Sniper

(BioSnark) #41

But it can be made a normal part of every firefight or it can be made ineffective.

(INF3RN0) #42

[QUOTE=tokamak;210507]It’s still an exploit, it doesn’t matter if you need to learn it, most exploits need to be learned in order to be effective, it still detracts from the original gameplay.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;210551]Aim is one skill in FPS games, but not the only skill. Some games have elevated aiming to the top of the skils list, intentionally or otherwise. I’d guess that developers are finding, as has been expressed here, that the result is fewer players find those games fun.

Brink has moved off of aim as the most imortant skill. Instead, Brink has elevated movement, tactics, play variety, and cooperation, to name just a few other game aspects. This re-emphasis creates opportunities for such things as SMART, use of controllers, no need for multiple hitboxes, etc.

I believe this approach will reduce the advantage to players that have focused on superior aiming skill and will probably make for a more enjoyable gaming experience for most other players.[/QUOTE]

Calling quickscoping an exploit is like calling cooking nades an exploit. It is something that takes some time to figure out and I believe that it has been used in about every game that doesn’t have it automatically unscope. Quickscoping has a few advatanges: You don’t need to be scoped the whole time meaning you can move at normal speed until firing, and it allows you to be able to switch to pistol to finish of a kill without the delay. If this was a glitch/exploit you might think the people at the top would have done something? Snipers in RL work at a distance, but you have to remember that this is a GAME and about every game I know of has had people using sniper rifles in such a way, although it isn’t nearly as easy as you make it sound. Anyone with the least bit of aim can use sniper rifles to some affect in a pub as they basically run right into it or don’t attempt to avoid being killed either way; Reference–> http://www.xfire.com/video/193e6d/. This is why the real thing to blame is the fact that almost 99% of all QW players who did not play Q3 or Wolf:ET do not know how to move. You rarely see people with adequate aim using sniper rifle when facing equally skilled players b/c it is very easy to dodge if you can strafe and mix up your movement. Aim is without a doubt not the only skill in any game, but I would say its a pretty darn important one. Aim, movement, and player smarts are three areas which lead to becoming a better player and are considered equally important by most. I do not know of any game that only requires aim except maybe one of those “pin the tail on the president” flash ads… Brink has a new form of movement which seems like it would make it much harder for sniping in any case, but I am sure someone would eventually figure out how to be as effective as anyone else if given the time to perfect it. The point is that on a level playing field sniping is only used in an effective way by the cream of the crop. They are going to kill you no matter what, so why try and dismantle parts of the game to feel more secure. God knows that sniping is the only feature of QW that still gives me some sort of enjoyment, especially when people claim that 1 shot kills are not possible and that quickscoping is an exploit because they can’t do it. There is a reason why COD clones are so popular… because they are easy.

(Apoc) #43

[quote=Stroggafier;210551]Aim is one skill in FPS games, but not the only skill. Some games have elevated aiming to the top of the skils list, intentionally or otherwise. I’d guess that developers are finding, as has been expressed here, that the result is fewer players find those games fun.

Brink has moved off of aim as the most imortant skill. Instead, Brink has elevated movement, tactics, play variety, and cooperation, to name just a few other game aspects. This re-emphasis creates opportunities for such things as SMART, use of controllers, no need for multiple hitboxes, etc.

I believe this approach will reduce the advantage to players that have focused on superior aiming skill and will probably make for a more enjoyable gaming experience for most other players.[/quote]

If there arent multiple hitbox’s i will literally be crying.

Most of the players with superior aim, have been playing a long time, on a lot of fps’s and will almost definately also have superior tactics. Aim should be the highest priority as it allows players who are newer and dont know the maps as well or arent tactically minded to still have a chance off killing people, since aim can be passed on game to game, whereas tactics are sort of re-learnt with new games due to the new possibilities.

Also all this talk of exploits, etqw had multiple patch’s and was aware of the possibility to quick scope and did not change it…because…its not an exploit.

In fact this works nicely with the discussion as quick scoping is a very good TACTIC to employ to allow the sniper to be useful indoors. Just like strafejumping has been accepted in games and isnt a exploit, its a TACTIC, and crouching to avoid spread is a TACTIC. And by the sounds of these forums everyone is tactic mad, so i cant see what anyones problem is.

(signofzeta) #44

Well considering the supposed size of Brink maps, I don’t think you would want to use a sniper anyway. Wolfenstein never had a dedicated sniper anyway, just a bolt action rifle with one zoom, as much as the scope in the MP43. Imagine the ET FG42 scope attached to the K43 or Garand.

Now, if we did have a sniper here, it wouldn’t be zoomable anyway. Even if the sniper in ETQW can be used in close combat, it wasn’t designed with that in mind, it was the players who made that strategy up. Now for Brink Snipers, if the maps are so small, any long range weapon would be useless, because the medium range ones would do a better job anyway.

Have you even tried to zoom in with a sniper and see the nasal cavity of the player model just because you are so close to the guy? Or have you tried zooming in and you are already looking at the other end of the map? If the maps are that crowded or small, there is no reason to have a sniper.

In RTCW, for those crowded city maps, have you ever seen anyone use the mauser?

The question I ask you is, do you only want sniper because you are so used to the older game having it, that this newer game feels naked without it? Or do you really feel that this game needs a sniper?

The same question goes to grenade binds and everything else that is in the older game in the series, but changed in the newer game.

(INF3RN0) #45

[QUOTE=Apoc;210574]If there arent multiple hitbox’s i will literally be crying.

Most of the players with superior aim, have been playing a long time, on a lot of fps’s and will almost definately also have superior tactics. Aim should be the highest priority as it allows players who are newer and dont know the maps as well or arent tactically minded to still have a chance off killing people, since aim can be passed on game to game, whereas tactics are sort of re-learnt with new games due to the new possibilities.

Also all this talk of exploits, etqw had multiple patch’s and was aware of the possibility to quick scope and did not change it…because…its not an exploit.

In fact this works nicely with the discussion as quick scoping is a very good TACTIC to employ to allow the sniper to be useful indoors. Just like strafejumping has been accepted in games and isnt a exploit, its a TACTIC, and crouching to avoid spread is a TACTIC. And by the sounds of these forums everyone is tactic mad, so i cant see what anyones problem is.[/QUOTE]

This is a good explanation. In a QW context: Aim gets you kills, tactics win maps. I think that this is a fair trade and adds adequate balance. Multiple hit boxes is a MUST. If there aren’t multiple hit boxes I might reconsider buying this game…

(INF3RN0) #46

[QUOTE=signofzeta;210575]Well considering the supposed size of Brink maps, I don’t think you would want to use a sniper anyway. Wolfenstein never had a dedicated sniper anyway, just a bolt action rifle with one zoom, as much as the scope in the MP43. Imagine the ET FG42 scope attached to the K43 or Garand.

Now, if we did have a sniper here, it wouldn’t be zoomable anyway. Even if the sniper in ETQW can be used in close combat, it wasn’t designed with that in mind, it was the players who made that strategy up. Now for Brink Snipers, if the maps are so small, any long range weapon would be useless, because the medium range ones would do a better job anyway.

Have you even tried to zoom in with a sniper and see the nasal cavity of the player model just because you are so close to the guy? Or have you tried zooming in and you are already looking at the other end of the map? If the maps are that crowded or small, there is no reason to have a sniper.

In RTCW, for those crowded city maps, have you ever seen anyone use the mauser?

The question I ask you is, do you only want sniper because you are so used to the older game having it, that this newer game feels naked without it? Or do you really feel that this game needs a sniper?

The same question goes to grenade binds and everything else that is in the older game in the series, but changed in the newer game.[/QUOTE]

I think that a sniper limited to mid-range combat would add to the tactical mix. Snipers in a tactical sense most commonly tend to be stationary. They are good at breaking up stationary crossfires and making another team play less aggressively. An example would be having a guy at a top of a hill firing down so that only his head is visible. The spread dynamics of a game tend to make it harder for you to hit the less exposed guy at the top, which is where a sniper comes in handy. This is the same situation when you have someone on level ground who is abusing physical cover. I do agree that having a sniper 100 miles away from you can make it annoying to kill them, but having them within your range will force them to have to be effective enough to stick with it.

(Stroggafier) #47

@signofzeta, you hit my point square on. The paradym of aim as king of FPS is perhaps shifting in order to encompass a larger fan base. This is a good thing. Folks who think they are “cream of the crop” because of their aiming skills take note. The times, they may be a changing.

(Stroggafier) #48

@signofzeta, you hit my point square on. The paradym of aim as king of FPS is perhaps shifting in order to encompass a larger fan base. This is a good thing. Folks who think they are “cream of the crop” because of their aiming skills take note.

I expect aim based FPS games will be around a long time, they just will not have the same player base as broader skill based FPS games.

The times, they may be a changing.

(DarkangelUK) #49

I think the issue that some have with quick scoping is that you’re taking advantage of the increased accuracy during the animation. If the accuracy was only increased when you were fully into the scope, then it would be a completely different matter. But then you get into the very boring debate of realism vs game… and no one ever wins those.

I’m still laughing at quickscope being compared to cooking nades :smiley:

(INF3RN0) #50

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;210588]@signofzeta, you hit my point square on. The paradym of aim as king of FPS is perhaps shifting in order to encompass a larger fan base. This is a good thing. Folks who think they are “cream of the crop” because of their aiming skills take note.

I expect aim based FPS games will be around a long time, they just will not have the same player base as broader skill based FPS games.

The times, they may be a changing.[/QUOTE]

Please read the whole thing. You can ask any of the top players in any game, which most abandoned QW years ago, and almost all of the time aim is not a priority. Take a look at etTV matches and you don’t see just really good aim, you see really good team work and people playing a game to its limits. I have seen a group with better aim lose to a group with better teamwork and tactics. I have seen a player with better aim lose to a player with better movement. It’s a combination of a number of things, but most people blame it on aim. I am sure anyone can hit someone standing still, but then that’s probably why you see the guys with “aim” moving more than anyone else. Being able to aim at a moving target while moving yourself are interdependent for success. I am just trying to imagine what kind of FPS would be produced on the lines your speaking. “Whoever fails to complete this puzzle while spinning in a circle will die…” The best thing to do is to add more movement and more tactical elements to a game, so that it is equally important (although it usually is). Simplifying it or removing it all together is just lame.

(shirosae) #51

[QUOTE=Apples;210504]Regarding brink, maps seems ultra focused so no need to snipers, but plz plz plz do make the weapon accurate…
As its the “game of the moment” I allways compare to bc2 regarding the spread, and a too huge spread is just a “no-no” situation. I’m not asking for ET spread, but not too much plz or the aim is quickly replaced by “spray n pray”

Peace[/QUOTE]

The problem we have is that appropriate spread varies depending on the skill of the players. The optimum spread for scrubs is always going to be much higher than it is for people who are actually good at the game.

So the solution is to add es_aimstyle type commands and let servers pick & choose, and have some detailed information about server settings on the server browser?

Regarding no sniping weapons - actually I think Brink might be a good place to try making a bona-fide mid-range sniper weapon to kinda recreate the close quarters sniping from ETQW. Make the scoping out much smoother so ironsights don’t slow you down by stuttering in and out of play, and you could end up with a pretty fun and different style of play, especially if you tie it into covops sneaky stuff.

For the people who can’t be bothered to read this:

(INF3RN0) #52

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;210591]

I’m still laughing at quickscope being compared to cooking nades :D[/QUOTE]

Point is that it is part of the game and anyone can do it, though it requires some practice to be used correctly. Haven’t you seen the guy who throws his nade immediately and waits for someone to run into it. If the sniper rifle shot as fast as a GPMG by switching weapons in a certain order or something then maybe that would be considered an exploit or serious glitch. There are plenty of methods that increase the effectiveness of weapons in similar ways, but sniper rifles are singled out because of the potential insta kill. Guess what guys, they have one of the lowest RoF for a reason… And while we are at it what was with that stroy up feature? God mode haxorz?

(Ragoo) #53

[QUOTE=shirosae;210595]
For the people who can’t be bothered to read this:[/QUOTE]

Haha, this one picture explains everything I meant to say so good :slight_smile: Thanks shirosae :wink:

(tokamak) #54

:rolleyes:

Yeah they would have to be part of the game in order to be exploits…

(Apoc) #55

[quote=Stroggafier;210588]@signofzeta, you hit my point square on. The paradym of aim as king of FPS is perhaps shifting in order to encompass a larger fan base. This is a good thing. Folks who think they are “cream of the crop” because of their aiming skills take note.

I expect aim based FPS games will be around a long time, they just will not have the same player base as broader skill based FPS games.

The times, they may be a changing.[/quote]

All fps games are aim based.
Hence the name

I challenge you to find a non aim based fps with a larger player base than aim based fps…tbh im just interested to see what you consider a non aim fps…

(Apoc) #56

That picture above is utter genious and completely right

(tokamak) #57

No it’s bullshit, that thing counts for any exploit.

(Stroggafier) #58

@Apoc, whats a non-aim fps? Do you mean an fps game where other elements besides aim are important?

The theory implied by @shirosae is based on equating experience with in-close aim and being a good player with being able to aim well. This is indeed the older paradym that may however be up for revision or at least some spinal adjustment. If that curve is meant to represent “learning” then it is flipped upside down, as learning plateaus over time and does not increase exponentially like that.

(Apoc) #59

It does? i swear that makes no sense at all dude. One example?

(tokamak) #60

Every exploit, which quake wars luckily doesn’t to many off have can be done by anyone if learned and trained well.

Saying that it takes time to learn is no excuse for an exploit, it just forces people to waste their time on something that’s basically a broken game mechanic.