You’re saying the clock is trivial, yet it could make or break a match if not executed properly and a team would fail if they never paid attention to it. Direction of attack, place of attack, location of execution all mattered depending on the timing. If you killed them all at the wrong time or it took longer than normal, do you decide to leave 2 men at the back to hold them off while the objective class goes to work? Do you all push forward and surround the objective class in case they flank from another route? Current method, all rush when ever you want and try and kill them all knowing that you’ve always got 15 seconds… and you say that’s more interesting? Again, severely differing views of what’s interesting.
Spawn Waves
tokamak
(tokamak)
#82
I see that clock as an external factor in the game. It’s a mechanic that keeps functioning in the same way regardless of the pace of the game.
If you’re issuing the rule that soccer players need to clap their hands above their heads every minute or face a red card if they don’t then you’re suddenly making the game a lot more difficult as only the most skilled teams will be able to work under such a burden. Yet at the same time you may start to wonder where the hell you’re taking the game.
The clock up till now has been a necessary evil that teams learned to work around with. Now the clock isn’t necessary any longer it suddenly feels like a very important part of the game is dropped. This simply isn’t the case you still need to time your attacks. You may even need to time your attacks more perfectly because there’s more to gain if you can kill the entire team really fast, there’s a reward there that previously wasnt there.
Direction of attack, place of attack, location of execution all mattered depending on the timing. If you killed them all at the wrong time
Not IN the wrong time. AT the wrong time. Right now it matters in what time you kill the defenders rather than at what time you kill them. It means that rather than that external source being relevant you suddenly start looking at cues within the game. It means that attackers may want to postpone a strike until they´re sure they have more certainty that they can net all the defenders. This means that they receive more leeway AT which point in time they do so, meaning that the situation matters more and they have far less leeway IN what time they manage to complete their assault and clean up all the defenders.
Maca
(Maca)
#83
From the very first match I thought that there was something oddly chaotic about the game, I wondered if it was the maps, the movement, the gunplay, I had a feeling that the spawns were odd but now I would really like to test with proper spawn times. It’s really counter-intuitive to try and team up with your team mates (to a lesser extent also in offense, because of the overly forgiving spawn waves). Because the maps have places where you can get shot from every direction almost right after you get out of spawn, like the whole way from first barrier to second in London Bridge, lone defenders often get in fights against multiple enemies. And it really feels like “we just have to lemming in and hope for the best, then we can maybe set up defense”
And just by looking it at a pub standpoint, there have been many places in many maps where the constant gripe with players has been “defense can’t be set up”, and I would believe that the current spawning system is one big reason. Maybe sometimes the attackers can advance quite a bit if the defense get wiped at long spawn, but setting up a new defense or do an aggressive counter attack would be much easier if the defense didn’t trickle back to life. Let’s say that hey, you just gotta wait for your team mates to spawn when on defense, don’t go in alone. I would argue that this would be very unfun and almost impossible to teach the players to do.
It’s also irritating for the attackers, because they can’t keep up with the enemy deaths, so enemies just seem to pop from random places. One could perhaps argue that this could be made into a new kind of high level playing, I’d just say it promotes random DM, especially in 8v8 pub
Apples
(Apples)
#84
As said by chris, attack kill all defenders, then 3 attackers go spawn camp (talking bout 4o4) while the remaining one do the obj, if the defenders spawn one by one, even at little interval, they are basicaly doomed.
This wont be much of a problem in 8o8 pub play me think, so getting both options for comp vs pub can be a right thing to do, learning spawnwaves is a thing you need to do to play comp properly anyway, so even if this is one change between comp and pub, it wont deter the pubnubz to play more comp IMO.
I think this is the right way to do the job on DB, get as much similarities you can between comp and pub to ensure an easy link between the two worlds, but give options for comp to be different in order to balance the things, not options everywhere indeed, but options for the things that are inherently different in comp compared to pub, such as spamfest avoidance and spawn waves, if the weapons are balanced from the start you wont need an ETpro or ETQWpro to tweak the main game, only some tactical restrictions will apply, this way the link will be easier between the two worlds as the core game wont change (movement, firefights), only the team organisation will, and THIS is a bingo IMO.
DarkangelUK
(DarkangelUK)
#85
No, the clock has always been part of the game and was never external… it had to be actively paid attention to and was key on how the match played out. You’re detracting it from the core element like this is something new that’s now causing issues, when it never was… you’re bending the way people perceive it to help your argument. There was nothing wrong with the clock as it was always part of the core gameplay… read that as CORE gameplay.
[QUOTE=tokamak;423746]
Not IN the wrong time. AT the wrong time. Right now it matters in what time you kill the defenders rather than at what time you kill them. It means that rather than that external source being relevant you suddenly start looking at cues within the game. It means that attackers may want to postpone a strike until they´re sure they have more certainty that they can net all the defenders. This means that they receive more leeway AT which point in time they do so, meaning that the situation matters more and they have far less leeway IN what time they manage to complete their assault and clean up all the defenders.[/QUOTE]
Replacing replacing replacing… and also limiting. Thanks for proving my point.
DarkangelUK
(DarkangelUK)
#88
I like when you reply like that, it always shows me that you don’t get it.
EDIT: Actually I knew that the moment you said the timer was trivial.
tokamak
(tokamak)
#89
It´s an artefact that´s being made redundant. You no longer need a timer because you KNOW that in exactly 15 seconds your victim is on it´s way back for revenger.
INF3RN0
(INF3RN0)
#91
[QUOTE=.Chris.;423718]It also doesn’t help if the attack get into a position in which they can spawn camp the defence, as the defense respawn in dribs and drabs it will make it way too easy for a few players to take down smaller number of staggered respawning enemies than a larger group of consistent respawning enemies.
Just feels like another solution to a problem that didn’t really exist, like SMART.[/QUOTE]
This is a very good point. In fact I find it to be one of the most relative arguments outside of the common view on the subject.
tokamak
(tokamak)
#93
The lines between spawn camping and blocking reinforcements become blurry though. I believe spawn camping should be addressed through different measures.
No it does not and frankly its a worthless poll because ´Keep it the way it is´ is an incredibly vague statement. People have no idea what they´re voting on.
amazinglarry
(amazinglarry)
#94
Except “The way it is” is explained in the thread… so, worthless? Nope.
You mean this explanation?
DarkangelUK
(DarkangelUK)
#96
Don’t worry, he always ignores everything that’s said and just repeats the same thing over and over. You’d be as well just letting it go because its futile discussing anything with him… dog with a bone comes to mind.
amazinglarry
(amazinglarry)
#97
sigh… as I said, explained in this thread…
[QUOTE=Smooth;423558]We’ve had this system since the beginning and I wondered how long it would take for this thread to pop up 
Here’s what we have:
[ul]
[li]Attackers will always spawn in waves, although if you’ve been incapped and ‘miss’ a wave you have the option to respawn instantly[/li][li]Defenders always have a fixed respawn time to wait which starts counting down when you are incapped[/li][/ul]
There are a few reasons for this, I’m not the most eloquent chap in the world but I’ll try to explain them:
Typically defenders will set up around an objective and have to be ‘broken’ by the attackers. If attackers trickled in one at a time they would easily be picked off so they must push together as a team, which is the reason for spawn waves. Defenders need to be constantly resupplying the ‘stockade’ with fresh meat so arriving in waves is less of a necessity.
Another reason is to prevent the “we just wiped out defenders but they all respawned instantly” (un)luck factor which is present when defenders have spawn waves. In our system if you do wipe the defenders you know they have to wait the the full time before they can return and it’s not luck that decides whether they come back in 1s or 15s.
Yes, we accept that there is a meta-tactic of figuring out the spawn wave of the defending team and timing a push to kill them when the timer reaches maximum length, however this is not something you will often see outside of high-level clan play and even then it involves the attacking team essentially waiting around for an arbitrary timer to tick over, which isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing.
We love reading discussions about this stuff and hopefully my posts makes sense to you guys.[/QUOTE]
Dragonji
(Dragonji)
#99
This whole discussion with tokamak is just hilarious.
As I understood he thinks all the people who voted in this poll are idiots.
tokamak
(tokamak)
#100
I don´t think they’re idiots, I think they’ve been uninformed. If I would look at the poll and the first page or so I would’ve voted spawn waves as well.
Come on, this is a fascinating subject and there’s a lot more to it than we’ve been plucking at so far. This standard reflex to anything new really isn’t helping. As far as I’m aware DB is the first game to try this. This is the stuff I expect from SD. They already pioneerd dynamic spawn times as well. We need more of tools like this to steer matches in the most epic confrontations possible.