Spawn times


(slanir) #61

While I’ve experienced the glory of the spawn system in ET and ETQW I wouldn’t mind something else for Dirty Bomb IF it fits the gameplay better. People are so hell bent on wanting DB to be as close to ET as possible and seem to forget that it’s a new game with new ideas. Maybe there is another spawn system that will fit dirty bomb better than the archaic spawn wave system from ET.

And I agree with the people that say you should be punished more for getting gibbed, and not let the spawn timer decide if it was a good or bad time to die.

I got my flame proof suit on. :penguin:


(PixelTwitch) #62

The issue with both of these systems is it goes directly against something that Splash Damage want to avoid (according to multiple posts by the developers). They want to try and prevent multiple waves and single spawns in public play. This literally splits the attacking wave in two so does not really solve the issues in public.

Give me a shout when you are online would love to hear some of your ideas.


(Erkin31) #63

I like Dystopia and I always found that the objectives of Dystopia are more good than in ET/ETQW.
But for the spawn system, I always preferred the ET/ETQW spawn system, which is for me more exciting.
Damn, when you cap the flag of Oasis just 1 second before the spawn wave. This is fabulous.


(Glottis-3D) #64
  1. It is not an easy way, it is the right way. Because maps are the most hurting part.
  2. Why ppl keep calling spawnwave system a ‘luck’ system. It is you, who desides when opponent respawns, if you make a properly timed push. You force enemy’s respawn, if you are skilled enough. It is luck, only if you mindlessly fragfragfrag.

(PixelTwitch) #65

Good luck teaching that to the hundreds of thousands of people that are going to install this game on open beta…
They are the reason I feel the system needs to change.


(Erkin31) #66

Good luck teaching that to the hundreds of thousands of people that are going to install this game on open beta…

If they can’t understand the spawn system of a game like ET/ETQW, the will not understand a more complex spawn system.


(montheponies) #67

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;500326]Good luck teaching that to the hundreds of thousands of people that are going to install this game on open beta…
They are the reason I feel the system needs to change.[/QUOTE]

What’s difficult to understand about set spawntimes? Christ the timer is up on the left hand corner - back in the dark ages RTCW used to require a tab press to get your time - have IQs suddenly dropped (paraphasing Ripley)?

I get the impression that SD and a few others fear that the ADHD generation won’t accept long spawntimes (>20s), which seems at odds with the most popular FPS on PC at the moment (CSGO) having you sit out entire rounds if you’re stupid enough to rush in like a dual weilding mofo.


(onYn) #68

Honestly I didn´t want to post anything more about this, but unfortunately it is a big topic again.

So first of all, I would like to invite all of you, to think more then just one step ahead. Simple example of how people really doesn´t bother thinking further ahead and make suggestions and root for them for months, just because they are different from what is known, is a spawnsystem that is triggered upon death.

We all agree, that the old system of ET/ETQW gave the game unique game mechanics and I am not saying they are the BEST but they are just better compared to what currently is being suggested and discussed. I will focus on two of them, and give 1 at max 2 EASY examples, so that really everyone can understand of what they really root for…:

  • fast adjustment to team line up - even without objective classes, what are you going to do when your team is attacking an indoor objective after an outdoor objective? ALLWAYS waste the first attack with the sniper and artillery mercs, without any ability to respawn quickly, making a fluent progres to the next objective impossible? Simple example of how this mechanic would change and make the current game play even worse: If you want your team to be able to re spawn and progress fluently to the next objective, you actually have to send one of you dying, so that he can trigger the spawn… I don´t understand why finishing an objective with 5 guys should be punished with not being able to respawn while an attack that actually lets someone “die” can re spawn perfectly. I am not going to cover what happens when you run out of ammo or health during a defense… I am pretty sure everyone can imagine how “natural” it feels to send someone from your team to get killed so that a spawn timer is triggered and your team gets the ability to resupply itself or readjust the lineup…

+Ability to time pushes, re spawns etc. Keeping an eye on the spawn timer all the time not only allowed you to swap classes very efficiently in order to suit the current game situation (and I am not going to mention all of them, sorry) but also allowed yourself and your team to time your attacks in a way that you get the smallest re spawn, the enemy gets the biggest one, or the team is even split into two different spawn times. And yeah, this will be also possible with a spawn system that is triggered upon death and it will for sure make unorganized teams and pub play progress much faster. For me however, the pub play, is something I don´t tunnel vision on objectives, I play it simply for fun and try out different mercs and stuff… I don´t need a mechanic that makes the pub feel like a competition especially if it will totally destroy any kind of serious competition. Why would it destroy competition you ask? Well, that´s something we will need to think about in more then just one step. I am going to give you one easy example, of how this change would make some game mechanics so awkward that it hurts me to just imagine that (probably smart) people are rooting for this so heavily. It is simply insane much overpowered attacks would be. I am considering that defenders re spawn time is longer then the attackers in the following example. Blind assumption indeed, and currently not in the game, but I guess it will be, and even if not it doesn´t really change anything unless the spawn time will be 10 seconds, making it a grind anyways. Now all you need to do, is a simple two wave push stragedy, you send one of your guys aggressively, dying fast triggering the spawn… you wait for the half of the spawn time, just rush the objective gib 2 or even only one of the defenders (triggering full spawn time), respawn almost instantly (stretching the difference of the spawn by a huge amount), and attack now with 5 guys vs. a defense of 3 or 4 people at max. This is something that will happen in every single game where people use some of there brain, and there is NO way to defend against it. It is very easy to do, and requires very little skill, because the ammount of things you need to consider and how long you really need to care about the spawntimer isn´t even close to what you need to do playing with a constant ticking spawn timer. You could work around this issue with different spawn times, making them equal and what not (maybe even the defenders would end up being op) but the game would suffer from the same stupid “core gameplay” of who kills the first guy, is in a disadvantage, because the next enemy spawn wave will come so much earlier then yours… there is no way someone can tell me this is a solid, healthy game mechanic that will make anything better. And please keep in mind, this is something I came up within a couple of seconds. There are probably many other “interesting ways” to abuse such a mechanic.

So why do we need this change now? I am not saying that different ideas about different game aspects are bad. I just would like to see people to think of how the game play would evolve with certain changes beyond the initial idea that leads to a new suggestion (like making kills more meaningful was the a good intial idea of the triggered spawn upon death spawn system). After all many ideas are something different indeed, and may work out for some areas, but will certainly be devastating for so many different things in the meantime… For me changes like those, are something you do out of of frustration, where people don´t know what to do and just try anything that is different… like old grand mums hit the television when it doesn´t work anymore or people vote for strange parties in the next election, just because they are unhappy with the current situation…


(PixelTwitch) #69

The idea is that the system is complex so that they do not need to learn it…

A system that can be used at high level play but removes the luck factor in casual play.

What’s difficult to understand about set spawntimes? Christ the timer is up on the left hand corner - back in the dark ages RTCW used to require a tab press to get your time - have IQs suddenly dropped (paraphasing Ripley)?

I get the impression that SD and a few others fear that the ADHD generation won’t accept long spawntimes (>20s), which seems at odds with the most popular FPS on PC at the moment (CSGO) having you sit out entire rounds if you’re stupid enough to rush in like a dual weilding mofo.

Its not simply about the ADHD generation…
Games constantly evolve and in some cases devolve. Also, we have a lot more gamers now than what we used to have. Even 10 years ago this “casual gamer” tag was not really a thing out side of consoles. ET/ETQW are from a time where timing stuff in games was pretty standard. However over the years the popularity of these kinds of systems have died. Even games like starcraft work on build order and not clock timings. The other core difference of gaming today is Choice… If people do not like Dirty Bomb they have thousands of other games to try.

I have no issue with the spawn timer from ET/ETQW. I just believe there is a way to keep skill based timing in comp play but at the same time remove the luck based play from public. After all… You can make the game as competitive as you like but if only the people playing comp tune in to watch it the game will not last as a competitive title anyway.


(onYn) #70

I would actually like to see a pub version and a competition build of this game… The pub version could be like a lite version of the competition mode, giving super casual players as well as newcomers some game mechanics that support there efforts to play the game in an “exciting” way (maybe including a tutorial?), while still giving pub veterans and competition enough room to apply advanced tactics and gameplay.

Just a blind suggestions, dont kill me for it :smiley:


(DarkangelUK) #71

RtCW released over a decade ago on PC and console, long spawns, no teaching, everyone got it and understood it after a short period. Several years and games with the same formula later, suddenly no one will understand it, no one will cope and everyone will be lost? Blaming evolution is bull****, blaming the gamer is bull****, blaming expectation is bull****. We’ve been playing with the short spawn waves for over a year and a half, it sucks, end of. We had these discussions in the 1st few months and we’re still having them now. Blaming people being ‘stuck in the past’ or only caring about comp is also bull****, I’m not a comp player and lemming gameplay is boring as hell and a total meat grind-a-thon. The problem is, the spawns are only part of the bad design choice, the spawn positions, especially for defence are also a major factor.

Monthly rant over, carry on.


(PixelTwitch) #72

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;500423]RtCW released over a decade ago on PC and console, long spawns, no teaching, everyone got it and understood it after a short period. Several years and games with the same formula later, suddenly no one will understand it, no one will cope and everyone will be lost? Blaming evolution is bull****, blaming the gamer is bull****, blaming expectation is bull****. We’ve been playing with the short spawn waves for over a year and a half, it sucks, end of. We had these discussions in the 1st few months and we’re still having them now. Blaming people being ‘stuck in the past’ or only caring about comp is also bull****, I’m not a comp player and lemming gameplay is boring as hell and a total meat grind-a-thon. The problem is, the spawns are only part of the bad design choice, the spawn positions, especially for defence are also a major factor.

Monthly rant over, carry on.[/QUOTE]

Wow… That attitude…
What people fail to understand is that while the spawn wave system from ET/ETQW is great at high level play and yes people did learn it back then… It does not escape the fact that people have gotten used to far superior spawn systems since then. Asking a casual/pub player to go back to a antiquated system that rewards luck (in none aware pub games) is silly. Why would people play something that would frustrate them? Especially when they are so used to other systems that do not punish them in this way?

Stop living in the past…


(DarkangelUK) #73

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;500424]Wow… That attitude…
What people fail to understand is that while the spawn wave system from ET/ETQW is great at high level play and yes people did learn it back then… It does not escape the fact that people have gotten used to far superior spawn systems since then. Asking a casual/pub player to go back to a antiquated system that rewards luck (in none aware pub games) is silly. Why would people play something that would frustrate them? Especially when they are so used to other systems that do not punish them in this way?

Stop living in the past…[/QUOTE]

That has quite possibly got to the be the worst reason for using a system, because they’re used to it? Then you say stop living in the past and wanting to use a system we’re used to? Sheesh. No, those systems are NOT superior, not even in the slightest. Meat grinding, repetitive gameplay drives people away with frustration as we’ve already seen. People simply stopped playing, the same will happen when the fresh meat get tired of it as well… to call a system that actively puts people off ‘superior’ is ludicrous and suggests a vertical impact against the cranial region at infancy.


(PixelTwitch) #74

You have your opinions and I have my opinions…
Before commenting you really should have looked at my other posts on this thread because I too feel the spawn system we have now is horrible,
I just don’t think the old ET spawn system is going to improve things… The games are different and only really share a few core mechanics.
People also seem to forget that whilst it was popular for a LONG time within its core player base, people did move on. If the old ET/ETQW/RTCW playerbase is still strong enough to support the development, by all means just emulate them games and have done with it… Who needs us casual pub scrubs making your game bad after all right?


(DarkangelUK) #75

What games did they move onto that’s considered to have a superior spawn system that also has class based, objective focused gameplay found in SD’s previous games?

As for reading the previous replies. This discussion is old, long before you got here, nothing new has been said and nothing new has been done and we still have the same problems.


(shaftz0r) #76

i still dont understand the argument “better system”. im all for trying something new, but arguing that a super convoluted spawn system is somehow better than set spawn waves, truly blows my mind. i can legitimately come up with 10 scenarios right off the top of my head that having anything other than a set wave system, ruins. we’ve been talking about this same topic since long before the beta.

we realize that you’re a pubber pixel and that your life quite literally revolves around playing against bad players to make yourself look better for the 800 views that your videos on youtube get. you also dont play games like rtcw, et or etqw that require thought and aiming, so you prefer the meat grind effect, but thats the exact opposite of what we want to see this game become.

aslo as a quick edit, if you play in any organized pug, you’ll see that SW uses the spawn system that we want (unless thats changed in the last few months)


(DarkangelUK) #77

His argument is full of crap. He takes people simply progressing to another game after years of playing the same one, and tries to pass it off as moving on to something superior, codswallop.


(PixelTwitch) #78

[QUOTE=shaftz0r;500431]i still dont understand the argument “better system”. im all for trying something new, but arguing that a super convoluted spawn system is somehow better than set spawn waves, truly blows my mind. i can legitimately come up with 10 scenarios right off the top of my head that having anything other than a set wave system, ruins. we’ve been talking about this same topic since long before the beta.

we realize that you’re a pubber pixel and that your life quite literally revolves around playing against bad players to make yourself look better for the 800 views that your videos on youtube get. you also dont play games like rtcw, et or etqw that require thought and aiming, so you prefer the meat grind effect, but thats the exact opposite of what we want to see this game become.

aslo as a quick edit, if you play in any organized pug, you’ll see that SW uses the spawn system that we want (unless thats changed in the last few months)[/QUOTE]

Actually if you knew what you was talking about you would know that the current spawn system allows you to tap out when ever you like and respawn after the wave has gone out… completely nerfing your “importance of predicting spawns”. You also can press tab at any time to watch when people respawn. The limited number of classes you are able to play in a single round also reduces the number of self kills and need for self kills. Due to the map design (almost all maps) the self kill is also not that valuable. Lack of nades has removed the ability to predict and kill off respawns. Location of Defenders spawn + unlimited revives reduces the effectiveness of timed pushes…

Tell me… What is it you are really holding onto here?

Please share your 10 situations at some point… I want to see how convoluted your scenarios are!
ps, your need to get personal with your insults just shows how much of a pathetic little bitch you really are.


(prophett) #79

This should be addressed for comp (unless SD have completely lost their minds).

This should be addressed for comp and pub play (unless SD have completely lost their minds).

Limited classes has absolutely nothing to do with it, neither does the map design. Not to be insulting, but this statement makes it quite clear that you have no idea how to properly use self-kill.

The only thing that reduces the effect of timed pushes is a fast defensive respawn. Exactly what a longer 25-30s wave would correct.

A proven system that works. It’s not working properly now because the D time is to low. Either make it 15/25 or 20/30 for attackers/defenders.

Based on the travel times examples I gave, 15/25 might also work.


(PixelTwitch) #80

The only thing that reduces the effect of timed pushes is a fast defensive respawn. Exactly what a longer 25-30s wave would correct.

I actually COMPLETELY agree with you that this would solve the problem.
I also believe that doing so is going to turn the casual public game into a complete mess.

A proven system that works. It’s not working properly now because the D time is to low. Either make it 15/25 or 20/30 for attackers/defenders.

Again, I have no doubts that this would fix the high level play. I also feel it will mess up public play.


Look, I am not saying the original spawn system is by any means bad. I actually do see many positives in comp play. My issue is how this will effect pub play and frustrations of public players. The vast majority of this “core community” have a horrible habit of being completely closed minded and lack the willingness to even consider that there may be a better solution out there…

By no means am I saying that the comp/high skilled players will not have to make a compromise, they will…
The only reason why I care about the low skilled and pub players in the game is because experience has shown the how successful a game is in “eSports” has a direct correlation to how well a game does in public. Even more so since the success of LoL, Dota, Starcraft, CS:GO and others. Tournament organisers, Potential sponsors of events and even the pro teams all expect a whole lot more than what games like ET offered in the past. If people do not care about prize pools or public play that is totally fine by me… However, for the game to reach its full potential the public play has got to be really cleaned up system wise.

All this is not to even mention the fact that the game right now lacks tension from the point of view of a spectator.

Please understand I have NOTHING against ET/ETQW or any of their systems.
I just believe that the best possible systems have not even been considered/designed yet.