Skill Ceiling: Heavy Vs. Light Bodytype

(DarkangelUK) #21

Tbh the pace could be identical, but they’ll still refute it to the bitter end and say it’s slower another rolleyes moment. My personal reasons for having a light will be for tricking purposes… in fact I can more or less guarantee a lot of my initial time will be spent exploring the maps and seeing just whats possible offline. I played about a year solid purely offline tricking in W:ET.

RE operative: I like the usefulness that W:ET brought to disguises by making it possible for them to open doors usually only accessible by the enemy. A disguised player could sneak in the back door and let everyone else in.

(H0RSE) #22

RE operative: I like the usefulness that W:ET brought to disguises by making it possible for them to open doors usually only accessible by the enemy. A disguised player could sneak in the back door and let everyone else in.

There was always that 1 Axis douchebag on Battery, that would go on the beach and get his clothes stolen. Of course, sometimes the airstrikes would just blow bodies on the beach from 2 miles away…

(Apoc) #23

I think SD have a very good system in place.

I think they have it so you cant unlock the light body type right away, nor the heavy, you start at medium.

Players will play with medium and like it, get used to having that much health, enjoy the weapons etc…

Then when they unlock light they will try it. And alot of people will enjoy a couple of games, but then will be annoyed that they cant take as many bullets and they have less powerful weapons, and i believe the vast majority will switch back to medium.
This is what i think will happen.

I think think the reason people think light will be so popular is because the vast majority of people think that each class has class specific weapons and havent yet grasped the concept that weapons are body type specific instead. Its a new concept and i can see why most people will have to play it to get their head around.
But because of this, most people think that the snipers and smgs etc are light only, and people like playing with snipers and smgs. Once people realise that heavys and mediums can have an assault rifle then a sniper or smg as a secondary (dont know if sniper is possible, may be for heavys) or just have a sniper as primary then they will start picking bodyweights according to how they want to play.

I think it will be pretty eavenly spread out.

I usually play all classes pretty evenly, i sometimes go through phases of one type, but i never stay exclusive to it.

I think in a match i will probably end up switching between all 3 for various situations, should be fun

(H0RSE) #24

I think in a match i will probably end up switching between all 3 for various situations, should be fun

You can’t change body type in-game.

(Bridger) #25

[QUOTE=H0RSE;270338]So lights have a higher skill-ceiling because they ave more movement maneuvers that can be mastered?..

It;s a shame there is much more to this game than finding creative ways to move around the map. Both body types require the same amount of skill to master, they just need to master different skills.[/QUOTE]

Lights and heavies share all the skill sets EXCEPT lights rely on maneuverability a lot more. Heavies cannot maneuver as much, they have more health to compensate. But more health doesn’t have an associated skill.

Do you know of a skill that heavies use a lot that lights do not use a lot?

(Jess Alon) #26

[QUOTE=Bridger;270384]Lights and heavies share all the skill sets EXCEPT lights rely on maneuverability a lot more. Heavies cannot maneuver as much, they have more health to compensate. But more health doesn’t have an associated skill.

Do you know of a skill that heavies use a lot that lights do not use a lot?[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Using the badass big weapons that lights could never hope to carry.

(Bridger) #27

I would argue it is more fun precisely because it has a higher skill ceiling. Mastering dodges and maneuvers with the light that helps you defeat an opponent is very satisfying. It is a challenge! Games are fun when they are challenging, and low skill ceiling is less challenging because it is easier to master.

I’m not trying to argue that the game should have a higher skill ceiling with rocket jumps and bunny-hopping or anything, just trying to point out that there is a clear disparity in the skill ceiling of those two body-types and that will be a nightmare for balance. I can’t come up with any interesting skill to add to the heavy to compensate though :\

(Bridger) #28

That’s the same skill the lights use. it’s moving and aiming with your mouse. The type of weapon does not change the fact that you still are moving your cursor to a spot on the screen and clicking a button at a specific time. Flamethrowers in Wolf, Machine guns in BFBC2, submachine guns in counter-strike, they all have function under the same skill (aiming and shooting). Certainly they have their own eccentricities, but unless assault rifles and machine guns function very differently from submachine guns (as opposed to simply doing more damage and being more accurate) then I’m happy calling it the same skill.

(Shadedluck) #29

[QUOTE=Bridger;270386]I would argue it is more fun precisely because it has a higher skill ceiling. Mastering dodges and maneuvers with the light that helps you defeat an opponent is very satisfying. It is a challenge! Games are fun when they are challenging, and low skill ceiling is less challenging because it is easier to master.

I’m not trying to argue that the game should have a higher skill ceiling with rocket jumps and bunny-hopping or anything, just trying to point out that there is a clear disparity in the skill ceiling of those two body-types and that will be a nightmare for balance. I can’t come up with any interesting skill to add to the heavy to compensate though :[/QUOTE]

War is never balanced. This is why you have to work together.

(Bridger) #30

The question here is: How do you balance the game? Do you weaken the lights so that only people who have mastered them can compete with a heavy (which has less to master?). Or do you make lights slightly more powerful so that a good light will always beat a heavy, but at least a new light player will have a chance?

This was my question in the original post :slight_smile:

(Bridger) #31

We’re not fighting a war, we’re playing a game. An unbalanced game is a broken game, and those are not fun to play unless you house-rule them.

(Jess Alon) #32

You are an idiot.

It’s a matter of scale. A heavy can mantle, slide, and do most of the things the light can do. NOT to the same scale. The light does it faster and more effectively.

The light can point and click… as you say about the heavy. Damage is on the LOW end of the scale. Heavy weapons on the other hand will rape your face FASTER. And with each weapon comes a different strategy.

So it is a matter of scale.

ALSO lights have less skill pips then the heavy. So the heavy medic can heal more people at once then the light medic. Light medic may get there faster but the heavy medic can heal more guys once he is there. You picking up a theme? It’s called balanced gameplay.

(Apoc) #33

:frowning: really? i thought i saw a vid where you could :\

(Bridger) #34

And now we’re one step closer on the path to godwin’s eternal law. Thanks for adding the ad hominem to the thread, it really brings out the color in your personality!

It’s a matter of scale. A heavy can mantle, slide, and do most of the things the light can do. NOT to the same scale. The light does it faster and more effectively.

And thus movement is going to be much more valuable for the light. The light is faster and more maneuverable to help him dodge and avoid attacks, the heavy doesn’t do that, that’s why he gets more health. Since he doesn’t rely on dodging and trick maneuvers, he has a lower skill ceiling.

The light can point and click… as you say about the heavy. Damage is on the LOW end of the scale. Heavy weapons on the other hand will rape your face FASTER. And with each weapon comes a different strategy.

Surely we agree here. Both have to master their arms, but the light ALSO has to master movement to a much higher degree than the heavy does, else his low damage and low health will not let him win against someone who also knows how to aim well.

ALSO lights have less skill pips then the heavy. So the heavy medic can heal more people at once then the light medic. Light medic may get there faster but the heavy medic can heal more guys once he is there. You picking up a theme? It’s called balanced gameplay.

This I didn’t know, but it is besides the point. I’m not arguing that the game is unbalanced (nobody has played it yet). I’m arguing that the light has a higher skill ceiling, and that will pose a problem for balance. I was wondering if there was anything the heavy can do to compensate. Being able to rely on their class abilities more might help some.

(Jess Alon) #35

I don’t really know what I can say to you dude. You hear yourself talking and no one else. It’s not a debate but just a statement by you. There’s plenty of people out there who think lights are superior to all and I think a mixture between the three body types and balancing the classes to the situation at hand is the best approach.

(Bridger) #36

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here.

(Jess Alon) #37

Sorry about the idiot comment. I get a little snippy sometimes… seriously really. But the idea seems to be that Heavies will work well staying in the pack because they can buff all day long. Pairs of lights or maybe a talented medium and a light will make great scouting flanking parties. Good light players will be valuable.

But the heavy’s skill will be akin to the medic in other games. He’s going to have to play smart. He’s going to have to have situational awareness and buff his teammates and always have the right class assigned to him to best attack the situation. He’s going to need to know what heavy weapons work best in what situations. Tight corridors with lots of turns will call for the fast shotgun that only the heavy can carry. Sometimes the heavy will need to use the minigun to pin everyone down and advance his own people in so he can then get in and defend an objective until it blows up. Best in that situation is minigun or grenade launcher and then when he gets inside switch to shotgun as a back up. The heavy can be a walking tank. And it takes a lot of skill to make sure no one takes you out before you secure the objective.

Heavy’s have to have skills too. It’s just more cerebral.

(H0RSE) #38

ALSO lights have less skill pips then the heavy.

I think this was changed. All body types have the same amount now.

And thus movement is going to be much more valuable for the light. The light is faster and more maneuverable to help him dodge and avoid attacks, the heavy doesn’t do that, that’s why he gets more health. Since he doesn’t rely on dodging and trick maneuvers, he has a lower skill ceiling.

And because the heavy lacks the movement abilities of the Light, he has to find ways to make the most of what maneuvers are available to him. This coupled with slower movement, makes the Heavy have a higher skill ceiling…this argument can back and forth forever.

Surely we agree here. Both have to master their arms, but the light ALSO has to master movement to a much higher degree than the heavy does, else his low damage and low health will not let him win against someone who also knows how to aim well.

A Light doesn’t “have” to master movement. He can be just as successful with simple bobbing and weaving maneuvers. Mastering movement alone isn’t going to do **** for you in a firefight, if you don’t have the weapon skills to go with it. And if you excel at weapon skills, you won’t necessarily need to master movement all that much.

(Jess Alon) #39

THAT is retarded. Now I’m not buying a copy. I’m going to rob someone of theirs outside a gamestop on release day.

(Bridger) #40

I agree that heavies will be useful. But I think playing smart applies to all classes.