Spawn times

[prophett]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;500440]I actually COMPLETELY agree with you that this would solve the problem.
I also believe that doing so is going to turn the casual public game into a complete mess. [/QUOTE]

How? It didn’t ruin pubs in rtcw, et, or qw.

Again, I have no doubts that this would fix the high level play. I also feel it will mess up public play.

how?

[shaftz0r]

every argument you’ve pointed to comes back to “this is a beta and we’ve had the entire conversation 5 times already” also as ive previously stated, i dont personally have any issue trying something new out that would be a happy medium between personal spawn times and set spawn waves, IN A PUB. for comp, set spawn times are the only logical solution for a high tiered game

as far as the “personal attacks” go, its just empirical evidence of where your perspective is coming from. you’ve made like 10 new threads in the past month, and have posted 350+ times in that span. go back and look at older threads instead of mucking up the forum with new ones. we’re all well aware that you’re trying to make money off of this game by putting it all over youtube and by casting (lol) but at least have a back round that you can pull thoughtful opinions out of before you go ham with 45 min videos and 15 paragraph threads or at the very least, give new ideas, not ones we’ve been through many times previous.

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=prophett;500441]How? It didn’t ruin pubs in rtcw, et, or qw.

how?[/QUOTE]

I actually just edited my previous post with more information.

However… Let’s look at the hows and whys.

Since RTCW, ET and QW we have seen a HUGE increase in the numbers playing games on the PC. We have also seen a much larger number of games hit the market and that trend is still speeding up. F2P games are becoming over saturated and peoples tastes change when it comes to what/how they play. The constant “dumbing down” of games over the past 10 years has made video games more accessible to everyone.

With all this in mind I do not believe that the vast majority of casual/public players will ever pay attention or take the time to learn/understand the wave spawn system. So lengthening the spawn timer when people do not pay attention to the spawn timer actually increases the amount of “luck” present in public play. This is due to the fact that getting kills at ## seconds is better then getting kills at ## seconds and if you do not pay attention to these numbers being killed at a bad time can be considered unlucky and getting kills at a good time could be considered lucky. Also, removing the player from the game for long periods of time will increase frustrations and change play styles (this could actually be a positive on defence) making them more fearful of death in the game. This would likely cause attackers playing to safely because games over the past 10 years have taught us that K/D means everything. This could have the reverse effect and actually cause attackers to be less likely to commit to an objective push (in public play).

I feel better management of spawns could actually have players spending LESS time dead while still giving the attackers a tactical advantage that could be “used” in competitive much like the current system. The current issue with the public game is not the maximum time someone can spend dead… Its the fact that people are not all dead at the same time and there is a lucky factor that can dictate if you just so happened to kill someone at the right or wrong time. Also, having players dead at the same time however elevates split attacker waves in public and also clears objectives for defenders.

AGAIN, I have no issue with comp play using the current system at all… Its actually Splash Damage that is pushing for this one game for both idea. (and I agree that they should)

[prophett]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;500448]I actually just edited my previous post with more information.

However… Let’s look at the hows and whys.

Since RTCW, ET and QW we have seen a HUGE increase in the numbers playing games on the PC. We have also seen a much larger number of games hit the market and that trend is still speeding up. F2P games are becoming over saturated and peoples tastes change when it comes to what/how they play. The constant “dumbing down” of games over the past 10 years has made video games more accessible to everyone.

With all this in mind I do not believe that the vast majority of casual/public players will ever pay attention or take the time to learn/understand the wave spawn system. So lengthening the spawn timer when people do not pay attention to the spawn timer actually increases the amount of “luck” present in public play. This is due to the fact that getting kills at ## seconds is better then getting kills at ## seconds and if you do not pay attention to these numbers being killed at a bad time can be considered unlucky and getting kills at a good time could be considered lucky. Also, removing the player from the game for long periods of time will increase frustrations and change play styles (this could actually be a positive on defence) making them more fearful of death in the game. This would likely cause attackers playing to safely because games over the past 10 years have taught us that K/D means everything. This could have the reverse effect and actually cause attackers to be less likely to commit to an objective push (in public play).

I feel better management of spawns could actually have players spending LESS time dead while still giving the attackers a tactical advantage that could be “used” in competitive much like the current system. The current issue with the public game is not the maximum time someone can spend dead… Its the fact that people are not all dead at the same time and there is a lucky factor that can dictate if you just so happened to kill someone at the right or wrong time. Also, having players dead at the same time however elevates split attacker waves in public and also clears objectives for defenders.

AGAIN, I have no issue with comp play using the current system at all… Its actually Splash Damage that is pushing for this one game for both idea. (and I agree that they should)[/QUOTE]

Gotcha - players nowadays are stupid and cannot comprehend a simple timer. I do not agree with any of that.

If it’s hard to understand then they need to be educated.

Make an in game tutorial describing stopwatch and the importance of keeping an eye on your timer.

Boom - problem solver.

Legitimate Question (not trying to be insulting) - How long have you been gaming? It’s clear you do not understand the important functions of the /kill aspect in stopwatch so you might have a point about newer gamers finding the game complicated…

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=prophett;500452]Gotcha - players nowadays are stupid and cannot comprehend a simple timer. I do not agree with any of that.

If it’s hard to understand then they need to be educated.

Make an in game tutorial describing stopwatch and the importance of keeping an eye on your timer.

Boom - problem solver.

Legitimate Question (not trying to be insulting) - How long have you been gaming? It’s clear you do not understand the important functions of the /kill aspect in stopwatch so you might have a point about newer gamers finding the game complicated…[/QUOTE]

I have only been gaming for around 5 years but I really have played a lot of Quake and other older games so I do understand the importance of timing.
However, I have not actually mentioned (or at least seriously mentioned) any strategy revolving around the self kill so I would love to know where you think I have my wires crossed on that?

As far as I am aware the self kill can be used in situations like…
Self killing right after wiping out the enemy team and putting them on a long spawn timer when you hopfully have less then 3 seconds left giving you full ammo and hp again. Also, changing classes after objectives. Even doing some damage and choosing if you should self kill at the end of a wave to be back up to full strength.

If I am wrong fair enough

[rline]

He’s not an ET player, so I’m not surprised. I’d like to see a well written post comparing all of the different spawn systems in obj based games before really taking sides here. Of course everyone reverts back to what they know, but I’m sure a reasonable compromise isn’t implausible.

Who cares if I’m an ET player or not? I’ve never played an SD game competitively. Never played RTCW, just the MP Test on mp_beach. I pubbed ET for about a year. I chose to play TF2 over ETQW because I really didn’t like the id tech 4 engine and thought that TF2 would have a bigger following. Played Brink for about 50 hours and then quit like everyone else. Besides that, I’ve played the following games competitively: Netquake/Quakeworld (TDM, CTF, CA, TF) since 1996, Counter-Strike (beta 7 - 1.3), Team Fortress 2, and Natural Selection 2.

Why are multiple spawns such a bad idea? Is it to help with public play? It already happens on public play now when people aren’t coordinating, what’s the difference? If you’re coordinating properly, multiple spawn waves isn’t an issue. When you spawn, you wait for your teammates before pushing again. The benefit of always being rewarded for getting a frag far outweighs the negative of having multiple spawn waves. Completely minimizing any luck based factors in the spawn system is something you definitely want for a stopwatch game mode. Yes, I understand that a simple spawn timer is easy to understand and allows for timed pushes that can punish the other team’s respawn time. But don’t you think it’s a bad mechanic when something random happens and you’re not able to finish a frag or set of frags on the time you intended because of an unfortunate set of circumstances? Don’t you think it’s a poor mechanic when pressing ‘K’ is better than trying to stay alive to get back to your teammates by using smart positioning and decision making? Personally, I find it boring to watch as a spectator, and even more boring in game. I understand that it is a skill that is brought over from the older SD games, but do you really think it requires that much skill to understand and execute these concepts? Is this really something that needs to continue on to the next game in the SD series? It’s even worse in a game like Dirty Bomb when there are so many classes and abilities, like Red Eye’s headshot for example, who can instantly gib you and send you into the respawn queue.

I’m mainly concerned with the spawn system because it doesn’t seem like SD is going to be modifying the maps to take care of this issue, so we might as well try a different spawn method instead of just adding time to the waves as they stand. Here are a few different spawn systems:

TF2: Minimum and maximum spawn times based on number of capture points controlled. Example for cp_badlands, 3 control points captured: Minimum spawn time is 10 seconds, maximum spawn time is 20 seconds. If you die and the spawn timer is between 0 and 10, then you get the full minimum spawn time of 10 seconds. If you die between 10 and 20, you get the exact time on the wave. For example, if you died at 18, you will wait 18 seconds. It’s a good compromise. Fragging is always rewarded, and dying is never considered a better option over staying alive. It’s been tested in over 15 seasons of ESEA, and it allows players and spectators to focus on the frags and not the spawn timer. The spawn timer has never been brought up as an issue in the game. I really think that Valve made a good compromise here and took a wave based spawn solution to it’s only logical conclusion.

Day of Defeat: Spawn waves.

Day of Defeat: Source: Individual spawn timer based on number of players.

Dystopia: See Bitey’s post for a detailed explanation. I’m not a fan of this system as the game itself artificially inflates spawn times based on it’s own perceived value of player classes.

Natural Selection 2: Individual spawn timer.

Dota 2: Individual spawn timer, influenced by character level.

[prophett]

However, I have not actually mentioned (or at least seriously mentioned) any strategy revolving around the self kill so I would love to know where you think I have my wires crossed on that?

This quote threw me off because it couldn’t be further from the truth.

The limited number of classes you are able to play in a single round also reduces the number of self kills and need for self kills. Due to the map design (almost all maps) the self kill is also not that valuable.

[shaftz0r]

as i read that im sitting here shaking my head. tf2 gameplay doesnt fit with what dirty bomb is, at all. its a spam fest with meds that continually heal. obviously staying alive is more important, and a **** ton easier than in a game like this, not to mention that the obj types are drastically different. i just dont see how something like that would even remotely fit into this game play. maybe in different game modes like a control point, but not with continuous objectives that move forward in the map. again im purely speaking about competition, i could really care less what happens in pubs

[rline]

as i read that im sitting here shaking my head. tf2 gameplay doesnt fit with what dirty bomb is, at all. its a spam fest with meds that continually heal. obviously staying alive is more important, and a **** ton easier than in a game like this, not to mention that the obj types are drastically different. i just dont see how something like that would even remotely fit into this game play. maybe in different game modes like a control point, but not with continuous objectives that move forward in the map. again im purely speaking about competition, i could really care less what happens in pubs

The gameplay is dynamic in that one team is always defending and the other is attacking. What’s the issue here?

[xdc]

There were too many competitors in 2007 (TF2, COD4, UT3, Crysis)

all of which are crap FPS PC games, and none of which are really fast paced competitive skill based games.
I can’t take any of those games serious when coming from quakelive.

TF2 is too slow, and luck based,
COD4 was made for consoles,
no one plays UT3 and its gameplay mechanics are annoying (ALT fire, no strafe jumping),
Crysis wasnt made for its multiplayer, but for its single player and graphics

ETQW had a nice player base during open beta and release, it was only till they stopped patching the game is when it started to die

[DarkangelUK]

So basically the argument we have against long spawn waves is… non-existent. We have a proven system that kept people playing for years, vs a current system that had them stop playing after a few months. Again to re-iterate a previous point, the spawn system is just part of the issue, the other problem is the map design and poor spawn placement, Brink shows us all too well what damage this can cause to a player base.

You need to understand, this is a F2P game, to recoup costs and earn money SD need to steadily draw in and obtain a decent player base and keep attrition to a minimum, everything thus far has been going against the last point. Your failure to answer my question Pixel of “what class based, objective focused game did players move to that had a superior spawn system” (hint: there is no answer because said game doesn’t exist) and also taking into account the decline of player base with each SD game released is proof that they can’t risk ****ing with a proven formula. All this time SD have been playing it safe, aiming for highest denominator, but the one thing they need to get right they decide to mess around with? It just boggles my mind.

With W:ET SD had a ready made player base in the form of the RtCW crowd, using that, they SHOULD have had a ready made player base for ETQW, but messing with the proven formula (ranked servers, vehicles, limitations in the engine etc.) caused a lot of players to move away. From there they should have had a (granted, smaller) player base and transitioned them over to Brink, but again, more dicking about with the formula was the straw that broke the camels back and it was dead in months. SD have had years to mess about to try and find a superior system… they’ve failed and proven it doesn’t exist. They’re trying to re-invent the wheel when it’s simply not necessary and basing it on reasons that are unfounded, all the while ignoring what happens when you break what wasn’t broken in the 1st place.

I’ve been saying this to SD for years while sitting watching their games retain less players for a shorter period of time… stop tinkering! They’re the opposite of CoD, some may argue that that’s a good thing, sales figures and player bases say different. They should be capitalising on what worked and implementing that with each release instead of trying to ‘improve’ it and failing each time.

[stealth6]

Can’t we just have servers with the current system and others with instant respawn (possibly TDM)? The only time I’ve previously thought about spawntimes as a pub player was when it was taking too long and I just wanted to get back into the fight.

Also “JERRY JERRY JERRY”

[PixelTwitch]

The very fact you ask a question with no possible answer shows how dumb your argument is…

Your just stuck in your ways and obviously refuse to adapt.

Just because there is no other game with a different spawn system does not make this system the “best”. Do you even know how dumb of an argument that is… “yea guys, don’t think we need to try and innovate any more because this is obviously the best possible spawn system ever” seriously dude, get a grip.

EDIT: I am done now… You win, I give up…

[DarkangelUK]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;500494]The very fact you ask a question with no possible answer shows how dumb your argument is…

Your just stuck in your ways and obviously refuse to adapt.

Just because there is no other game with a different spawn system does not make this system the “best”. Do you even know how dumb of an argument that is… “yea guys, don’t think we need to try and innovate any more because this is obviously the best possible spawn system ever” seriously dude, get a grip.

EDIT: I am done now… You win, I give up…[/QUOTE]

Actually it just goes to show how futile your argument is when you’ve more or less just agreed there is no answer… what type of a person poses a scenario that doesn’t exist then tries to pass it off as fact?? I’ve quite clearly stated that SD have been trying for years to adjust, edit and provide a new system and have simply failed each time… use some bloody common sense. Read what’s actually being said instead of throwing a hissy fit because I don’t agree with you based on nothing but skewed ignorance and some sense of unguided allegiance to what ever SD throws in.

[Kl3ppy]

If you want to fight, do it private.
Keep it constructive and civilized otherwise I’ll close it.

[FROST1]

I’m too lazy to skim through the entire thread, but imo spawn times provide a nice little meta game(managing spawn times), that adds a bit more depth to any FPS game. It’s almost like a semi-lifebar, of which you have to be just as aware as of your actual lifebar. Aside from that it makes the game overall more tactical(less arena style), because dying can mean a lot in this game. Three guys getting taken out, just at the beginning of a new spawn-timer? That’s a huge problem for their team and could mean a lot in terms of their team’s progress.

[slanir]

I think it sounds like a good idea to enforce a minimum of ~10 seconds respawn time if there is less than 10 seconds left on the wave. There should never be a good time to die. Dying isn’t being punished enough right now, atleast for defence.

[fubar]

Summation of this topic: Following a static 20 or 30 second countdown is the equivalent to rocket science and could never be fully comprehended by your average casual player. Let’s instead invent a completely new, unproven and untested method that must be layered behind at least 5 different encryption algorithms to avoid anyone ever being able to abuse the other’s spawn.

[PixelTwitch]

Summation of this topic: Following a static 20 or 30 second countdown is the equivalent to rocket science and could never be fully comprehended by your average casual player. Let’s instead invent a completely new, unproven and untested method that must be layered behind at least 5 different encryption algorithms to avoid anyone ever being able to abuse the other’s spawn.

Actually the only thing I wanted to prevent you abusing was you own spawns… I want you to completely abuse the enemies.

[shaftz0r]

I’m too lazy to skim through the entire thread, but imo spawn times provide a nice little meta game(managing spawn times), that adds a bit more depth to any FPS game. It’s almost like a semi-lifebar, of which you have to be just as aware as of your actual lifebar. Aside from that it makes the game overall more tactical(less arena style), because dying can mean a lot in this game. Three guys getting taken out, just at the beginning of a new spawn-timer? That’s a huge problem for their team and could mean a lot in terms of their team’s progress.

exactly. say 3 teammates get decimated holding one side of a map, you know you have 15 seconds to hold them off of a plant, than killout to respawn with your team and make a concerted push to clear them all out. just a single example of why static waves make more sense in this type of game play.

I think it sounds like a good idea to enforce a minimum of ~10 seconds respawn time if there is less than 10 seconds left on the wave. There should never be a good time to die. Dying isn’t being punished enough right now, atleast for defence.

but this creates the meat grind effect. people spawning at random intervals doesnt help defense if theyre getting smashed at all.

Summation of this topic: Following a static 20 or 30 second countdown is the equivalent to rocket science and could never be fully comprehended by your average casual player. Let’s instead invent a completely new, unproven and untested method that must be layered behind at least 5 different encryption algorithms to avoid anyone ever being able to abuse the other’s spawn.

^ this