Spawn Camping: Not A Thing Of The Past

(Je T´aime) #61

Well im against making respw times longer, gets boring waiting to respaw if anything just make the attackers respaw timer faster instead but again teams are only respaw camped when teams are unbalanced like 3 dudes from a decent clan vs random newb pubs and its guaranteed to have respaw camping at any map.

(Cep) #62

[QUOTE=KAS–Will;342848]Both.

I’ve even been in games where my teams trapped and completely owned on Shipyard… which is hard. The more ways to get out of a spawn, the harder it is to spawn camp, that’s what I’ve noted. And Security Tower and CCity, only have 2 routes for the attacking team to get out of spawn. After leaving their spawn protection (the indestructible turret locations), there are more areas to move around and flank, but when I’ve been spawn camped, I’ve had a hard time not taking at least 1 hit before leaving spawn… either from bots or enemy players.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly the problem, the 2 or 3 choke points from a spawn.

I tried a little test to see just how close I could get to the Sec Tower spawn last night and I managed to get so close that I could in fact shoot and kill my opponent at the exact spot he spawned at.

This is because the obstacles in front of the spawn (the blocks of cement) give you just enough cover to dodge the invincible turrets by leaning left, taking a shot and leaning back. Rinse and Repeat.

Now I am not saying that in an actual game I could just as easily reach that point, but I have got very close with at least several other team mates.

The best remedy for both Sec Tower and more importantly CC is to open up more routes from the spawn.

On CC if they allowed Sec to climb up on top of the containers which surround their spawn it would give them a level playing field. Across the top it would make the job a lot more difficult for campers surrounding the 1st entryway as they would be at risk of covering fire from above. It would also even the playing field out since not only does Res have the advantage of a wall/gate they also have the gantry and balcony to shoot down on their enemies.

On Sec Tower its a little more difficult but you could either have a second stairwell (or something to climb up) to the immediate left of the spawn near the first door to enable Res to get on top of the roof to provide covering fire. Or additionally you could build out and expand the map directly in front of the spawn so that Res can reach the lower walls (where the two square pits are) via a sewer tunnel or a high stone perimeter wall.

Having tried a number of methods to test these theories out I feel unclean.

All this spawn rapin makes me feel real dirty…

(Exedore) #63

Having seen it in many games, I’m not sure spawn camping is totally avoidable if you have anything other than a very open setting. Fact of the matter is, even if you can get out of your spawn, there will always be successive choke-points that can be locked down by an organized defence. This is in no small part down to engine occlusion methods… and of course developers are always wanting to push more detail, which means less openness in levels.

A thing to remember about both Container City and Security Tower are that they are effectively the home bases of the Resistance and Security.

(Smoochy) #64

[QUOTE=Cep;343008]This is exactly the problem, the 2 or 3 choke points from a spawn.

I tried a little test to see just how close I could get to the Sec Tower spawn last night and I managed to get so close that I could in fact shoot and kill my opponent at the exact spot he spawned at.

This is because the obstacles in front of the spawn (the blocks of cement) give you just enough cover to dodge the invincible turrets by leaning left, taking a shot and leaning back. Rinse and Repeat.

Now I am not saying that in an actual game I could just as easily reach that point, but I have got very close with at least several other team mates.

The best remedy for both Sec Tower and more importantly CC is to open up more routes from the spawn.

On CC if they allowed Sec to climb up on top of the containers which surround their spawn it would give them a level playing field. Across the top it would make the job a lot more difficult for campers surrounding the 1st entryway as they would be at risk of covering fire from above. It would also even the playing field out since not only does Res have the advantage of a wall/gate they also have the gantry and balcony to shoot down on their enemies.

On Sec Tower its a little more difficult but you could either have a second stairwell (or something to climb up) to the immediate left of the spawn near the first door to enable Res to get on top of the roof to provide covering fire. Or additionally you could build out and expand the map directly in front of the spawn so that Res can reach the lower walls (where the two square pits are) via a sewer tunnel or a high stone perimeter wall.

Having tried a number of methods to test these theories out I feel unclean.

All this spawn rapin makes me feel real dirty…[/QUOTE]

+1. if security could climb up and counter-snipe resistance it would be much better, they would initially have an advantage that would vanish once the gate is open.

if resistance have some fast lights its almost impossible to get the gate open. plus, if you do get to the gate later half the team is dead trying to cover you, meaning you rarely have medics to revive you if you die planting the charge

(HiGHJaCK) #65

Container City can be spawncamped if the offense is slow or just dumb.
If you get a soldier (light/medium) who rush the first objective, there is no chance for the defence to stop planting the charge.(with a medic behind him)
Once the charge is planted ther is no way to disarm the charge.

Sec Tower is the same. If you get a soldier right at the beginning. There is not the slightest chance for the defending team to get to the door in the right time. If you arrive and the offensive team is doing right there should be 8 offensive player defending the HE charge.
If the offensive team is dumb and afraid of beeing hit and they are not standing next to the objective the defense team will get advantage because of the higher position and the attack team will not complete this objective.

Sec Tower is a full hold when you play in a team full of dumbasses not realising this is not COD and hiding behind spots, not moving, not rushing to the objective, not buffing. If your team is doing everything right the first objective should be one HE chrage plant and then explosion without any chance to disarm it. (Distance to objective 1 for the offense is ca. 7 seconds - for the defense it is 2-3 times long)
If you join a game where the offense is stuck at the first objective in SecTower you can leave the same second because you wont win a single game with this team because full of cowards, and chickens hiding behind spots instead of rushing the objective and using the advantage of the short distance to the objective.

(TwwIX) #66

[QUOTE=Exedore;343019]Having seen it in many games, I’m not sure spawn camping is totally avoidable if you have anything other than a very open setting. Fact of the matter is, even if you can get out of your spawn, there will always be successive choke-points that can be locked down by an organized defence. This is in no small part down to engine occlusion methods… and of course developers are always wanting to push more detail, which means less openness in levels.

A thing to remember about both Container City and Security Tower are that they are effectively the home bases of the Resistance and Security.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but the spawn camping in this game is to be blamed on your level designers since they have created choke points right in front of a spawn. Had you play tested your game properly, this could have easily been avoided.

(wolfnemesis75) #67

[QUOTE=Exedore;343019]Having seen it in many games, I’m not sure spawn camping is totally avoidable if you have anything other than a very open setting. Fact of the matter is, even if you can get out of your spawn, there will always be successive choke-points that can be locked down by an organized defence. This is in no small part down to engine occlusion methods… and of course developers are always wanting to push more detail, which means less openness in levels.

A thing to remember about both Container City and Security Tower are that they are effectively the home bases of the Resistance and Security.[/QUOTE]

Both are my favorite maps in the game. They are both Epic to be attacking. Yes, you can get locked down on the ramp in ST, but it is very doable with a good team. CC takes some practice and know-how, but once you are prepared, the map rocks. Those who are caught unprepared, can lose the edge coming out of spawn. The trick is to be prepared. Always helps to play with a good team.

(HiGHJaCK) #68

I think if you play and test the game as an developer you play and test the game like it was ment to be played. That means you play the game objective oriented. And if you play it this way there is no problem in CC nor in SecTower at the first objective.

Should the developer test the game also in a dumb way? this means should they test what happens if the offense hide behind corners do not rush and leave the objective alone. I think it is clear that the defense is at a advantage when facing such enemies.
I think most of the playerbase (approx. 80%) need to adapt to this teamplay and need to recognice that this game is not about KDR and instead of watching for there KDR they need to rush, die a hundred times, buff teammates and get this ****ing objective done.

I am sure when the Stats for PC are online my KDR will be something like every one would call me out as a noob. But if you watch my completed objectives i am sure i am far above 80% of all gamers. I think thats the way this game is ment to be played in if the people adapt to teamplay the games will become more balanced. I think an increase of the respawntimer will change nothing because this objectives are doable right now if they are done right. And if you face a team hiding like cowards you can change the respaw timer to 1 minute and i promise you this team will not win because they are hiding like cowards and just watching there KDR.

(Cep) #69

The argument of being in a good team is irrelevant. I have seen good teams get spawned over simply because of a lucky petrol bomb or stray shot delaying the initial attack, and that is if you are lucky enough to find a team who does move cohesively.

The fact of the matter is, its the choke points directly outside the spawns, right against opposing defensive positions that cause the problems. End of story, there is no argument about that.

In a game with such small team sizes 2 or 3 avenues of attack are bound to cause spawn camping issues its a fact. This is why Shipyard is such a good map because there are at least 5 avenues of attack to each of the main objectives and the spawns are set much farther from them. This map allows the attacking team the option to flank via different avenues, whilst not hindering the defensive team.

In CC and ST this is not something you can accomplish for the simple fact that if your initial attack fails (for whatever reason, bad team, bad luck, better opponents) the 2 or 3 choke points can easily be covered and held by up to three members of the opposing team at the same time.

There is no possibility once a defence is in place to break it, I have seen it far too many times as have many many others which is the exact reason that this discussion over these two maps is repeated on a constant basis.

(HiGHJaCK) #70

[QUOTE=Cep;343093]The argument of being in a good team is irrelevant. I have seen good teams get spawned over simply because of a lucky petrol bomb or stray shot delaying the initial attack, and that is if you are lucky enough to find a team who does move cohesively.

The fact of the matter is, its the choke points directly outside the spawns, right against opposing defensive positions that cause the problems. End of story, there is no argument about that.

…

There is no possibility once a defence is in place to break it, I have seen it far too many times as have many many others which is the exact reason that this discussion over these two maps is repeated on a constant basis.[/QUOTE]

If we speak about ContainerCity, i am with you. When the initial attack fails and the opposite team is good and know what to do, there is a possibility that the offense do not get back in the game.
But if we speak about Sectower i have no idea how a full hold will work if both teams are even. Maybe if the offense is full of campers that do not move to the objective there will be a full hold. But if the offense rush to the door and plant the charge i have no clue how the defense will get a chance to get in place to defend this door.

(wolfnemesis75) #71

[QUOTE=HiGHJaCK;343114]If we speak about ContainerCity, i am with you. When the initial attack fails and the opposite team is good and know what to do, there is a possibility that the offense do not get back in the game.
But if we speak about Sectower i have no idea how a full hold will work if both teams are even. Maybe if the offense is full of campers that do not move to the objective there will be a full hold. But if the offense rush to the door and plant the charge i have no clue how the defense will get a chance to get in place to defend this door.[/QUOTE]

A full hold can happen at the first gate on ST if the attacking team plays passive. Brink smashes teams and players for being passive. The challenges attempt to teach this lesson especially on Be Objective. If you sit back and try to snipe, shoot across long stretches of space at enemy, then you are very ineffective. Pushing straight up to the gate is important. But there is an element of practice know-how and understanding of the game. Not everyone understands that this FPS turns the genre up on its head. Some habits are tough to break. I see it every night when I am playing with a group of guys I know and we run into at least one team that is playing passive every night. They usually cannot get past the first obj.

(its al bout security) #72

in Ccity if one was to go to the leftmost part of the securities spawn climb the crate with the railing they can drop down the wall and hide behind a small wall. with a shot gun pretty unbeatable. or they can look around with a lobster, and fire, the lobster instantly realods pulling you out of the lean, and with a soldier you could make their day awfully filled with grenades.

(Jess Alon) #73

[QUOTE=BomBaKlaK;342322]didi you play the same game ? are you serious ?
stop doing your blind fanboy and just admit a fact !
If light resistance rush and cover the 2 exit of the security spawn they difuse it really easy and that the start of the spawn camping party …

same on resort / and a bit on security tower

it’s all about rush ! if you dont rush you’re dead ! that’s all and not very funny[/QUOTE]

I’m out of rep for today. I’ll get you tommorrow.

(SebaSOFT) #74

While being spawn camped is not enjoyable I must admit I was more attracted to play and less frustrated than most other games. I fouind that being able to decieve snipers with abilities turrets and nades, and actually getting some recognition while doing that is a great thing of BRINK today

(Galaxy) #75

[QUOTE=Exedore;343019]Having seen it in many games, I’m not sure spawn camping is totally avoidable if you have anything other than a very open setting. Fact of the matter is, even if you can get out of your spawn, there will always be successive choke-points that can be locked down by an organized defence. This is in no small part down to engine occlusion methods… and of course developers are always wanting to push more detail, which means less openness in levels.

A thing to remember about both Container City and Security Tower are that they are effectively the home bases of the Resistance and Security.[/QUOTE]

This is actually an observation I was thinking of before, I mean that technically spawn camping is the same as any other choke point. You might even say that the lock downs in the gate area of CC are not technically ‘spawn camping’ since the real spawn area, the dock, is protected by the spawn turrets, but in my opinion there is a difference, but it’s more psychological than real. For me ‘spawn camping’ means that you basically take two steps after spawning without having much choice of what to do or where to go and then you are killed. This makes the player feel that his death was not fair, and that (although possible) it wouldn’t have been that easy to avoid. I think the cause of this feeling is what many people refer to when they say ‘spawn camping’.

I have accepted, and now are enjoying the game because of it, that this game IS about choke points. It’s about one team defending a ‘base’ creating a somewhat static deployment and another team then having that as a constant, trying different variables to overcome it. Though even defending teams are very dynamic and changing within several predictable parameters, and I think that is the beauty of the game design, it works as principle of defence vs attack but the game forces movement.

But I still consider what happens in CC as something falling under the category of spawn camping, I understand the view about the ‘home bases’ (something that players have theorised before that now appears confirmed) but even in that case I have seen it happen WAY more times on CC than on sec tower, so I think that the balance even along those lines is not perfect. Giving the security side at least one more option to defend themselves would be enough I think to keep the intensity of the level but make it a bit more enjoyable.

(Smoochy) #76

[QUOTE=HiGHJaCK;343060]Container City can be spawncamped if the offense is slow or just dumb.
If you get a soldier (light/medium) who rush the first objective, there is no chance for the defence to stop planting the charge.(with a medic behind him)
Once the charge is planted ther is no way to disarm the charge.

Sec Tower is the same. If you get a soldier right at the beginning. There is not the slightest chance for the defending team to get to the door in the right time. If you arrive and the offensive team is doing right there should be 8 offensive player defending the HE charge.
If the offensive team is dumb and afraid of beeing hit and they are not standing next to the objective the defense team will get advantage because of the higher position and the attack team will not complete this objective.

Sec Tower is a full hold when you play in a team full of dumbasses not realising this is not COD and hiding behind spots, not moving, not rushing to the objective, not buffing. If your team is doing everything right the first objective should be one HE chrage plant and then explosion without any chance to disarm it. (Distance to objective 1 for the offense is ca. 7 seconds - for the defense it is 2-3 times long)
If you join a game where the offense is stuck at the first objective in SecTower you can leave the same second because you wont win a single game with this team because full of cowards, and chickens hiding behind spots instead of rushing the objective and using the advantage of the short distance to the objective.[/QUOTE]

as i said last night, i was soldier going into the map, so i didnt need to change class. i ran as fast as a medium can to plant the charge but when i got there 3 lights were waiting. and i got incapped then naded straight away so no medic can help. it doesnt help that when right at the gate you cant see much past it, yet they can easily see a soldier and snipe him.

i always find sec tower an even game.

(Smoochy) #77

[QUOTE=HiGHJaCK;343114]If we speak about ContainerCity, i am with you. When the initial attack fails and the opposite team is good and know what to do, there is a possibility that the offense do not get back in the game.
But if we speak about Sectower i have no idea how a full hold will work if both teams are even. Maybe if the offense is full of campers that do not move to the objective there will be a full hold. But if the offense rush to the door and plant the charge i have no clue how the defense will get a chance to get in place to defend this door.[/QUOTE]

i managed it myself last night - took me 7 mins though after being killed the first time.

i rushed from the furthest exit to the spawn, killed the 2 people laying in wait. ran below the bit where they jump down from, reloaded, killed the 3 turrets and 2 other guys, legged it to the door and planted the bomb, then covered it while my team caught up.

the problem is that my team were frikkin useless. i had to do it all. when i died and respawned after the gate blew, they hadnt even started the bot! i had to do that too! they dont realise that the bot actually gives you cover and helps you get near the door once its on its way.

(Smoochy) #78

also - why dont medic ever seem to have adrenalin? would help us people doing the objective. i have it on 2 characters but i dont always want to play medic. i am playing mainly with a new ‘jack of all trades’ character now and i normally go straight for the objective

(HiGHJaCK) #79

thats the reason so many people crying in the forum about the challenge 3 star Be Objective.
I never understood why someone can have problems doing this 3 star challenge.
You read that this only can be done with a new char and there is no chance to do it with lvl 20. But i tell you this are all coward campers trying to clear a area and wonder why the enemys are back 20 seconds later. And exactly this people have problems in every ****ing map because they have no clue how this game is beeing played. Just play public and watch your mates. There is no class balance, 4 snipers and everyone is camping and hiding.

i mostly play with my brother, so we have a soldier and a medic right at the begin of the map.
but when i play solo and try to plant the he charge, there is not one ****ing medic behind me they are selfish hiding behind there spots, selfhealing and do not care one second about the objective.

(Exedore) #80

Quite astute.

I’m not trying to explain away CCity’s problems either, though; we know it’s an issue that needs to be solved. Sorry for the tease, but more specifics soon.