’s cons. It’s just a case of picking your poison.
As for the discussion on whether the guns granted to those who pre-ordered Brink will be better than the average guns, all I can really say is that the producers will not overpower the guns due to the simple fact that if everyone who pre-orders has guns with devastating accuracy and damage, those who do not pre-order will have a cause to become frustrated with the game and thus have no desire to play. I very much doubt that this will be in Splash Damage or Bethesda’s best interests, so in my own opinion I feel that although they may grant weapons with different stats, they will still be balanced within the general gameplay or run the risk the loss of customers and bad reviews in that sector. I think that the possibility unique skins with be very high in contrast to the chance of differing statistics.

(tokamak) #174

The RPS have 3 varying scales because the gaming environment has 3 different settings, you can either meet a rock, a paper, or scissors, so you won’t need more than that. Brink is a much more varied setting so you need abilities with varying scales to meet that setting.

So you’re doing the same thing again, I’m sure it’s done in good faith and you simply misunderstand the logical flaw; you’re applying a level of simplicity to a setting that is detailed. If the gun has unique stats, then it has a unique position on that colour chart (which I am now starting to doubt you ever read in the first place, otherwise you wouldn’t be repeating the same argument like that), and therefore the unique ability to deal with a set of situations that no other gun has. There might be a gun that comes close to it, as yes, the’s a varying scale as you call it, but it won’t be as good at meeting the specifics needed to deal with that situation.

So let me illustrate it:

Here’s the weapon selection (black dots) of someone without exclusive sets. This is the range of specific situations he can counter

Here’s the weapon selection of someone with access to exclusive options (the white dots).

He is able to cover more situations better. The extra area covered by the white dots represents the advantage.

This is a situation where the exclusive weapon excels in a particular property that other guns can not.

Now this is not an optimal analogy in that exclusive guns might be more mediocre with more balanced stats than displayed above (closer to grey). The white dot might lie closer to the centre which means the exclusive weapons are more mediocre than the rest. But note that mediocrity is a specialism by itself, a player might want a mediocre weapon to fulfill general tasks, like healing or buffing players or just defending key classes in the team.

In any case, the more dots you have spread across this circle, the more applicable you can make your inventory and thus have an advantage.

(coolstory) #175

[QUOTE=.Chris.;244871]Are you for real?

Why should public play be any less balanced than competition?[/QUOTE]

Because there’s lot of randomness (random people, different mindset) in a pub. There might be new players messing around or people who don’t really want to play “seriously”. So balance wont really be a big issue for them.

I mean if you go into a pub for competition… you’re doing it wrong.

(DarkangelUK) #176

There’s no varying degree in a unique ability, that’s what makes it ‘unique’. I’m presented with a situation where I need to cut paper and I don’t have scissors. Under no circumstances can I cut this paper without scissors, no way no how, no colourfull chart or diagram is going to change that fact, without scissors I physically cannot complete the task of cutting paper… rock can’t do it, paper can’t do it… it’s not possible. Are you disagreeing with this?

Now present to me a situation where, under no circumstances, can a task be complete in Brink without the pre-order pistol? I don’t need a pretty picture, text will do please. My point being… Senethros RPS analogy is a load of crap.

(tokamak) #177

This just falls on deaf ears, I seriously doubt you read anything I posted. Either you’re incapable of abstract thinking or you just don’t want to.

Senethro’s analogy was aimed at demonstrating that more options give an advantage, not invincibility.

(light_sh4v0r) #178

Why would he do that, it’s not his point.
You however have no point, as the analogy suits his point just fine.

now gtfo, this is taking way too long :rolleyes:

(DarkangelUK) #179

And my point was aimed at demonstrating the Senethros analogy was so far removed from any conceivable situation in the game by fully removing a complete element that just doesn’t exist and is not happening with the addition of a pre-order pistol. There’s nothing to read, cos it’s garbage and twisted to fit your flimsy preconception. Unless you’re not reading anything i’m writing, which if you are, answer my previous question please.

(DarkangelUK) #180

[QUOTE=light_sh4v0r;244917]Why would he do that, it’s not his point.
You however have no point, as the analogy suits his point just fine.

now gtfo, this is taking way too long :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

If you don’t want to participate, then don’t participate… I think you need to take your own advice and gtfo.