Spawn Waves

[Violator]

Apparently defense has had a fixed timer the whole time, while offense spawns in waves. I still would like a defensive wave anyway.

That makes sense now, I was wondering why on some games it was always 12 secs and others random. I vote for waves for all teams, its seems like an artificial cripple for defense to deny them waves and makes it hard to co-ordinate. Spawn times are so short now anyway its probably not making much difference. Also not having a spawn timer is a real issue for me.

[INF3RN0]

The problem with spawn waves it can lose a team a match. If are a quite a few players taken out the game at once and you get caught in a 20+ second spawn wave it can completely lose you a game when in fact you were likely win. This happens a lot in ETQW.

It also teaches you to take your actions seriously and strongly consider the consequences of mistakes as a team. Spawn waves always had people making sure they stuck around medics to avoid long spawns, and really facilitated more player awareness of the importance of teamwork in general. DB spawn times only promote tdm style aggression and not a lot of care towards dying.

[iwound]

… its seems like an artificial cripple for defense to deny them waves and makes it hard to co-ordinate…

that’s their back-story, they are a lazy, undisciplined bunch. they just turn up when they feel like it.

with waves i feel there are more varied type of games.
too often im looking for team-mates when i should be along side them.
the fights when its several from both sides in an area fighting over something its amazing.
but thats not happening all that often.

DB spawn times only promote tdm style aggression and not a lot of care towards dying.

well said.

[Smooth]

We’ve had this system since the beginning and I wondered how long it would take for this thread to pop up

Here’s what we have:

[ul]
[li]Attackers will always spawn in waves, although if you’ve been incapped and ‘miss’ a wave you have the option to respawn instantly[/li][li]Defenders always have a fixed respawn time to wait which starts counting down when you are incapped[/li][/ul]
There are a few reasons for this, I’m not the most eloquent chap in the world but I’ll try to explain them:

Typically defenders will set up around an objective and have to be ‘broken’ by the attackers. If attackers trickled in one at a time they would easily be picked off so they must push together as a team, which is the reason for spawn waves. Defenders need to be constantly resupplying the ‘stockade’ with fresh meat so arriving in waves is less of a necessity.

Another reason is to prevent the “we just wiped out defenders but they all respawned instantly” (un)luck factor which is present when defenders have spawn waves. In our system if you do wipe the defenders you know they have to wait the the full time before they can return and it’s not luck that decides whether they come back in 1s or 15s.

Yes, we accept that there is a meta-tactic of figuring out the spawn wave of the defending team and timing a push to kill them when the timer reaches maximum length, however this is not something you will often see outside of high-level clan play and even then it involves the attacking team essentially waiting around for an arbitrary timer to tick over, which isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing.

We love reading discussions about this stuff and hopefully my posts makes sense to you guys.

[tokamak]

Yes that’s clear. I was about to write something like that before I practically fell asleep on my keyboard.

If both teams spawn in waves then chance becomes a bigger factor. Defenders will be able to hold of attackers as long as their waves coincide. However, you only have to have one wrong wave for the objective to be taken. Individual timers cushion that probability.

[Scrupus]

Thanks for that explanation Smooth, it’s been a bit confusing but must admit that you have a pretty good idea behind the current system - I like it.

I think it will work better when players starts to understand how it works, and also realize how important it is to either selfkill or press SPACE immediately when the timer runs out - quite often I find myself watching the gameplay when incapped, and forget to respawn so I either miss the attack wave, or loose precious seconds for the defence. Will pay more attention to it from now on

[tokamak]

Good point Scupus. Some mechanics should remain behind the scenes (like ETQW’s dynamic spawn timers) but the reason why this hasn’t been picked up yet by people is that it is really hard to notice. Both teams identical and most of the time you’re not really in the role of a defender or an attacker, and if you’re like me you also tend to switch teams whenever you think it’s necessary. When you keep on doing that your mind isn’t picking up on the pattern.

Why is this important? As long as players don’t understand this difference they will treat both teams in the same way. If that connection isn’t made they will believe that half the time the attackers somehow spawn in waves and half the time the defenders have the trickle effect. This means that they’re not able to base their tactics on the certainty of having either waves or a trickle.

It becomes fuzzy. So it would be worth thinking about how to make this mechanic more clear. A simple tip in the loading screen or whatever would already do a great job.

[iwound]

unfortunately i think it causes issues with the objectives. ie 1st London Bridge barrier, data cores and 3rd barrier. where its just a walkover by attack.
the drip feed seems to be like a response to echo to spread the fighting maybe.
i like the luck factor. if as a defence we spawn and save the day then yay its great.
so if attack succesfully kill a defence and are about to complete an objective, in DB its set in stone that IS what will happen.
with a wave theres an alternative, a chance a more varied game. it could be a walk-over or a solid defence.

its seems this way it feels like trying to fix a problem that doesnt exist an over control of players.

OK Smooth we have your tapir, if we dont get a full spawn wave test. it gets deported back to Peru. if i can get it a ticket.
C’mon give it a go.

[Kendle]

Yes, we accept that there is a meta-tactic of figuring out the spawn wave of the defending team and timing a push to kill them when the timer reaches maximum length, however this is not something you will often see outside of high-level clan play and even then it involves the attacking team essentially waiting around for an arbitrary timer to tick over, which isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing.

I don’t know about the “isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing” part, I’d guess most (educated) viewers would appreciate good tactics being employed by either team, but you’re right in that this probably doesn’t matter so much outside clan play (I wouldn’t say high level, I’d say any level).

However it DOES matter for clan play, so there needs to be some game mode option or server-side switch that enables spawn wave for the defending team in a match environment.

[Smooth]

unfortunately i think it causes issues with the objectives. ie 1st London Bridge barrier, data cores and 3rd barrier. where its just a walkover by attack.

I feel this is something that should be solved on a per-objective basis by tweaking the level and timers, rather than reworking a core global system.

Having said that nothing is set in stone

OK Smooth we have your tapir, if we don’t get a full spawn wave test. it gets deported back to Peru

[stealth6]

As iwound said with the current system you can get the reverse effect that attack secure a room (think the chapel datacores or LB datacores) and the defense trickle in…

apart from those moments it sounds alright, but I think the time should be increased so the attackers waves are bigger and possibly remove the “Press space to spawn now” Since this can still cause a trickle to happen on attackers.

It should be forced waves.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Smooth;423558]

Typically defenders will set up around an objective and have to be ‘broken’ by the attackers. If attackers trickled in one at a time they would easily be picked off so they must push together as a team, which is the reason for spawn waves. Defenders need to be constantly resupplying the ‘stockade’ with fresh meat so arriving in waves is less of a necessity.

Another reason is to prevent the “we just wiped out defenders but they all respawned instantly” (un)luck factor which is present when defenders have spawn waves. In our system if you do wipe the defenders you know they have to wait the the full time before they can return and it’s not luck that decides whether they come back in 1s or 15s.

Yes, we accept that there is a meta-tactic of figuring out the spawn wave of the defending team and timing a push to kill them when the timer reaches maximum length, however this is not something you will often see outside of high-level clan play and even then it involves the attacking team essentially waiting around for an arbitrary timer to tick over, which isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing.

We love reading discussions about this stuff and hopefully my posts makes sense to you guys.[/QUOTE]

I completely understand the thought process, but I feel like some things were overlooked. A lot of features we were used to are missing and I keep hearing “mostly just used in high level clan play” as some what dismissing their value. In ETQW pub as just an example, even the lowest pub scrub was aware of the potential of falling into that 20s spawn wave and it had a huge influence on player attitudes. A stationary defense however needs to be completely avoided if possible, because it was never the case in the past games. This was mostly due to side objectives and forward spawns, which prevented people from just choosing to sit around and camp the objective. In most of my experiences pub/comp players coordinated aggressively on new spawn waves, ex. try to retake a forward spawn/rebuild side objs based on the spawn timer, and then played it cautious when such behavior would be too risky. This of course was much more refined by comp players/teams, but it was most definitely utilized by everyone. There’s a lot of things like this that added a lot of depth to the game play and kept things from becoming too repetitive. Avoiding repetition was one of the big successes of ETQW.

[Scrupus]

The spawn luck factor was fun in some cases, but the unluck factor really sucked in others so I’m not sure if I will miss it. But then I’m mostly pub player, comp players might feel it differently.

But notice that there is a really cool advantage (IMHO) with the current system, that we didn’t have before (I think): If you’re incapped and not quite sure if an approaching medic will be available to revive you or not, you don’t have to take any selfkill decision before the current spawn wave expires - if the medic dies (or someone gibs you) you can still spawn , and don’t have to wait for next wave. This could often be a hard dilemma in ET and QW - selfkill for a safe respawn (and possibly annoy the approaching medic), or pray for a revive before you’re gibbed.

But yeah, there are some drawbacks too. Still, would be nice to see how it turns out now when players are more aware of it.

[Anti]

Yea, just to be clear as Inferno’s initial post was a bit misleading. The mechanics for spawns, since the starter of alpha, have always been the same: The attackers will join the next timed spawn wave for their team, allowing them to be synced. The defender is forced to his own re-spawn time when he dies, which is always fixed (currently 15 seconds).

With this system, the attackers objective is still the same, kill enough of the defenders in a short space of time when you wave attacks that you manage to force a window of opportunity to get the objective done. You still need that coordinated attack to create the window.

If you only kill half of them in the ‘short’ time then those guys who died will be coming back not long after you kill their existing team mates. This was equally the case in the old wave system, if you didn’t kill all the enemy prior to the next wave spawning you’d have to fight X guys only to see Y more other guys showing up.

Now, I do agree there might be issues with the actual times themselves, and there is a lack of a spawn wave timer for the attackers, but I’m yet to see reasoning as to why this system is worse.

[Maca]

I hold the belief that having no fixed spawn waves and timers causes people to not being able to co-operate as efficiently, and the gameplay becoming much more scattered. Even if it brings a little luck in the game, spawning together with most of your team and doing a big rush to attack/defend is where the fun is at.

[DarkangelUK]

I’m not really seeing why the system is better either. This whole trickling towards a group of enemies seems a bit counter productive, as you say, clan play would have the players communicate and organize a group strike which wouldn’t happen on pubs… how ever, the spawn waves for D meant that the pub players were placed in an organised wave without the need for comms to begin with.

[iwound]

but I’m yet to see reasoning as to why this system is worse.

we have just given you loads. teamwork, fun & variety. teamwork on its own should do it. as it is it doesnt promote teamwork which i thought was a main goal of the game.

lets just have a ickle little test.

[tokamak]

A stationary defense however needs to be completely avoided if possible, because it was never the case in the past games.

Defense is stationary relative to the attackers. Means they can still move around, but they’re only able to move around less. There’s only one objective to defend while there are multiple attack routes. That’s a relevant difference when it comes to spawn waves.

[Runeforce]

One thing I find particular annoying on the defense: if you die and get revived shortly before the timer reaches respawn and then die again shortly afterwards, you have to wait the full time again. I would like to see that time shortened (if you got revived X seconds ago and die again.)

[Anti]

[QUOTE=iwound;423599]we have just given you loads. teamwork, fun & variety. teamwork on its own should do it. as it is it doesnt promote teamwork which i thought was a main goal of the game.

lets just have a ickle little test.[/QUOTE]

Those aren’t reasons really, they’re things that people want that in not specific to this system. Individual spawns give more variety than spawn waves. Some players would claim instant re-spawn is more fun, that comes down to what you define as fun. The teamwork argument is the one that does hold most sway though, I can give you that.

What we were finding is with the old defensive waves there were a lot of occasions where, through no skill on the defending team’s part, or lack of skill on the attackers, large waves of defenders were dieing and then getting lucky and catching the new spawn wave a few seconds later. It made games much more defense biased than they should have been.

Having fixed defensive spawns ensured the average re-spawn times, rather than it fluctuating wildly.