Spawn Waves

(Ashog) #61

Sorry but I am not buying the current spawn idea.

On a competitive 5x5 scale this means to me that:

It is very possible that certain objectives will be accomplished only by luck on attackers side - say, while planting at the wall you need ALL enemies to be killed at some point to be able to plant. The only chance to get this under current system is when attackers manage to kill all defenders almost simultaneously and that also combined with the attacking engie surviving this onslaught. Because if the defenders are dying one by one with an interval of 3-4 seconds, you will always have someone on defense because the first killed ones will be constantly returning.In theory the indivisual returning defenders will only need to throw a grenade one by one to gib the engineer near the plant area, in order to defend the objective, tuning it into a grenade train. This is of course an extreme, almost absurd example but it is possible.

On the other hand, the real fighting turns in reality from 5x5 into constant 5x6 or 5x7 because in most cases it takes time to kill all the defense. And while you team takes time to do it, the defense gets constantly resupplied. I don’t see how that can be good. The tactic “kill them all to do the obj” loses all sense in the current layout. For the pub it will probably not matter much, but for SW… nein!

Also RuneForce got that thing well put:

One thing I find particular annoying on the defense: if you die and get revived shortly before the timer reaches respawn and then die again shortly afterwards, you have to wait the full time again. I would like to see that time shortened (if you got revived X seconds ago and die again.)

(DarkangelUK) #62

[QUOTE=tokamak;423687]That’s because merely stating your experience is not a way to move the dialogue any further. I’m presenting the way I think and why I think it and you’re free to take any argument or premise apart and see if the whole thing still stands. However simply saying ‘that’s not my experience’ or ‘you don’t have enough experience’ really is meaningless.

You have next to no experience with the current system anyway so talking about experience in this context is especially absurd.[/QUOTE]

Dude, I’m not helping you derail another thread… tbh I’m surprised it lasted this without an infamous tokajak.

(tokamak) #63

Sigh, I shouldn’t have taken that bait.

This is of course an extreme, almost absurd example but it is possible.

Yes but you’re hitting at the point here. The onus suddenly is on the attackers not just to kill the defenders but also make sure they’re killed in one sweep. I think that’s a fun element in the game. At least heaps more fun than balancing everything around a timer. I think this currently hasn’t played a big role because until now the attackers have simply always treated the defenders like they spawn in waves.

(Ashog) #64

Well, how viable is this if teams are well balanced? This just calls for holds and stalemates. We need more 5x5 to test this.

(Smooth) #65

That’s a bingo!

(Ashog) #66

Gief me a kickobana stick so I can anytime kick people11-16 or alternatively organize a SW server with playerlimit 10.

Bingo again? :stuck_out_tongue:

(Smooth) #67

The private SW servers are up there, I believe the password can be found if you know where to look :stuck_out_tongue:

(H0RSE) #68

It can win a team a match as well…

(tokamak) #69

The current 15 seconds aren´t set in stone. If it´s not balanced then you can start tweaking the spawns or make them dynamic.

(Runeforce) #70

You are doing it WRONG! :slight_smile: (on purpose, I suppose.)

//youtu.be/dxbb5RcqpZM

(Rex) #71

[QUOTE=Smooth;423558]We’ve had this system since the beginning and I wondered how long it would take for this thread to pop up :slight_smile:

Here’s what we have:

[ul]
[li]Attackers will always spawn in waves, although if you’ve been incapped and ‘miss’ a wave you have the option to respawn instantly
[/li][/ul]

[/QUOTE]

That is one of the problems I got with this system. You don’t get punished when you miss a spawn wave. You should make a decision whether you wait for a medic or you spawn this or the next wave.
I really don’t like to see this getting removed as time based play is one of the biggest skillful factors in the game.

At the moment, without knowing the times it all feels lucky. I can’t see much controlling in it and the games feel like more like a mess.
Like it has been already said here, this won’t work in competitve matches.

One the one hand you are right and a new game needs also always needs some new aspects of course, but I do see it different. What you did in the past was not only excellent, but worked great for many years as well.
The time based play with its spawn waves and respawn timer is one of the main features of your games. That’s one point why it’s so special, there are no other games where all this time control is such important as in SD games.
You shouldn’t change the elementary aspects of the game for the sake of your old fans.

Sorry, but that’s not true. To play really good you should always try to base all your tactics on time.
Let me give you an example: Sewer 3rd obj 6on6.
If you kill all defenders in let’s say 3secs at a respawn time of 3. You haven’t won that much, because they will return too fast and you will need to defend once again. But if you manage to kill them on 29secs it’s gg, because they won’t come back for a retake. It’s not so important to kill them as fast as you can, than killing them on full.

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #72

I voted waves but with the current spawn timer configurations for maps I don’t think it matters all that much and I really hope that it’s just because the spawn timers aren’t refined yet. One of the major things that I don’t like about DB’s core play is that spawning feels a lot more like a lemming rush than the average to best maps in previous SD titles. In general, the maps currently don’t have good spawn wave pacing and to me it’s more like DM, just always go-go-go. I’ve thought a lot about this but chalked it up to:
1)short placeholder spawn times
2)smaller maps (except for maybe Brink although movement was MUCH slower too)
3)more linear maps (except for maybe Brink)

DB currently suffers from a spawn trickle effect which isn’t good for the gametype. The spawn waves definitely artificially help group reinforcements together. I see the dev’s points. I guess I would like to see optimal spawn timers further sussed out.

I guess my questions are these for Anti and Smooth. Spawn waves are crucial for offense to generate pushes to break down the defense. Trickle offense doesn’t work. So what about the converse? The offense rolls over the defense at one point and the defense trickle spawns as they die, each with X second delays. Typically the offense pushes up as fast as they can. Does the defense ever get a chance to get reset on the next objective in these small maps or are they cut down one at a time? What does the data tell you?

(tokamak) #73

Yes so rather than killing them as fast possible you only have to kill them within a rather forgiveable window of time. I never liked some weird clock ticking in the corner of the screen dictating the pace of the game and I’m glad there’s a way out of that now. The only thing that bothers me is that I haven’t thought of this myself in the years I’ve played these games.

(.Chris.) #74

It also doesn’t help if the attack get into a position in which they can spawn camp the defence, as the defense respawn in dribs and drabs it will make it way too easy for a few players to take down smaller number of staggered respawning enemies than a larger group of consistent respawning enemies.

Just feels like another solution to a problem that didn’t really exist, like SMART.

(tokamak) #75

True though I don’t think spawn-camping is an issue that should have a bearing on spawn timers.

(amazinglarry) #76

My only beef with the system is how it feels inconsistent. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out what was going on with spawn timers, until this discussion was brought up, and it was frustrating to me not knowing why sometimes I always had a 14 second wait, and other times I would have 2 ‘auto spawns’ in a row.

I understand the logic behind it, but I think it may be just as confusing for pub players, not having a sense of ‘when’ they’ll be able to spawn (unless they know the system, of course).

(iwound) #77

Are the two different spawn systems not a core imbalance. wave against individuals.

if i was a merc I’d be talking to my union rep just about now.

(DarkangelUK) #78

Tactics is what it’s called. I can see the point if the static 15 sec spawns were adding a new dimension on top of the current option but it doesn’t, it replaces one for the other, it removes one tactic and replaces it with another. As you said, you’d need to kill them all at a certain point, where as now all you need to do is just kill them all at any point = tactic removed.

(tokamak) #79

You’re disingenuously oversimplifying it. You know very well that these ‘points’ are no longer equal. Back then there was a window dedicated by that clock, it didn’t matter how fast you killed them as long as you stayed within that window. Right now the clock is gone and what matters is how fast you can kill them in one go, every second shorter is better.

And seriously, what a trivial skill is it to be able to base your attacks on some clock. That clock that just keeps ticking regardless of what’s going on in the battlefield itself. Right now, without a clock you suddenly have to be able to base your attacks on the situation. There’s a lot more factors involved.

(Rex) #80

LOL. What you call “trivial skill” is one thing most clans had to struggle with. Just take a look at some beginner clans and look at their time management. It’s not as easy as you might think. Also with the clock you had to adapt your attacks on the situations.