So... Are We Bringing Back Jump Sniping...

(straightforwardMacadamia) #101

@opicr0n

To be fair, I DID actually use that sodding disagree button. I have my salty moments.

(slicK.JTheJackal) #102

Snipers are strong as hell in the right hands, be it for covering objectives or simply killing. Removing any limitations they currently have would only disturb the balance that already exists for the worse.

While I’d agree jumping around and sniping is fun and does take a degree of skill, I do think adding that amount of mobility to such a strong class would be harmful to the other mercs.

(Sinee) #103

[quote=“slicK.JTheJackal;194181”]Snipers are strong as hell in the right hands, be it for covering objectives or simply killing. Removing any limitations they currently have would only disturb the balance that already exists for the worse.

While I’d agree jumping around and sniping is fun and does take a degree of skill, I do think adding that amount of mobility to such a strong class would be harmful to the other mercs.[/quote]

But why? When Aura or Proxy can lightning bolt in at the speed of a microfart and blast any Vassili away with a half-brained flank for example? If the argument is used against snipers, why isn’t it used against shotguns?

Or Kira can drop a laser or any one of the 900000 mercs with explosives could just chuck them from down the football field and blast him to smitherenes?

I don’t get this argument that a Vassili who uses the same mobility system everyone else is entitled to, is somehow impossible to counter because it’s so OP. It’s an absurd argument, which is why the majority was against this change, and people are still talking about how absolutely retarded it was.

(straightforwardMacadamia) #104

@Mercy
I’d imagine the reason the argument isn’t used against shotguns is because they have to get close to whoever they are shooting at. Besides, while they are fast, they sure as hell are squishy as well, with the exception of Rhino. If Vassili used a shotgun, he’d be able to jump and shoot as well. If Proxy or Aura used a sniper, they wouldn’t be able to jump snipe.

It’s not absurd argument, because Vassili (as well as Aimee and Redeye) has the weapons to abuse it while the other mercs don’t.

Also, sure enough a Kira can drop a laser on a sniper, but it’s hardly convenient. It works well in theory, but I’m sure you’d rather use the laser on something else than a sniper jumping up and down far away, such as the people stopping you from flanking him.

(watsyurdeal) #105

[quote=“Mercy;194187”][quote=“slicK.JTheJackal;194181”]Snipers are strong as hell in the right hands, be it for covering objectives or simply killing. Removing any limitations they currently have would only disturb the balance that already exists for the worse.

While I’d agree jumping around and sniping is fun and does take a degree of skill, I do think adding that amount of mobility to such a strong class would be harmful to the other mercs.[/quote]

But why? When Aura or Proxy can lightning bolt in at the speed of a microfart and blast any Vassili away with a half-brained flank for example? If the argument is used against snipers, why isn’t it used against shotguns?

Or Kira can drop a laser or any one of the 900000 mercs with explosives could just chuck them from down the football field and blast him to smitherenes?

I don’t get this argument that a Vassili who uses the same mobility system everyone else is entitled to, is somehow impossible to counter because it’s so OP. It’s an absurd argument, which is why the majority was against this change, and people are still talking about how absolutely retarded it was.[/quote]

Pretty much this

(slicK.JTheJackal) #106

Mercs like Aura and Proxy are extremely mobile and good at close quarters, sure. They’re supposed to be able to zip about though and I would argue that they should be able to do so much damage with shotguns to punish mercs that get too close because a merc that gets too close has failed to take advantage of their extreme squishiness. Aura and Proxy drop so fast that I’ve never even considered it a problem because, again, if they kill me then it’s because I’ve failed to take advantage of their low health pool.

Vassili, on the other hand, is supposed to be at a reasonable distance from the action whilst also being a part of it. His motion sensors can effectively keep a third eye on a flank while you’re looking elsewhere, alerting you to any enemy mercs if needs be. Vassili is already so easy to quick scope with that you can get very close to the action already and a body shot on a proxy or aura will almost kill them (Mercs that are supposed to have a significant advantage over a Vassili at close range). Giving snipers the ability to jump around and fire is just giving even more mobility to a merc that, in theory, isn’t even supposed to be that close to an enemy.

Try and think of your example in terms of team play instead of individuals: If the Aura or Proxy has flanked you, then your team has let you down, it isn’t a fault of that class, they have simply gotten to you due to your teams inability to protect your flank or your own inability to cover a flank with a motion sensor etc.

Kira has to stand still for a moment to use her laser which means you have a valuable 1-2 seconds to decide whether to shoot her in the head or run away from where she is about to drop her laser. Sniper has the advantage here. The mercs with explosives either have significant cooldowns or, again, your team is failing you by letting them harrass you with explosives.

It’s not impossible to counter. In my opinion, Vassili having that ability is just another feather in his cap and gives him even more power in areas he doesn’t belong against mercs he’s supposed to be disadvantaged against. It’s a question of pros and cons.

(XavienX) #107

Mercs like Aura and Proxy are extremely mobile and good at close quarters, sure. They’re supposed to be able to zip about though and I would argue that they should be able to do so much damage with shotguns to punish mercs that get too close because a merc that gets too close has failed to take advantage of their extreme squishiness. Aura and Proxy drop so fast that I’ve never even considered it a problem because, again, if they kill me then it’s because I’ve failed to take advantage of their low health pool.

Vassili, on the other hand, is supposed to be at a reasonable distance from the action whilst also being a part of it. His motion sensors can effectively keep a third eye on a flank while you’re looking elsewhere, alerting you to any enemy mercs if needs be. Vassili is already so easy to quick scope with that you can get very close to the action already and a body shot on a proxy or aura will almost kill them (Mercs that are supposed to have a significant advantage over a Vassili at close range). Giving snipers the ability to jump around and fire is just giving even more mobility to a merc that, in theory, isn’t even supposed to be that close to an enemy.

Try and think of your example in terms of team play instead of individuals: If the Aura or Proxy has flanked you, then your team has let you down, it isn’t a fault of that class, they have simply gotten to you due to your teams inability to protect your flank or your own inability to cover a flank with a motion sensor etc.

Kira has to stand still for a moment to use her laser which means you have a valuable 1-2 seconds to decide whether to shoot her in the head or run away from where she is about to drop her laser. Sniper has the advantage here. The mercs with explosives either have significant cooldowns or, again, your team is failing you by letting them harrass you with explosives.

It’s not impossible to counter. In my opinion, Vassili having that ability is just another feather in his cap and gives him even more power in areas he doesn’t belong against mercs he’s supposed to be disadvantaged against. It’s a question of pros and cons.

[/quote]

I feel like you’re missing a huge counterplay ability. Just by running in zigzags and a medic who rezzes you up and you both split and run in a random unpredictable direction towards the sniper is a HUGE counterplay. The sniper will have to keep trying to jumpsnipe which gives the player less than a second of a window to decide where to shoot and predict where their opponent is heading towards in a millisecond. After many attempts failed, the sniper is almost guranteed dead especially if 2 players charge towards him, he wouldn’t even have the chance to get a bodyshot anymore. @slicK.JTheJackal

(slicK.JTheJackal) #108

I’m not sure why this scenario is a plus point for the argument of bringing back jump sniping.

(Amerika) #109

I think I need to remind people that the first time jump sniping was removed, rather randomly in a patch with it also being an unannounced change, there was a monster community backlash against it to the point that SD quickly changed it back to the normal mechanics on the next patch. Then, despite it rarely ever being brought up in any balance conversations both at the low and high end of the spectrum, it was removed again later on. And this was even after headshot gibs were removed. The change was explained on stream, which I transcribed and posted on this forum, and boiled down to, “I didn’t like it” with some other fluff.

Designers at SD didn’t like it so we don’t have it anymore. It wasn’t a balance decision. It wasn’t a community outcry that prompted it. It changed because SD wanted a more traditional sit still and fire sniper and that’s that.

It’s their game, they can do what they want. I just don’t agree with the change. And as history has proven it’s not been a positive change at all since it promotes the one playstyle we all hate…sit at the back of a map and do nothing to help the objective beyond be annoying.

Bolt-action play is rarely seen in organized competitive matches now and it’s more of a gimmick or liability in a game paced like DB. In other games I’d agree that jump sniping should not have been a thing. In DB though it most definitely should be from my perspective due to the speed of play.

(AlphaUT) #110

@straightforwardMacadamia
Wait did you just compare the skill that required between Vassili jump shot and Fletcher jump Throw? And as what you tried to say, they require the same skill.

(AlphaUT) #111

Simply SD DID NOT LIKE IT. It’s their game, what else can I do ?

(straightforwardMacadamia) #112

@AlphaUT
Umm. I’m not sure if you’re getting my point or not. I’m defo sure I’m not getting your point, at all.

Anyways, it’s been pointed out that it’s not a balancing issue, so I guess I’m done here. Still, if I had to choose, I’d still say no to bringing it back. I’d be fine with silly Vassilis running around in close clombat, jumping about, working on their montages. It’s the guy jumping up and down behind cover, giving you a 0.2 chance of killing him while he’s got a perfect accuracy of you that I’m against.

Can Fletcher do this? Yes, he can. Is it hard? No, not really. But at least in his case it requires him to be rather up close. Well, you know, behind a wall. My point in my post was that jumping or not, Fletcher will do what he’s doing. It’s not the jumping per se that makes him strong. Whether his stickies are too strong, too easy to use or whatever, is another question.

(CLS) #113

I understand why people playing snipers enjoy that mechanism, it’s fun, rewarding and yet requires a bit of skill to be efficient at it. Now, from the perspective of a dude playing pugs & scrimms with some of the best snipers out there, I see absolutely 0 reason to bring another trick in their sleeves. I consider myself a descent player, yet, against the best, there is literally nothing I can do unless I get lucky and they miss a bit.

There are maps where we ban snipers, just because of how powerful they are in great hands. People like Anders or Zuppehw can wipe pretty much the entire enemy team, all by themselves and there is very little you can do but hope the sniper in your team can outplay them. I can’t even imagine the horror if they were accurate jumping all around…

Just giving the perspective of a “comp” player, I know PUBs are different and you see more bottom score vassilis than dudes like AlphaUT or spec, but I thought it’d be worth bringing up that side of the game too.

(neverplayseriou) #114

@CLS “Zuppehw” nah that’s just the pdp

(CLS) #115

I hope your point isn’t that you can’t take down a whole team with the PDP, cause you’d be dead wrong.

(neverplayseriou) #116

@CLS No I hate using the pdp but when you see zuppeh using a bolt action the impact he has becomes way less.

(Szakalot) #117

i saw Anders use grandeur and it was almost as annoying as PDP Zuppehw, these people should be forced to melee only, srsly : P

(Amerika) #118

When talking about jump sniping, at least for my parts in the conversation, I am always referring to bolt-action rifles. The PDP and GR gain very little from the mechanic compared to the bolt-action rifles.

(Dawnlazy) #119

I think the removal of sway when moving and crosshair offset when scoping in were much better changes that help in a lot more situations.

(Black) #120

[quote=“Amerika;194229”]I think I need to remind people that the first time jump sniping was removed, rather randomly in a patch with it also being an unannounced change, there was a monster community backlash against it to the point that SD quickly changed it back to the normal mechanics on the next patch. Then, despite it rarely ever being brought up in any balance conversations both at the low and high end of the spectrum, it was removed again later on. And this was even after headshot gibs were removed. The change was explained on stream, which I transcribed and posted on this forum, and boiled down to, “I didn’t like it” with some other fluff.

Designers at SD didn’t like it so we don’t have it anymore. It wasn’t a balance decision. It wasn’t a community outcry that prompted it. It changed because SD wanted a more traditional sit still and fire sniper and that’s that.

It’s their game, they can do what they want. I just don’t agree with the change. And as history has proven it’s not been a positive change at all since it promotes the one playstyle we all hate…sit at the back of a map and do nothing to help the objective beyond be annoying.

Bolt-action play is rarely seen in organized competitive matches now and it’s more of a gimmick or liability in a game paced like DB. In other games I’d agree that jump sniping should not have been a thing. In DB though it most definitely should be from my perspective due to the speed of play.[/quote]

Thanks for this @Amerika .

This just about closes up this thread and topic from coming up again. Not that I think it’s because you are mod this has more value as I understand your opinions are your own.

It’s because you assert that there was a “monster community backlash”, which some people coughs @blonk just dosen’t seem to understand.

The amount of people who disagreed with it is overwhelming. It’s obvious. But like I said previously, I’m not going to tell SD how to develop a game, it’s their game and they can do whatever they want. I just have the opinion that it was a poor decision on their part and it made some players leave and others angry.