Skill Ceiling: Heavy Vs. Light Bodytype

(Beermachine) #41

While it’s impossible to make any definitive calls, a lot will depend on the mechanics of movement and shooting. How fast strafe speeds are, accuracy on the move, if sprinting and shooting are possible with any degree of accuracy at short-mid range like in RtCW / ET, etc.

(Shadowcat) #42

I attribute the popularity of lights to the fact that many people are attracted to Brink solely because of the SMART system, and all of those players want to use it to the fullest.

I personally plan to use all 3 and see what I’m actually good at, but my plan is to be a heavy medic, because i have grand visions of keeping the team alive while on the front lines. Not sure if i can live up to that role, but i like the idea.

As far as actual skill ceilings, i would agree that the light bodytype allows for muck more skill growth, simply because mistakes as a light player mean you die. Heavy players have the luxury of being able to make larger mistakes and still survive, as long as they aren’t in a situation where they cant get to cover soon enough.

While lights may REQUIRE more skill to be useful, that doesn’t necessarily mean they will be better or more useful than a heavy with equal skill. A skillful heavy could easily form the backbone of an entire team; leading the front lines, pushing back the enemy team, keeping his own team from being gunned down.

To make a (possibly offensive) comparison to RPGs: you have the agile rogue, capable of running circles around the enemy and killing people without taking any damage; and then the warrior tank, keeping the rest of the team alive by simultaneously being a shield for teammates and spearhead of the offensive.

(Jess Alon) #43

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;270418]I attribute the popularity of lights to the fact that many people are attracted to Brink solely because of the SMART system, and all of those players want to use it to the fullest.

I personally plan to use all 3 and see what I’m actually good at, but my plan is to be a heavy medic, because i have grand visions of keeping the team alive while on the front lines. Not sure if i can live up to that role, but i like the idea.

As far as actual skill ceilings, i would agree that the light bodytype allows for muck more skill growth, simply because mistakes as a light player mean you die. Heavy players have the luxury of being able to make larger mistakes and still survive, as long as they aren’t in a situation where they cant get to cover soon enough.

While lights may REQUIRE more skill to be useful, that doesn’t necessarily mean they will be better or more useful than a heavy with equal skill. A skillful heavy could easily form the backbone of an entire team; leading the front lines, pushing back the enemy team, keeping his own team from being gunned down.

To make a (possibly offensive) comparison to RPGs: you have the agile rogue, capable of running circles around the enemy and killing people without taking any damage; and then the warrior tank, keeping the rest of the team alive by simultaneously being a shield for teammates and spearhead of the offensive.[/QUOTE]

Does that makes the mediums the hot mage chick?

(Shadowcat) #44

I think the comparison kinda falls apart at that point. Mediums lose most of their definition as a bodytype by avoiding the extremes. I think they start to be defined more by their class than their size at that point.

Call them the basic soldier, the faceless majority, rank and file, red shirts, or whatever you like. I personally think that despite all of the polls to the contrary, that the medium bodytype will be the most common, chosen do to its lack of any huge weakness. They will be the main part of most teams, and important to any basic strategy.

(Otto) #45

as touched on briefly before
If one masters how to play a light body type, those inherent skills will transfer to the heavy, the same is not true about one who masters the heavy. It is unlikely a heavy will have any unique attributes that require more skill.
Skill= Twitch
In fps games Twitch is the universal power king. No mater how smart or sneaky or powerful some one is, with out a sufficient twitch skill level any player will be at a disadvantage regardless of the archetype. That is why they made 3 grades of archetype, heavy grants people with low twitch to still be useful, and light allows players with high twitch to flex their power.
In short
Heavy is a archetype that is granted a handicap with passive safeguards, raw power to supplement a players lower accuracy, and high stamina to stay a live when someone lacks the reaction time to dodge, allowing people with low-average twitch to stay in the fight.
Light archetype is a class with no passive safeguards, allowing a player maximum control in power but also has to aware of ones manually control one’s safety.

A better way of looking at it is the foundation of archetypes is not the Medium or Heavy, but rather the Light. If every one is the Light, players with the High twitch are going to always have the advantage, the Medium or Heavy are intended to help give back to the player with lower twitch to have the advantage atleast some of the time.

The problem that can come from the archetype system in previous games, is that players with a high skill/twitch are given the tools to be even more deadly. When a player with low skill/twitch can not take advantage of these same tools. Sadly, skill will improve with time to a certain extent, but twitch is often capped due to our individual nature as unique people.

I have a above average skill but balance twitch, in most games, sometimes the only advantage I can bring to the team is planning a head, laying traps, forcing enemy’s into choke points, etc. If I am singled out by a twitch player, it wont mater how smart I am playing I am likely to die if I can’t get to safety or find teammates for backup.

I imagine there are going to be some jobs in Brink that can only be performed by a heavy, Tanking for example can not be supplemented by twitch dodging, like to push in close enough to destroy a powerful turret. Or staying confined to a objective to capture it like a CP.

I am an avid TF2 player and see how other players who have experience with the Scout and Heavy in TF2 would be concerned in this massive contrast in skill ceiling/skill floor presenting it’s self in Brink. In TF2 the “Scout” dosen’t really play the roll of what I would call a Scout, “reconnaissance, sabotage, support, distraction.” Would be a more accurate description, not the TF2 offensive dyno that it can be in the right hands.
As stated before Brink is not TF2, It will have similarities but completely different as well.
The Operative I would imagine would benefit the most from a light archetype, but it’s roll is not that of a scout. Even if the solider can be made with a light archetype I feel confident its not going to be a problem.
I am hopefully optimistic the contrast between archetypes will not be large enough to cause any real issues, no more then having a team stacked with comp players vs pubers.

(Shadowcat) #46

@Otto:
You raise some interesting points, but it seems to me like there are some problems with your argument.

You claim that skills learned as a light translate well to playing as a heavy while the opposite isn’t true. I claim the opposite.

The main skills involved for any player are Movement, Aim, Reaction, Awareness, and positioning.

Light players tend to focus on movement, obviously. It is important for them to duck and weave, dodge and get behind. Movement for agile players is a skill necessary to get good positioning, find flanking routes, get behind the enemy, find cover at a moments notice. Movement is one of the last concerns of a heavy, and this skill does not transfer well to them.

Heavy players need to focus on in-game awareness. They need to know where they are, what escape routes they can get to, and where the enemy likely is. That is because they do not have the speed needed to get to cover in many situations. This means that they need to be in or near tactical positions before the firefight even starts. They also need to know what they can take on and when they should start backing off early in a fight. Lights can make up for a weakness here with fast reactions, ducking back the moment a firefight turns sour. However, awareness learned as a heavy can easily be used to the advantage of a light player, allowing them to react even faster.

Aim and reaction are of near equal importance to both. Lights are defined by their ability to react to a situation the moment the come up, as mistakes mean death. They need to be able to aim effectively in order to take higher health enemies out with weaker weapons. Heavies on the other hand need to be able to be able to kill people at a moments notice in order to be successful. In order to stay alive they need to eliminate targets the moment they appear. You may be able to go toe to toe with any single person, but if you run into a group after a rusher has whittled down your health, you have no escape. Aim or reaction you learn as either bodytype will benefit you as the other. No matter your bodytyle, the faster you can kill the enemy, the better you will do.

In general, fast reaction, improvised tactics tend to mesh well with light players. Heavy players will need to be more cool headed and calculating. Lights need to know when to run, and be able to get out alive. Heavies fates are pretty much decided once a battle starts.

(Jess Alon) #47

I think they are trying to say the developers put heavies in the game so retarded kids could play with people like them who have l33t skillz and still feel good about themselves. There’s no skill involved obviously.

PLEASE pardon my massive quantities of sarcasm as I retch over the light bodytype fanboy mania that is taking place.

Just say the light fits your playstyle. Don’t say the heavy is for weakminded idiot players who suck. All you’re proving is that you’re insecure and you are compensating for something.

(Shadowcat) #48

To compare to TF2 as many others have: Yes, the scout is an offensive powerhouse when played by someone with skill. But surely even the best scouts have run into heavies who, no matter how sneaky the scout gets, always seems to be able to quickly react and shoot them out of the air.

This is a result of a heavy with good awareness, aim, and reaction speed. It is a different style to be sure, but there is always room to improve with either style.

The fact that there are less heavies able to counter good scouts than there are good scouts seems to imply to me that being a good heavy may actually be harder.

(Bridger) #49

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;270433]To compare to TF2 as many others have: Yes, the scout is an offensive powerhouse when played by someone with skill. But surely even the best scouts have run into heavies who, no matter how sneaky the scout gets, always seems to be able to quickly react and shoot them out of the air.

This is a result of a heavy with good awareness, aim, and reaction speed. It is a different style to be sure, but there is always room to improve with either style.

The fact that there are less heavies able to counter good scouts than there are good scouts seems to imply to me that being a good heavy may actually be harder.[/QUOTE]

No, it implies that heavies are less useful for the overall goal of the game. Scouts can counter other scouts AND every other class in the game. Heavies can only really help stop scouts, and they are too slow to move with the team.

(Jess Alon) #50

I’ve seen heavies mow down everyone around them with the help of the medic. What are you even talking about?

(Shadowcat) #51

He’s talking more about competitive play, i believe, where most of the players are scouts, demos, soldiers, or medics.

(Bridger) #52

Nobody uses heavies in competitive games because they cannot keep up with the rest of the team (which is usually composed of 2 scouts, 2 soldiers (who rocketjump to keep up), a demoman (who sticky-jumps) and a medic (who is inherently fast).

In a pub game with a larger number of players Heavies can be better, but not in the 6v6 leagues where speed is the key.

(Jess Alon) #53

[QUOTE=Bridger;270440]Nobody uses heavies in competitive games because they cannot keep up with the rest of the team (which is usually composed of 2 scouts, 2 soldiers (who rocketjump to keep up), a demoman (who sticky-jumps) and a medic (who is inherently fast).

In a pub game with a larger number of players Heavies can be better, but not in the 6v6 leagues where speed is the key.[/QUOTE]

You realize that not everyone plays in league play 24/7 nor is training for league play?

Some people are “casual gamers” who just enjoy playing for a couple hours once a week or so.

You also realize that this isn’t TF3? And there might be a lot of objectives where speed really isn’t the big deal but just tactics and teamwork?

And that some people might actually enjoy playing a game at a slightly slower pace then you?

And that doesn’t make you any better then them as a person or as a gamer or as an anything. And if you think it does you’re an ass.

I love good competition but your version of fun isn’t everyone else’s to be honest.

And your approach to an argument is condescending. You’ve got in your head what you think and you think that’s what it is and you seem to have no other empathy for the other side of the issue.

Which is a common theme on this forum.

(Bridger) #54

Of course, but my understanding is that if a game is balanced with competitive players in mind, it will also be balanced for the casual players who don’t play as often. The same cannot be said for the reverse (the casual players will not find the “broken” parts of the game because they do not play it as often and avoid “cheap” tactics, so those broken tactics never get fixed, leaving a broken game for the competitive players).

You also realize that this isn’t TF3? And there might be a lot of objectives where speed really isn’t the big deal but just tactics and teamwork?

Of course, that was simply a responce to someone who misunderstood my meaning in a comparison to TF2 a long ways back. I’m not saying that heavies in brink will be less valuable because they are slow (though that may be the case, I cannot comment because I haven’t played it).

And that some people might actually enjoy playing a game at a slightly slower pace then you?

Sure. Seems like we’re in agreement on a lot here?

And that doesn’t make you any better then them as a person or as a gamer or as an anything. And if you think it does you’re an ass.

Now I’m confused, what do you think I am saying? I have pointed out the following:

  1. Lights rely on the same skills as heavies + dodging/manuvering.

  2. This means that Lights have a higher skill ceiling.

  3. This means that there will be some imbalance between the two extremes. Either Heavies will be powerful against new light players, or experienced lights will be very powerful against heavies. Or maybe the devs will wind up skirting the middle ground here and it won’t be noticeable.

(Shadowcat) #55

I gotta say, jess, you really remind me of a quote by ben franklin in the john adams mini-series.

“I’m an extreme moderate, Mr. Rutledge. I believe anybody not in favor of moderation and compromise ought to be castrated. And all this should be sent down to the Parliament…for they seem to need, how shall I put it…stones?”

(Mad Hatter) #56

This thread just reminded me of chozo. Now that guy knew how to play Heavy.

EDIT: Am I allowed to link to a video with dozens upon dozens of F-bombs?

(Jess Alon) #57

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;270449]I gotta say, jess, you really remind me of a quote by ben franklin in the john adams mini-series.

“I’m an extreme moderate, Mr. Rutledge. I believe anybody not in favor of moderation and compromise ought to be castrated. And all this should be sent down to the Parliament…for they seem to need, how shall I put it…stones?”[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what you just told me or if I should thank you. Or walk away ashamed of myself.

Edit: Yeah I’m still confused. I think I need my brain pills.

(Otto) #58

[QUOTE=Bridger;270440]Nobody uses heavies in competitive games because they cannot keep up with the rest of the team (which is usually composed of 2 scouts, 2 soldiers (who rocketjump to keep up), a demoman (who sticky-jumps) and a medic (who is inherently fast).

In a pub game with a larger number of players Heavies can be better, but not in the 6v6 leagues where speed is the key.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.
We are talking about 8v8 in Brink, and a different game play style. Some matches from what I understand will require 1 of each archetype to complete the mission?
I am optimistic that a better comparison to Brink would be Borderlands. If you take the Brick(Heavy) vs the Siren(Light) its more like an alternate fight style.

(LyndonL) #59

Dude seriously WTF? You are one of the biggest fanboys in this thread pro Heavy.

Each body type has its use and benefits and drawbacks. The game is balanced for it. If each body didn’t have a use then it wouldn’t be included.

I want to be medium predominantly since I want my cake and want to eat it too - I want the movement/climbing and I want the big weapons. I will make 2 more characters as each body type so that I can play each when I want to.

Also:

You feel like the heavy is entitled to more than every other body type? Come off it.

(Wraith) #60

[QUOTE=H0RSE;270338]So lights have a higher skill-ceiling because they ave more movement maneuvers that can be mastered?..

It;s a shame there is much more to this game than finding creative ways to move around the map. Both body types require the same amount of skill to master, they just need to master different skills.[/QUOTE]

Here here.

Weird in my mind light will be harder to be a light since you are far more vulnerable.

[QUOTE=Bridger;270384]Lights and heavies share all the skill sets EXCEPT lights rely on maneuverability a lot more. Heavies cannot maneuver as much, they have more health to compensate. But more health doesn’t have an associated skill.

Do you know of a skill that heavies use a lot that lights do not use a lot?[/QUOTE]

Not off handedly but since you play lights and heavies differently I would imagine so.

No I actually like. Heavies get bigger guns and more health they don’t need more pips.