Seriously, Let's talk about Bushwhacker.

[JJMAJR]

[spoiler][quote=“THUNDA;199400”]@JJMAJR

It’s quite funny fact but turret actually misses when it’s shooting enemy from far range.

It is clearly hit-scan, but it really is able. Because it has its own SPREAD.

Um… it will land all 60DPS at close range, but it starts to miss some shots from medium~ range.

(I’m sorry I have no idea how long the range is.)

It barely hits the target when the enemy is slightly about to pass over the max range.

I had this experience(As THUNDA) enemy turret is shooting me from enough far distance(damn it, still can’t decribe the exact distance. Sorry), but it actually just tickled me. Definitely wasn’t 60 DPS.

I’m quite sure this turret’s own spread system might explains why it is able to land headshots.

So it is hit-scan, it is 100% accurate at close range, but has its own spread, so it gets inaccurate if target goes far.[/quote]
I was talking about giving the turret the ability to dodge bullets, not the player dodging the turret. I guess you would have known that anyways so…[/spoiler]

[spoiler][quote=“EBLIS;199823”][quote=“bizarreRectangle;199814”]…if it actually locks on to someone, the target shouldn’t be able to dodge its bullets.[/quote]

Like almost no one can escape Proxy’s mines.[/quote]

A trap that which could be escaped from is a trap that which would not be a competitive play under any circumstance.

And Proxy’s mines? You complaining about their use as a trap and thinking that they’re inescapable?

You might as well just give Bushwhacker’s turret the complete inability to react to enemies if you want Proxy’s mines to have a bigger window of opportunity for newer players to escape them![/spoiler]

[Lord.Eblis]

[quote=“JJMAJR;200019”][spoiler][quote=“THUNDA;199400”]@JJMAJR

It’s quite funny fact but turret actually misses when it’s shooting enemy from far range.

It is clearly hit-scan, but it really is able. Because it has its own SPREAD.

Um… it will land all 60DPS at close range, but it starts to miss some shots from medium~ range.

(I’m sorry I have no idea how long the range is.)

It barely hits the target when the enemy is slightly about to pass over the max range.

I had this experience(As THUNDA) enemy turret is shooting me from enough far distance(damn it, still can’t decribe the exact distance. Sorry), but it actually just tickled me. Definitely wasn’t 60 DPS.

I’m quite sure this turret’s own spread system might explains why it is able to land headshots.

So it is hit-scan, it is 100% accurate at close range, but has its own spread, so it gets inaccurate if target goes far.[/quote]
I was talking about giving the turret the ability to dodge bullets, not the player dodging the turret. I guess you would have known that anyways so…[/spoiler]

[spoiler][quote=“EBLIS;199823”][quote=“bizarreRectangle;199814”]…if it actually locks on to someone, the target shouldn’t be able to dodge its bullets.[/quote]

Like almost no one can escape Proxy’s mines.[/quote]

A trap that which could be escaped from is a trap that which would not be a competitive play under any circumstance.

And Proxy’s mines? You complaining about their use as a trap and thinking that they’re inescapable?

You might as well just give Bushwhacker’s turret the complete inability to react to enemies if you want Proxy’s mines to have a bigger window of opportunity for newer players to escape them![/spoiler][/quote]

No I wasn’t complaining I just said turret should be like Proxy’s mine that you can not escape, so we have a solid turret and not just a tiny accessory. It happens that I play Proxy and love those mines. When I fall into those traps I just think “ooooh f**k, a mine, didn’t check the obvious places!” —> I only blame myself for not checking and that what amuses me even if I’m the victim.

[JonBongNoJovi]

Playing as Bush a fair bit i find that as Bush the turret is destroyed before its fully deployed , in same way playing against its easy to destroy before fully deployed , if the cool down remains as it is i propose giving it a period of indestructablity whilst deploying making it able to actually do its job as in the trailer .

[Naonna]

I would advise against allowing bushwacker to have a temporary invinca-wall while deploying the turret. We had Mini Sentries in tf2. if an engineer dropped one before the nerf, you could unload on it and it wouldn’t die. While you were focusing on it, the engie ran off.

I would advise making his turret more powerful only once it was set up and positioned. It encourages you to lure enemies into it. At the same time, however, I advise that picking up a turret to re-position it between fights be made a bit more viable. As of now, the turret is only a risk to slow moving mercs within close proximity. Either by making the damage consistent over long ranges by reducing the turret’s spread, or by boosting the raw dps at close range and lock-on time, the turret needs to be improved so that it’s defensive capabilities are better balanced in power with proxy’s mines.

[Tanker_Ray]

@EBLIS hmm. I don’t… really think turret shouldn’t be mine-level strong.

Because too much firepower for stationary things make game really boring like @Eox mentioned.

There is a guy name ‘Bastion’ who turns himself to turret in OW, and yeah, I’m not saying this guy is same as Bush’s turret but same thing can happen if turret becomes inescapable.

Bush is more like ‘All-round steady engineer’, no where near to high risk high return Proxy.

So as much as we all want turrets to be strong, turret’s firepower should also stay as ‘Assisting weapon’ level.

@Naonna Turret is actually most effective weapon against fast/paper thin female mercs(Because it never misses at close range, and 60DPS hurts like hell to them, unlike male mercs. 1.5 sec, then 90HP mercs are already dead.), NOT slow and sturdy guys.

I can agree if turret gets own invincible time when it’s deploying, but invinca-wall?

Sorry, but I think that’s way too much. Other than that, turret’s enough firepower buff is what we all want.

[yenku]

Hello guys, nice topic @THUNDA
I would really like to play more Bushwhacker again because, I really find it a bit boring right now, so I really do not play him.

I would just fix his Turret.
Actually the only turret I found really fun to use is the one in The Division, it’s versatile and strong enough.

How I would like the Bushwhacker’s Turret to be ?

Abilities

• Press Q to put the turret like we actually do

• Press E to throw it, like in The Division. Or think how you throw Fletcher stickies far while jumping (sorry for my English, I hope to explain myself the best I can). Of course I would keep the throw distance short, just a bit more than Proxy mines.

• Make it stronger, I mean, give it more HP while keeping 60/65 DPS because of low HP merc.

• Make Lock-ON less needed. Really, while some good player do good with every loadout, most of use are just looking at C41.

• The Spot-ON idea looks great.

• Being able to easily put turrent in the corner.

I would really like a smaller and more flexible turret.

I really miss the “surprise” effect with Bushwhacker, yes you can kill some less aware player but, is not rewarding as Fletcher/Proxy “surprise”.

You guys wrote nice ideas about Bushw and I hope Splash Damage will notice them
@RazielWarmonic

[JonBongNoJovi]

Been toying with the idea to make the turret stick to surfaces , imagine placing a turret on the ceiling or maybe on a wall , would help break the line of sight that is the bane of most turret placement.

[bizarreRectangle]

I don’t like the sticky turret idea, I know dirty bomb isn’t a realistic game but this just seems too ridiculous. I don’t think it is the way to help the turret anyway.

[Tanker_Ray]

@JonBongNoJovi I really like the idea though.

Just like SNITCH.

But DB’s map is way too narrow for that, and besides I agree with @bizarreRectangle ,

May be it won’t be THAT useful at open maps like Chapel or Trainyard.

But Hot DAMN, what a nice idea!

one Like for you.

[incisiveDetour]

Been toying with the idea to make the turret stick to surfaces , imagine placing a turret on the ceiling or maybe on a wall , would help break the line of sight that is the bane of most turret placement.

That’s what I had in mind for a while, including since the Brink turret days. The point for me is that the turret is weak and has no point has standing up to a player on its own. The whole value for me resides in 2 scenarios based on smart/sneaky placement, that can even be combined:

1. increase placement/versatility capabilities: possibility to deploy turrets on a wider range of surfaces (not thrown like a snitch, but deployed as today except it would work on walls for example), not just flat ground. Increases the number of interesting spots to look out for on maps. Problem : that probably means the 3Dmodel of the turret needs adjustment, and rigorous testing on maps to avoind unintended/weird behavior, and therefore is unlikely to happen, unfortunately…

2. support chokepoints and chokepoints’ fallback heal/ammo zones. This is currently how I mostly use the turret : at a choke point full of people shooting each other, and having the turret placed so that it is never the first damage source the enemies sees or feels. When they move in to engage the friendlies in their holing spot, hopefully the turret can participate from another angle, and its added damage is less immediately noticed because drowned into the general battle fray. The placement/versatility boost could also help here or course.

Still, the simplest buffs easy to do today have been mentioned already, and is either more turret HP/dmg (for a static general approach to the ability), or remove the CD nerf (for a more dynamic/replacing approach).

[sgtCrookyGrin]

I realized after reading the Dirtybomb about page I think we’re looking at this wrong. I know he needs some things tweaked but I don’t think we should do a massive buff because the core aspect we forget in all of this is his teamplay.

Bush’s turret serves as a great distraction, shield, extra DPS, and other things that I could list but it would lower the impact of his understanding. He’s a team merc with a balanced weapon kit, his turret is there to support him and his team in engagements. In most ways the only benefit is to make Bush better on his own when he should be better because he’s working with a team.

Albeit can’t use it as effectively as the other engies which means it needs tweaking not buffing. Right now lower the cool down and pick up times so that he can be more mobile.

Cool ideas that implement teamplay is stuff like if the enemy is spotted the turret automatically targets and shoots the person being spotted, maybe it takes one mag of the primary weapon you have making it useful for an ammo merc to toss some more ammo to you (and lowering cooldowns on a direct hit), maybe stuff to implement teamplay not just make Bush stronger.

I think we should focus on making some of the mercs more interesting and full of depth that interacts with other mercs instead of “buff his turret it needs to be stronger”.

Or maybe I’m insane and we don’t need that stuff but hey at least we shouldn’t forget the team aspects of the mercs that can interconnect between each other.

[JJMAJR]

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;204055”]I realized after reading the Dirtybomb about page I think we’re looking at this wrong. I know he needs some things tweaked but I don’t think we should do a massive buff because the core aspect we forget in all of this is his teamplay.

Bush’s turret serves as a great distraction, shield, extra DPS, and other things that I could list but it would lower the impact of his understanding. He’s a team merc with a balanced weapon kit, his turret is there to support him and his team in engagements. In most ways the only benefit is to make Bush better on his own when he should be better because he’s working with a team.[/quote]
In TF2 Engie’s turret is only effective when someone else is watching it. And it has better DPS at level 2 compared to most weapons in the game, combined with 180 health, which was above the health of Pyro, and close to par with Demoman.

Level 3, the turret has 216 health, which was larger than Soldier’s health. It’s as if Bushwhacker put down a Thunder without legs onto the field. With alarms when it gets hit and everything.

So saying that Bushwhacker’s turret needs to be focused on team-based play (and I think that this doesn’t really describe much besides “ooh it should be weak in combat” or something) is pretty unfair. Sure, before it was a distraction but it can only act as a distraction at that. This combined with poor weaponry and only boosted by objective specialist and you get a pretty paltry character to work with.

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;204055”]Albeit can’t use it as effectively as the other engies which means it needs tweaking not buffing. Right now lower the cool down and pick up times so that he can be more mobile.

Cool ideas that implement teamplay is stuff like if the enemy is spotted the turret automatically targets and shoots the person being spotted, maybe it takes one mag of the primary weapon you have making it useful for an ammo merc to toss some more ammo to you (and lowering cooldowns on a direct hit), maybe stuff to implement teamplay not just make Bush stronger.

I think we should focus on making some of the mercs more interesting and full of depth that interacts with other mercs instead of “buff his turret it needs to be stronger”.

Or maybe I’m insane and we don’t need that stuff but hey at least we shouldn’t forget the team aspects of the mercs that can interconnect between each other.[/quote]

I think that the turret needs to be a stronger defensive tool than it is right now. Right now, it’s just a Sparks without legs, healing, and reviving. I am serious about this statement.

If anything I would like to have the Turret act like a stationary Blishlock Bushwhacker. If the turret needs more setup time then so be it.

And even so, the turret shouldn’t be an easy mode tool for players to use. It should scale to player skill. It should automatically lock on to spotted enemies and be able to read how weak they are to damage. If the player makes more than 3 headshots per second, the turret should aim at the face by default.

I don’t know to be honest why Bushwhacker should be so weak. Probably because that it takes a lot of work on the AI to make automated tools useful.

[sonsofaugust5]

i fletcher main. Havent since the last patch because of the bugs and i t hink bush is awesome. His steady augment is too weak though…

[sonsofaugust5]

The reclaim time is also long i agree.

[sgtCrookyGrin]

[quote=“JJMAJR;204061”][quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;204055”]I realized after reading the Dirtybomb about page I think we’re looking at this wrong. I know he needs some things tweaked but I don’t think we should do a massive buff because the core aspect we forget in all of this is his teamplay.

Bush’s turret serves as a great distraction, shield, extra DPS, and other things that I could list but it would lower the impact of his understanding. He’s a team merc with a balanced weapon kit, his turret is there to support him and his team in engagements. In most ways the only benefit is to make Bush better on his own when he should be better because he’s working with a team.[/quote]
In TF2 Engie’s turret is only effective when someone else is watching it. And it has better DPS at level 2 compared to most weapons in the game, combined with 180 health, which was above the health of Pyro, and close to par with Demoman.

Level 3, the turret has 216 health, which was larger than Soldier’s health. It’s as if Bushwhacker put down a Thunder without legs onto the field. With alarms when it gets hit and everything.

So saying that Bushwhacker’s turret needs to be focused on team-based play (and I think that this doesn’t really describe much besides “ooh it should be weak in combat” or something) is pretty unfair. Sure, before it was a distraction but it can only act as a distraction at that. This combined with poor weaponry and only boosted by objective specialist and you get a pretty paltry character to work with.

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;204055”]Albeit can’t use it as effectively as the other engies which means it needs tweaking not buffing. Right now lower the cool down and pick up times so that he can be more mobile.

Cool ideas that implement teamplay is stuff like if the enemy is spotted the turret automatically targets and shoots the person being spotted, maybe it takes one mag of the primary weapon you have making it useful for an ammo merc to toss some more ammo to you (and lowering cooldowns on a direct hit), maybe stuff to implement teamplay not just make Bush stronger.

I think we should focus on making some of the mercs more interesting and full of depth that interacts with other mercs instead of “buff his turret it needs to be stronger”.

Or maybe I’m insane and we don’t need that stuff but hey at least we shouldn’t forget the team aspects of the mercs that can interconnect between each other.[/quote]

I think that the turret needs to be a stronger defensive tool than it is right now. Right now, it’s just a Sparks without legs, healing, and reviving. I am serious about this statement.

If anything I would like to have the Turret act like a stationary Blishlock Bushwhacker. If the turret needs more setup time then so be it.

And even so, the turret shouldn’t be an easy mode tool for players to use. It should scale to player skill. It should spot enemies and be able to read how weak they are to damage. If the player makes more than 3 headshots per second, the turret should aim at the face by default.

I don’t know to be honest why Bushwhacker should be so weak. Probably because that it takes a lot of work on the AI to make automated tools useful.[/quote]

I would like to point out that I’m not against making him better, I’m only against all these buffs that you guys list that can break him when you consider how good he is in a simple 15 second skirmish with the team. (I’d recommend you don’t compare TF2, 2 scouts can take down a lvl 3 by working together, it’s a game with its own issues)

I know he needs changes which is why I’m not against it I’m simply saying we need to consider the team aspects with the turret as well. Heck I like the shoot the head idea if you land headshots, albeit should it be a better defensive or in between like how Proxy can suicide Proxy and still get a kill?

What should it do with you and without you? Oh hey now that’s an idea!

[JJMAJR]

[quote=“JJMAJR;204061”]It should spot enemies and be able to read how weak they are to damage. If the player makes more than 3 headshots per second, the turret should aim at the face by default.

I don’t know to be honest why Bushwhacker should be so weak. Probably because that it takes a lot of work on the AI to make automated tools useful.[/quote]

I would like to point out that I’m not against making him better, I’m only against all these buffs that you guys list that can break him when you consider how good he is in a simple 15 second skirmish with the team. (I’d recommend you don’t compare TF2, 2 scouts can take down a lvl 3 by working together, it’s a game with its own issues)

-TF2 has (at one point, the Meet your Match update was nuts in regards to the Sydney Sleeper and Pyro, while Spy isn’t doing so well himself) been an extremely well balanced game.
-If you are saying that Bushwhacker shouldn’t be buffed just because that he could pull a lot of weight while he is with his team, either it’s because that bushwhacker’s weapons are being shot at you in close range or because that you are way too unaware about turrets in general.

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;204069”]I know he needs changes which is why I’m not against it I’m simply saying we need to consider the team aspects with the turret as well. Heck I like the shoot the head idea if you land headshots, albeit should it be a better defensive or in between like how Proxy can suicide Proxy and still get a kill?

What should it do with you and without you? Oh hey now that’s an idea![/quote]
No. I don’t want Bushwhacker to become a campy class where he constantly has to watch his turret in order to ensure its survival. I think that Bushwhacker’s strength should be map coverage instead, being able to watch multiple areas at a time more easily than other characters.

If he was that little campy class, he would be able to repair his turret.

[Mister_Wiggles]

I’m leaning towards a rework more than a turret buff. He is by miles the worst engineer in the game. He’s slow, his ability has long ass cooldown all while going against Fletcher amd proxy that can easily get top frags while ptfo. Maybe make his turret remote control as well as automatic? Maybe allow it to be upgraded so it deals more damage or locks on quicker? As a merc with abilities aside, his gun selection is good and his hp is average so he doesn’t need drastic rework, it’s all about making that turret worth the cooldown and sadly it doesn’t. I mean, removing the turret amd replacing it with a multipurpose drone would fix it, allow the drone to fly and be stationary, cooldown adjusted depending on usage and such. Just spit-balling here lol.

[Icecoal]

Let us rotate the turret during placement so he can face any direction we want. It’s also a little annoying that you have to stay on the place you want to put the turret. One more thing , make it invincible during placement so it won’t get shut down immediately? Just till the turret is ready

[yenku]

Uhmm… give him two mini turrets ?
Just two small, a bit weaker, but high DPS mini turrets/sentry

Think about those crossfire scenarios

[JJMAJR]

One more thing , make it invincible during placement so it won’t get shut down immediately? Just till the turret is ready

There was a reason why the turret shouldn’t be completely invincible before being placed. It’s a second player. It should require more intelligence to use that second player correctly than just plopping it down in any firefight that the player encounters.

The turret should be able to deny an area long enough for reinforcements to come by and wipe out the aggressors. Not tank a ton of damage and do absolutely nothing else, because that’s what Turtle is going to be for.