Seriously, Let's talk about Bushwhacker.

(JJMAJR) #21

[quote=“Dawnrazor;197318”][quote=“JJMAJR;197278”]Bushwhacker should be a lot better defensively than he is right now. He should also have less dependence on things like Lock-On to be more powerful.

Bushwacker doesn’t need an offensive buff. Engineers should play better defensively without their passive than offensively.[/quote]

“Defensive engineers” don’t really have much of a purpose, because if you’re holding a bombsite it’s better to play an assault, fire support or recon for the added firepower and only switch to engineer for a retake since they shouldn’t be able to get a plant unless they wipe your team.[/quote]

So far the most ideal defensive engineer I seen is pretty good at gathering information and keeping everyone else’s KDR in check, despite their reduced firepower in most offensive situations.

I know that Bushwhacker could be powerful in this sense because that he basically had a difficult to destroy deployable which acted almost like a second player.

Its presence could spot enemies for Bushwhacker to deal with, chink off a small fraction of that enemy’s health, and buy time for defensive reinforcements to come.

Meanwhile Proxy’s deployable is all of the above when used as a trap, minus the fact that it buys time for her team.

Fletcher’s deployable is more of a surprise factor ability when it’s used in a defensive manner. However he has no way of defending himself at range without the offensive power…

So many reworks are needed for Proxy and Fletcher in order to make them work out better.

(Tanker_Ray) #22

@IAmYourDad

I still do. But I’m aware of unlimited pubs these days, only stay in min 20 or min 10 by inviting all Asia server high levels I know.

@Eox

Giving immobile turret a least mobility might be good, but in my opinion I think turret sbould be more sturdy.

About the DPS, yeah 60 is quite painful to female mercs already.

It’s just its 110HP is paper thin, and turret just can’t even handle itself before even showing its firepower.

so may be leave the firepower, but somehow make it rigid and harder to destroy.

@Dawnrazor

I don’t think so. What @JJMAJR said is much closer to Bush’s concept.

Problem of Bush is his turret can’t even do its job = Defending these days.

While the other two engineers are busy spamming their explosives, acting like they are some Assault mercs,

Mines and Stickies arre actually also in same category : Automatic Defense System.

Fletcher, the omni-purpose merc was nerfed last time, and eventhough he is still quite OP when fighting close range, he is bit ok nowadays.

So the last one, Proxy, if SD is going to let her insta-blowing everything,

All Bush needs is stronger defensing power to keep his C4 safe.

Doesn’t mean I want some explosives like those two, or making turret somehow useful at offensive.

(JonBongNoJovi) #23

Lock On is crucial , maybe remove it as a perk and give it to the base turret and make Lock On augment actually spot the target on map for team to see them who managed to evade , this would remove having Lock On as a must have. As mentioned it feels the turret is underwhelming after all the changes to others perks and feels forgoton.

(Szakalot) #24

really good idea @JonBongNoJovi , name of perk can be changed to ‘spot-on’ : D

(hoyes) #25

Nah if you want to remove how crucial lock-on is then buff the turrets reaction time do that 30% is minimal. How long is the reaction time currently any way. I was thinking about making it 100-150ms. This would make lock on give a 30-45ms increase still maing it useful, just not as much as before.

(watsyurdeal) #26

Two wonderful buffs for Bush, would be the ability to rotate the turret 90 degrees, so you can put it in tight spots, and for it’s targeting angle to be increased to 180 degrees, so it can target more players more easily.

(MarsRover) #27
  1. Throwing the turret like @Eox said
  2. Making Lock On reaction time standard & adding spotting like @JonBongNoJovi said
  3. Rotating the turret like @Watsyurdeal said. Not so keen about increasing the angle, especially with buffs 1. and 2.

Currently whenever I consider playing Bush I immediately reflect “why don’t I just play Fletcher instead?”. These changes would make me reconsider.

(SweetGenocide) #28

Seriously, Bushwaker needs a huge buff, every player only uses Proxy and Fletcher, Bushwaker feels like one of the most unplayed mercs in the whole game, atleast just buff his ability.

(WaffleMonster) #29

Bushwhacker is still amazing and a lot better than proxy, just a pretty bland merc in comparison to proxy and fletcher. Alot of people seem to forget he has the kek and a decent health pool which makes him a fantastic dueling merc.

(Tanker_Ray) #30

He still is.

Except the fact KeK-10 experienced Range + Reload speed + Spread = triple nerf long time ago, got the slowest 2sec reload time(Same as Timik.) among all SMGs, with Turret HP nerf that made his turret like paper. (120 -> 110.)

Like I said in the main part, this only proves he is barely only depending on C41.

C41’s Focuspare combo was everything he had, and Phantom received Focus augment when 2nd gen had came out.

There is nothing left for him relatively.

Can’t even compare to Fletcher since he has same amount of HP and even faster movement speed with machine pistol as secondary.

Proxy’s only problem is her HP.

Bush is not a fantastic dueling merc unless you are fighting against KeK-10 Phoenix or enemy is noob enough to ignore the turret’s sound.

I would say he is still quite useful unless Phantom comes out, or game is too ez that you can kill everyone with your Focus KeK-10.

@Jokder @MarsRover @SweetGenocide @Watsyurdeal

Turret’s stat is :

110 HP

5dmg + 720RPM = 60 DPS

0.6 sec of default Lock-On time. 0.42 sec with Lock-On augment.

Can only detect enemies around 144 degrees(I’m quite sure turret’s detection angle is same as when you use Mounted MG.), but once it Locks on one target, it is already able to turn 360 when Lock-onned target goes backward.

Increasing detection angle, or default Lock-On speed sounds sweet, but right now turret is so weak nowadays that it gets destroyed before it even shows its firepower all the time.

Along with phantom disabling the turret for over 15 seconds.

While the other two explosive spamming engineers are busy blowing up people, I can’t even remember the last time I was killed by turret.

I mean, before I even get shot by the turret, it is so easy to destroy it unless you are shooting it with Hochfir.

Turret was ok before, because Bush could place the new turret right after it was destroyed.

[b]Now that the short reclaim CD is gone, Like @Eox said firepower has to stay the same, so let’s make it harder to destroy.

Tankyness = more time to shoot people. [/b]

(hoyes) #31

@THUNDA I think the definite opinion of the general consensus is to buff the turrets hp back to 120 so it can shoot people longer. It wouls be a good buff, but imo not enough. I want bush to be more offensive so hes on par with the other engineers offensive capabilities. As i said reduce the amount of time for it to lock on to maybe 300ms making lock on reduce that by 90ms, still being substantial and effective, but not as crutch. This would be a buff to buff to its offensive and defensive capabilities, bringing up it in practice TTK. And finally bring the down the deploy time to 1.2 secs. This would turn the turret to a powerful defensive tool as well as a quick gadget you can deploy mid firefight that can boost up your damage to help you win certain firefights against more than one person.

(JJMAJR) #32

[quote=“THUNDA;198829”]Increasing detection angle, or default Lock-On speed sounds sweet, but right now turret is so weak nowadays that it gets destroyed before it even shows its firepower all the time.

Along with phantom disabling the turret for over 15 seconds.

While the other two explosive spamming engineers are busy blowing up people, I can’t even remember the last time I was killed by turret. I mean, before I even get shot by the turret, it is so easy to destroy it unless you are shooting it with Hochfir.

Turret was ok before, because Bush could place the new turret right after it was destroyed.

[b]Now that the short reclaim CD is gone, Like @Eox said firepower has to stay the same, so let’s make it harder to destroy.

Tankyness = more time to shoot people. [/b][/quote]

@Amerika had thoughts/ideas that the devs didn’t follow through with (i.e. Phantom getting high mobility melee weapons instead of Katana only, but now the weaboo style is being encouraged in the loadout cards) so, ironically, there’s still hope.

But that hope also comes alongside the fact that the devs would likely destroy Dirty Bomb because that they have biases that done the following:

Fletcher’s incredible and intentional strength on offense.
Phantom’s loadouts encouraging melee-only play in Season 2.

So I really am unsure that the devs would make the right decision regarding Bushwhacker’s turret. In my opinion, either one of these things should happen:

[spoiler]The turret’s DPS has to be at least 90 and the health 120, in order to functionally make it a turret that has 240 HP compared to humans that have crit spots. Unfortunately I fear 90 would not be enough considering the fact that the turret doesn’t aim for the face, functionally making its DPS equate to 45.

Add on the fact that the turret’s unable to be repaired and must be reclaimed in order to restore its health and to be honest, it’s still pretty terrible.

OR

The turret returns to having its old cooldown time recovery stats. This is the fastest and simplest way to fix the turret.[/spoiler]

And, on top of that, the turret should be able to lock on to players that have been spotted automatically, so that Lock-On wouldn’t be a mandatory perk for Bushwhacker while the turret itself doesn’t become so powerful relative to what it was like before the cooldown nerf.

If those things would be overpowered (because someone like @Eox hates TF2 back in 2014 or something) then increase the amount of time it takes for the thing to set up.

(Eox) #33

He still is.

Except the fact KeK-10 experienced Range + Reload speed + Spread = triple nerf long time ago, got the slowest 2sec reload time(Same as Timik.) among all SMGs, with Turret HP nerf that made his turret like paper. (120 -> 110.)

Like I said in the main part, this only proves he is barely only depending on C41.

C41’s Focuspare combo was everything he had, and Phantom received Focus augment when 2nd gen had came out.

There is nothing left for him relatively.

Can’t even compare to Fletcher since he has same amount of HP and even faster movement speed with machine pistol as secondary.

Proxy’s only problem is her HP.

Bush is not a fantastic dueling merc unless you are fighting against KeK-10 Phoenix or enemy is noob enough to ignore the turret’s sound.

I would say he is still quite useful unless Phantom comes out, or game is too ez that you can kill everyone with your Focus KeK-10.

@Jokder @MarsRover @SweetGenocide @Watsyurdeal

Turret’s stat is :

110 HP

5dmg + 720RPM = 60 DPS

0.6 sec of default Lock-On time. 0.42 sec with Lock-On augment.

Can only detect enemies around 144 degrees(I’m quite sure turret’s detection angle is same as when you use Mounted MG.), but once it Locks on one target, it is already able to turn 360 when Lock-onned target goes backward.

Increasing detection angle, or default Lock-On speed sounds sweet, but right now turret is so weak nowadays that it gets destroyed before it even shows its firepower all the time.

Along with phantom disabling the turret for over 15 seconds.

While the other two explosive spamming engineers are busy blowing up people, I can’t even remember the last time I was killed by turret.

I mean, before I even get shot by the turret, it is so easy to destroy it unless you are shooting it with Hochfir.

Turret was ok before, because Bush could place the new turret right after it was destroyed.

[b]Now that the short reclaim CD is gone, Like @Eox said firepower has to stay the same, so let’s make it harder to destroy.

Tankyness = more time to shoot people. [/b][/quote]

Sturdiness increase ? …Mmmmeeeeeeeh why not. I don’t think I would mind that much, though I am not sure if it would solve the main issue by itself. I my opinion, the turret is more in the need of versatility and flexibility. But it could be a decent change if it’s not the only one.

(Lord.Eblis) #34

I was thinking the exact same thing. When I play Bush and I see those people evading, how many time I said to myself : that would be great if they were spotted so teammates could finish them fast.

The whole thing about Bush in this post is a reality.

I bought this merc with real money cause I really liked that idea of a turret + I liked Bush style :slight_smile:
Of course I was not hoping for an immortal and almighty turret, but to be honest, till now, he is the less funny merc I played with. I even find him less fun than Fragger or Thunder whose “fun ability” is their extra life but I find them fat and slow and not that effective with grenades.
For bush I was disappointed by the loadouts even if some of his weapons are good.
I couldn’t find a fun weapon with a descent loadout.
When I play this merc, I feel really less useful than when I play with Fletcher or Proxy with whom I’m not very effective because she lacks some hp points that are a handicap for a player like me.

Playing Bush, is like having only a primary weapon. Placing good turrets is not enough because it doesn’t deal enough damage and it’s way too weak. Of course I got some kills and assists and it’s fun, but players know how to deal with the turrets, a clip and a peekaboo and it’s dead.
It’s not like proxy’s mine, 9 times of 10, if you see those mines, it’s already too late because you’re in it’s perimeter of action and you are dead for sure!

Turrets must be buffed in a balanced way, ok strange to say but something must be done.

What if the turret become a little Robot Turret that has a circle of action like the health/ammo station?
It would be the actual upper part of the turret on a small mobile 6/8 mechanical legs body. Placed on the ground that robot could move towards players (360°) to be more offensive, dodge bullets in a certain amount.
Imagine a turret placed behind a corner or wall, it’s perimeter would extend behind the wall like the health station.
This perimeter must be visible too so players would say “oh s**t, a turret, what can I do”, like when they say “Hell, a health station is behind the wall, what if an aura is there, she will regenerates and take me down, worst… what if a rhino is behind?”.
That turret can only attack defend what it sees or what enter its rounded perimeter without being directly seen.

I said it could dodge bullet and regenerates to a certain amount :

  • A player is behind a wall fighting a turret that detected him. The player lowered it’s life to 30, the turret get back behind the wall and regenerate 20 points of life max if not being hit again in 10 seconds. The player knows it, he has 2 choices, take another route or act fast to take it down.
    Now imagine a load out with an augment “regenerate for a max of 40 points”. That would make a offensive turret with a potential 140 hp. You would have to choose a loadout to boost yourself : unshakeable, tough… or the turret : spot-on, regen, lock-on, Defensing Reach (15% increase to size of defensing radius).
    Such a turret would really make a difference and would make foes lose precious time like Proxy’s mine do. Of course, a balance must be fond.
(JJMAJR) #35

Ugh, a guy that doesn’t understand hitscan weapons.

(Lord.Eblis) #36

Ooh maybe :slight_smile: Teach me please, really, I would like to play better with Bush. Thanks.

(JJMAJR) #37

You can’t just say that a turret can move about to “dodge bullets” in this game, because that bullet-based weapons in this game simply just do something along the lines of this:

IF mouse_1 pressed THEN
{Ammo -1
IF enemy position lines up between player and wall
AND player’s next shot line would line up with enemy, THEN
{damage enemy}
}
ELSE do nothing

Or, if you want an article, read this:

Bullets in DB travel at an infinite speed. Explosives would be able to circumvent that little dodging mechanic you thought of, and the only thing left would be a kunai/crossbow attack, which would definitely either be explosive or be better used against a player instead of a deployable.

Thus, turret dodging is useless.

(Tanker_Ray) #38

@EBLIS hmm. nice idea of natural HP regen turret.

I prefer Bush himself ‘repairing’ his own turret, or even other deployables.

Sounds very cool, but just like Spot-On, I don’t think they are going to make the new augment just for him because of augment slot limit.

@JJMAJR and @Szakalot who agreed,

It’s quite funny fact but turret actually misses when it’s shooting enemy from far range.

It is clearly hit-scan, but it really is able. Because it has its own SPREAD.

Um… it will land all 60DPS at close range, but it starts to miss some shots from medium~ range.

(I’m sorry I have no idea how long the range is.)

It barely hits the target when the enemy is slightly about to pass over the max range.

I had this experience(As THUNDA) enemy turret is shooting me from enough far distance(damn it, still can’t decribe the exact distance. Sorry), but it actually just tickled me. Definitely wasn’t 60 DPS.

I’m quite sure this turret’s own spread system might explains why it is able to land headshots.

So it is hit-scan, it is 100% accurate at close range, but has its own spread, so it gets inaccurate if target goes far.

(bizarreRectangle) #39

I think the reclaim cooldown should be reverted and hp back to 120 hp. It is already a stationary target, I don’t know why they nerfed it in the first place. I also think it’s bs that the turret can miss, if it actually locks on to someone, the target shouldn’t be able to dodge its bullets.

(Lord.Eblis) #40

Like almost no one can escape Proxy’s mines.