Smart

[montheponies]

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;380392]seems chris got it and you didn’t

damn…[/QUOTE]

well as long as chris get’s it everything’s right with the world…

[BioSnark]

SMART with some dodge moves, less automation and higher speed (or in a game with non-ballistic projectile weapons?) would definitely be something I’d miss. Best if SD draws a lot off their Brink experience to retain and improve the system in their next project, hopefully not saddled with the Brink IP baggage.

Wish u could wallhop up to area’s the devs nvr intented plyrs to go

Wish devs had intended players to wallhop up more areas

[INF3RN0]

If devs never intended players to go there, why would the game allow you to wallhop to them? It’s kind of like saying, “I wish my parents would let me do things that they would never let me do.”

You could do a lot of things in the other games that “weren’t intended”. The problem with Brink is that every single Smart-able thing is incredibly obvious as being put there. It’s a bit more enjoyable when it’s not so in your face easy, and you actually have the opportunity to achieve tough feats that allow you to cut some time off your travel. Example; the smart-able path is not an obscure set of things, the course is laid right out in front of you and has been tested hundreds of times by developers; versus; a lot of smart-able objects, buildings, etc that allow a player the opportunity to make their own paths instead of being limited to just one.

[tokamak]

Oh right yeah, let’s make the heavy class completely useless altogether.

[BioSnark]

So give them all the smart moves and just have them slower and a bigger target.

[montheponies]

You could do a lot of things in the other games that “weren’t intended”. The problem with Brink is that every single Smart-able thing is incredibly obvious as being put there. It’s a bit more enjoyable when it’s not so in your face easy, and you actually have the opportunity to achieve tough feats that allow you to cut some time off your travel. Example; the smart-able path is not an obscure set of things, the course is laid right out in front of you and has been tested hundreds of times by developers; versus; a lot of smart-able objects, buildings, etc that allow a player the opportunity to make their own paths instead of being limited to just one.

completely agree - a progressive approach to movement in fps would be the combination of smart with a higher skilled requirement (timing/mouse control) for those obscure and perhaps unintended paths (provided they don’t break the map).

[Thundermuffin]

Oh right yeah, let’s make the heavy class completely useless altogether.

Doing what Biosnark said would work, but let’s be honest the 3 different body types are useless anyways. They should have just made it like ET:QW where the weapon you were holding was what determined how fast you moved (without strafejumping). That system really can’t be beat as everyone can be the same speed (running with knife/pistol), but you also have to think about “what if someone is around this corner and all I have is a knife out?” That makes the player make a big decision, because if there is no one around that corner and he pulled out his GPMG he’s now wasted precious time; however, if someone was around there then he is completely prepared for it and has potentially just made a clutch kill that could win the game for his team.

[tokamak]

Bull****, the bodytypes are brilliant. Different permanent selections of weapons at your disposal and different freedom of movement still added a lot of depth to this game. But the balance between them is inelegant at best and to then suggest that light guys need to be pandered to even more is just insane.

[Thundermuffin]

Bull****, the bodytypes are brilliant. Different permanent selections of weapons at your disposal and different freedom of movement still added a lot of depth to this game. But the balance between them is inelegant at best and to then suggest that light guys need to be pandered to even more is just insane.

No they are not brilliant at all. If you want to see how body types should have worked you should look at TF2. It works so much better there, because the game isn’t designed to have some fancy movement system that only 1 body type can actually take advantage of. That game was based around having different body types moving at different speeds with ways to catch up to the other classes (rocket jumping, sticky jumping, and GRU for the 3 slow classes). You can press F and hitch a ride with a light in Brink, but if no one else is around you’re screwed.

If you notice, no one said the lights should get any more treatment, but that the SMART system should actually have required skill (and been open to all 3 body types) and not have been laid out in front of you. There are very little spots in Brink where you can do a really great SMART move without boxes being specifically placed there. There are no hidden jumps like the jump to the roof of those buildings in Ark in ETQW. There’s tons of those jumps the devs probably didn’t intend for us to do, but we can and they didn’t break the game. Even if they did intend for them to be done, they aren’t as obvious as they are in Brink where there just happen to be all these boxes lined up right in front of a balcony.

Had the game let every class do all of the moves and only use the body types to influence weapon types, basic running speed, and health (but not to a major degree, more in line with what they did with ETQW where there was maybe 20ish points of difference, but you’d still die by 3 headshots) maybe the idea would have been “brilliant.”

[INF3RN0]

Doing what Biosnark said would work, but let’s be honest the 3 different body types are useless anyways. They should have just made it like ET:QW where the weapon you were holding was what determined how fast you moved (without strafejumping). That system really can’t be beat as everyone can be the same speed (running with knife/pistol), but you also have to think about “what if someone is around this corner and all I have is a knife out?” That makes the player make a big decision, because if there is no one around that corner and he pulled out his GPMG he’s now wasted precious time; however, if someone was around there then he is completely prepared for it and has potentially just made a clutch kill that could win the game for his team.

I agree. This method made much more sense than body types. The freedom to change throughout a game also allows for the player to adapt and really feel less constrained to playing the game in just one manner. Plus HP was balanced with class selection as well, which makes the most sense. Body types are just a neato artifice that makes for a more personal connection with your avatar, but there are much more sensible methods of going about it all.

[tokamak]

The freedom to change throughout a game also allows for the player to adapt and really feel less constrained to playing the game in just one manner.

And thus less forced to draw on his creative facilities in order to improvise. You guys just want to keep the game more bland. Remove spread, remove ability restrictions, everything needs to be at your disposal at any time. Just level the entire field to prevent anyone from figuring you out and actually win a tactical advantage over you. As long as you can show off your point and click skills the rest can go to hell.

[Thundermuffin]

And thus less forced to draw on his creative facilities in order to improvise. You guys just want to keep the game more bland. Remove spread, remove ability restrictions, everything needs to be at your disposal at any time. Just level the entire field to prevent anyone from figuring you out and actually win a tactical advantage over you. As long as you can show off your point and click skills the rest can go to hell.

You really are starting to act just like wolfnemesis. You sound foolish saying that having a game that requires actual, real skill instead of one that requires pushing buttons and spamming inaccurate weapons is bland. Every game should come down to how good you are, both as a solo player and as a team player. That is why games like CS1.6 are still played, but you can’t find over a few hundred people playing Brink.

[tokamak]

I’m not defending Brink, but there’s just a really obvious agenda in trying to revert the shooter genre back a decade around here. What games like ETQW do right is that they suit multiple playstyles. You can outsmart a great gunner and you can outgun a smart guy. By taking the weight from choices you take the edge from those who like to actually think tactically in the same way taking the accuracy from guns takes the edge of those who can aim. And to that I must stress there are far more parameters than just accuracy, in games that actually make these things matter, like Raven Shield, people who know their weapons and treat them in the right way have an edge over those who don’t understand the weaponry (even though they got incredible aiming skills).

So there you go, my preferred playground is one where multiple specialists can duke it out in the same field, you on the other hand, want a game that is specifically tailored to what you think you’re good at so you’ve got the best chance in your very own little pissing contest. Bravo.

[Thundermuffin]

[QUOTE=tokamak;380446]I’m not defending Brink, but there’s just a really obvious agenda in trying to revert the shooter genre back a decade around here. What games like ETQW do right is that they suit multiple playstyles. You can outsmart a great gunner and you can outgun a smart guy. By taking the weight from choices you take the edge from those who like to actually think tactically in the same way taking the accuracy from guns takes the edge of those who can aim. And to that I must stress there are far more parameters than just accuracy, in games that actually make these things matter, like Raven Shield, people who know their weapons and treat them in the right way have an edge over those who don’t understand the weaponry (even though they got incredible aiming skills).

So there you go, my preferred playground is one where multiple specialists can duke it out in the same field, you on the other hand, want a game that is specifically tailored to what you think you’re good at so you’ve got the best chance in your very own little pissing contest. Bravo.[/QUOTE]

A decade ago shooters were fun to play and required you to actually put in some time to be good at them, we had SDKs to make things we wanted, and the developers didn’t make us pay for DLC. Why wouldn’t you want to have at least a couple developers making games/series like that?

We never said take away the thinking part of playing games. If you actually read my post (#47), you’ll see that I talk about the tactical element and how that makes you make a big decision on speed versus ability to fight back. Do you think when we say “skill” we only mean aiming? That only thing you focused on in your whole post was our aiming abilities, as if that is the only thing one can mean when they say “requires skill.” Strafejumping, pulling off strats, basic movement system etc., all require just as much skill and are equally as important to me. If one of these things is lackluster, however, it really brings everything else down.

Sorry, you’re wrong as I don’t want a game specifically tailored to what I’m good at; all I want is a game that has everyone on an even playing field (no stupid buffs, weapon attachments that mess with damage/accuracy, etc.), but I don’t want the game to hinder great players or help crappy players. In other words, I want a game where the better player always wins, unless they make a mistake or the other player just works on getting better. I don’t think that’s specifically tailoring a game to me as lots of people want games like that.

[VG_JUNKY]

Wish devs had intended players to wallhop up more areas

Thats kindof what i meant

[INF3RN0]

And thus less forced to draw on his creative facilities in order to improvise. You guys just want to keep the game more bland. Remove spread, remove ability restrictions, everything needs to be at your disposal at any time. Just level the entire field to prevent anyone from figuring you out and actually win a tactical advantage over you. As long as you can show off your point and click skills the rest can go to hell.

You just want to up the tactical meter for your own liking. You think your smarter than most pro-aimers and you don’t think it pays off enough, but I think you would be quite surprised the amount of tactical depth people put into these games along with their ability to aim. If you think people that were really good at the ET games were winning just because of their aim and the simplicity of the game, your incredibly wrong. I like clean and simple balance in my fps, no extra bs. I play rts games for that other stuff. I can aim and think in an fps, and I can reaaaaaaaaaaaally think in an rts. Even in a game like Starcraft I can think my way to Diamond League, but the apm performance keeps me there, just like aim in an fps game will. I find that games that add too much restrictive complexity slow way down in pace and experience tons of balance issues. ET games have a solid system and there’s no need to over-complicate it just for the sake of throwing in a bunch of ideas for extra tactical value, when there’s no guarantee they will even be good for the game cough Brink.

[tokamak]

You just want to up the tactical meter for your own liking. You think your smarter than most pro-aimers and you don’t think it pays off enough,

Ha you can’t play that same game. If someone’s truly cognitively excellent then he should be a match for great tacticians. I like that mix, that melting pot of varied skillsets. The more diverse the merrier. I just can’t stand people wanting to flatten everything out, preferably up their street, there are already countless shooters that cater to them. Go play those and leave the games that reward more than pointing and clicking alone.

[INF3RN0]

Ha you can’t play that same game. If someone’s truly cognitively excellent then he should be a match for great tacticians. I like that mix, that melting pot of varied skillsets. The more diverse the merrier. I just can’t stand people wanting to flatten everything out, preferably up their street, there are already countless shooters that cater to them. Go play those and leave the games that reward more than pointing and clicking alone.

ET games already have tons of tactical depth… the games the way they have developed so far are far from flat. I like the fact that on the highest skill levels of aim, you still see these things come into play and they are usually the most highly developed strategies and tactics. You just give off the vibe that the balance between aim and tactics need to be shifted more towards the tactical side, which I find completely unnecessary for said reasons. ET games are far from point click shooters, but they don’t require the extra saturation of something like body types or fixed ability crap. I would lean more towards expanding classes/class abilities and weapon types, or something of that nature. Even new objective types. I’ve always played more tactically than aim reliant individually and with my teams, and every person who favors aim also values the tactical side of ET games with the same fervor. One-sided class counters, body types, limited content, etc do not belong in ET. They already had a great tactical balance system… just sayn.

[tokamak]

Here’s the difference between you and me. You want a game moving to the point where it fits you, I want a game that celebrates different people which happens to include me. I’m not here to haggle over where the balance between the current game and my personal preference should lie. I’m here to see different styles meet each other. Spread is an important part in a shooter, but there are far more ways to go about it than moving the sliding scale between high accuracy and low accuracy. There’s a far bigger dynamic going on here than just the average spread. I don’t give a **** about the average spread. I want to see spread be more sensitive to what a player is doing. Twitch players can work with that sensitivity and tactical players can think with that sensitivity, best would be someone that is capable of both. A thinking gamer will be able to anticipate a situation in advance and stack up the advantages in favour of him. A twitch gamer will, because of the high spread fidelity be able to let it work in his favour on the fly. This will create scenes where players are being outwitted as well as scenes where players are simply outaimed, depending on the situation and the player’s relative skill.

Some encounters seem one-sided to you because you’re seeing short-therm situations. You didn’t see a big guy working his ass off to get in the right position at the right time, you only saw him butchering a group of players within seconds. You didn’t see a light guy stalking a big guy, patiently waiting for the moment he’s alone, you see him clobbering the lights out of him and call it one-sided.

[DonkeyDong]

toka… be quiet. you’re bad and everyone thinks so.