Spawn Waves

(DarkangelUK) #41

Would you say that was the case with RtCW, ET or ETQW? The way I see it, if they never suffered from this then that suggests it’s not the spawns that are causing the defensive bias but something else entirely. Sure it’s all subjective and personal preference, but the randomness of defense just isn’t fun. It feels messy and incoherent, and now I know how the spawns are on defense, I can finally put my finger on why I don’t like playing defense in DB.

I’d also add that if you saw a lot of occasions where the defense were getting a lucky spawn wave and countering the attackers on time, then this just strengthens what a lot of us have been saying for quite a while… the spawn times are too short!

(maxxxxlol) #42

I always find it annoying spawning by myself on defence. Also ruins any chance of /killing to change class quickly.

(j4b) #43

i dont care in the current type of objective mode. maybe its fine as it is.
But later on in SW specialy competition mode we should get back to the old type of spawnwaves.

spawnwaves are realy needed to regroup and get togehter to the objectives.

(Anti) #44

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;423641]Would you say that was the case with RtCW, ET or ETQW? The way I see it, if they never suffered from this then that suggests it’s not the spawns that are causing the defensive bias but something else entirely. Sure it’s all subjective and personal preference, but the randomness of defense just isn’t fun. It feels messy and incoherent, and now I know how the spawns are on defense, I can finally put my finger on why I don’t like playing defense in DB.

I’d also add that if you saw a lot of occasions where the defense were getting a lucky spawn wave and countering the attackers on time, then this just strengthens what a lot of us have been saying for quite a while… the spawn times are too short![/QUOTE]

These are good points. You’re right, we didn’t always see this in previous games, but it did exist on some specific maps. Obviously it could be a map issue, as well as many other contributing factors as you stated, but we still need to try out solutions to these issues when we find them. Always going with ‘what we did in the past’ is not a good way to make good games.

As with all elements of the game right now, very little is final :slight_smile:

(iwound) #45

in this thread we post in waves and Anti is on a fixed post time. he hasnt a chance.:cool:

(tokamak) #46

I think they did suffer from this but we always just accepted it for what it was. When I look back I feel that too often the match had been at the mercy of the (lack of) synchronisity between the waves of both teams. You see an entire defense crew rush in a few seconds short OR just in time and in either situation it was down to the timer and not their combined effort as a team.

When the defense has individual spawn times however, you can’t say this is down to luck. Ever. Suddenly it matters how fast you kill the defense because if you don’t they come trickling back again. Clearing out the objective as fast as possible and keeping your ‘wave’ alive and functional is suddenly a lot more important.

These are good points. You’re right, we didn’t always see this in previous games, but it did exist on some specific maps.

Well certainly not in the current form. ETQW had the respawn rates increase on the defenders if they held an objective for too long but that’s different. Though of course there’s nothing stopping DB from having some dynamic rates for both the waves and the individual timers as well.

(DarkangelUK) #47

[QUOTE=j4b;423646]i dont care in the current type of objective mode. maybe its fine as it is.
But later on in SW specialy competition mode we should get back to the old type of spawnwaves.

spawnwaves are realy needed to regroup and get togehter to the objectives.[/QUOTE]

Well this is also my fear, that the comp scene just aren’t gonna go for it, and I agree that it should be spawn waves in SW. We’ve had discussions before about keeping the vanilla game as close to the comp scene as possible so’s to make the transition feel natural for those that want to, but if the comp scene reject the static timers then the choice seems to go against the uniformed mantra set out.

(Apples) #48


Ohhhh yeahhhhh

(DarkangelUK) #49

[QUOTE=tokamak;423654]I think they did suffer from this but we always just accepted it for what it was. When I look back I feel that too often the match had been at the mercy of the (lack of) synchronisity between the waves of both teams. You see an entire defense crew rush in a few seconds short OR just in time and in either situation it was down to the timer and not their combined effort as a team.

When the defense has individual spawn times however, you can’t say this is down to luck. Ever. Suddenly it matters how fast you kill the defense because if you don’t they come trickling back again. Clearing out the objective as fast as possible and keeping your ‘wave’ alive and functional is suddenly a lot more important.

Well certainly not in the current form. ETQW had the respawn rates increase on the defenders if they held an objective for too long but that’s different. Though of course there’s nothing stopping DB from having some dynamic rates for both the waves and the individual timers as well.[/QUOTE]

You need to watch some WarWitchTV on Sundays, I clanned quite a lot back in the day for RtCW, and accepting it was never the feeling back then. I’d say that having someone that could upset a offensive rush spawn randomly at the right time to counter a push and kill the doc carrier, that’s just as much luck as anything else. Also some team play and the timer could determine the enemies spawn time and you could organize plays around it… that’s just completely removed from the equation now. Trust me, clans knew when the enemy was going to spawn, there was no luck about it… just risks that never paid off.

(Anti) #50

As Apples and j4b said, there is more room to make waves for both teams, with longer spawn times, exist in Stopwatch. In some modes though, especially Objective, we have to ensure there are some elements that help make ‘public’ play feel reasonable.

(tokamak) #51

Yeah if you’re attacking that is. Attackers don’t need to permanently hold a certain location.

(Dthy) #52

[QUOTE=Apples;423660]

Ohhhh yeahhhhh[/QUOTE]

We can have both?! What is this?! I Just, gawd, I need to lie down…

(tokamak) #53

You’re ignoring what you get in return. Basing the tactics on a timer is far less interesting than basing the tactics on how fast you kill the defenders in one sweep.

(DarkangelUK) #54

Sorry dude, but you really didn’t play any comp games. Forward spawns had to be held, routes back to capture/transmit points had to be kept secure, flanking routes to keep the objective class safe had to be covered. Do you think all these games are just attackers rush rush rush to a single point? That’s just chaotic, unorganized pub play.

Says who, you? Based on what?

(Kendle) #55

Agree with j4b and DA, the comp scene are not going to accept staggered defence respawns, whatever reasoning you might come up with for it, because it just doesn’t make sense in a competitive stopwatch match. It’s not that we’ve all grown used to it cos that’s what happened in the past, it was like that in the past for a reason.

For example, under the RTCW / ET system attack can put all the defence in spawn knowing they’ve got ‘X’ seconds before 5 (or 6) defenders reappear to engage them. Under the DB system they’ll never know exactly how many defenders are going to return, or when. This adds a defensive bias to the game on top of whatever offense / defence bias the map inherently has. You’d never be able to balance the map properly because the number of defenders that return to the front line, and the time intervals between them, are, and always will be, variable.

The comp scene will reject this out of hand. A map that may or may not be suitable for stopwatch is a map that is NOT suitable for stopwatch.

(tokamak) #56

PERMANENTLY is a keyword here. Attackers have leeway in when and how they attack, defenders only need to slip once and it’s over.

And I’m saying that based on basic deduction. The rate at which you kill defenders determines the rate at which they respawn. In previous titles you only had to kill them within one respawn wave for the same effect. Right now there’s no such window and the speed at which you kill the enemies means how much space you’re going to get at the objective before the defenders you killed first are coming back to mess you up and delay things enough for the rest to form up. This in turn also means that a defender making a last stand and delaying the attackers for a few more seconds can make a much more consistent impact than back when his team mates spawned in waves, which would again, be much more about luck.

(DarkangelUK) #57

I’ll jump in before the inevitable tokajak, it’s not a convincing argument and it won’t fly for comp… end of. No point dragging this out from your theories.

(tokamak) #58

You’re pretending like this is something that has been discussed ad nauseum while in fact this is the first time in the history of these forums this topic is addressed. What a shame.

(DarkangelUK) #59

I’m basing this on past discussions with yourself where everything you add is always based on theory, you interpreting your value ‘fun’ or ‘interesting’ as the way things should be, and because you never have any experience on these subjects and have to purely rely on your own warped style of deduction.

And nothing pisses me off more than someone using the argument ‘that’s just what you’re used to so that’s why you want it’.

(tokamak) #60

That’s because merely stating your experience is not a way to move the dialogue any further. I’m presenting the way I think and why I think it and you’re free to take any argument or premise apart and see if the whole thing still stands. However simply saying ‘that’s not my experience’ or ‘you don’t have enough experience’ really is meaningless.

You have next to no experience with the current system anyway so talking about experience in this context is especially absurd.