Seriously, Let's talk about Bushwhacker.

(Tanker_Ray) #1

Yeah. I used him almost more than anyone in this game. He used to be my main engineer pick BEFORE,

but I never pick him nowadays, unless my team is desperate of engineer.

After this Reclaim CD nerf 80% -> 65% nerf,

I just can’t tolerate his situation right now. If you reclaim your turret right ahead, it’s 12sec!!!

While other two engineers are busy bombing the enemies with sitckies and manul mine detonation, acting like they were some Assault mercs,

Bush is now crying with his poor turret disabled by new nightmare Phantom.

About his current state, All I can say is Bush is barely alive with his soul mate C41 and BL81 right now.

I knew his turret became quite weak after its HP was nerfed to 110HP from 120HP, but his only lifeline is gone now with the CD nerf. Only thing he could do was placing the turret right after the previous turret is destroyed.

He is still ‘bit useful’ pick with his C41’s Focus KeK-10, or against noobs that never react to turrets.

He himself doesn’t really need much buff as KeK-10 is sitting on well balanced SMG nowadays, and Focuspare combo is still available with C41, but since Phantom got Focus augment at 2nd gen edition,

Bushwhacker is almost only depending on his KeK-10 really.

BL81 is also a nice pick, but his turret is very weak, super obvious, and it is definitely one of the easiest automatic defense system to counter.

His 2nd gen is also quite disappointing too. Only SM43, and MAY BE C72 is useful.(1st gen C73 was best with Drilled+Spares combo to enhance Bush himself.)

He really needs some love. I just can’t understand why SD nerfed him this much. Even before he was considered as best starting engineer, it was all because of his C41 and KeK-10, turret’s easy usage with average level base strength, nothing like he was some OP shxt like fletcher used to be, or Proxy who got WAY TOO MUCH LOVE from SD, blowing up people with her 20sec CD mines which blows up harder than Fragger’s pineapple.

Right now Bush himself just became another common SMG-using guy without any skill advantage.

His turret really needs to be buffed for sure.

(JJMAJR) #2

I made some suggestions myself.

[quote=“JJMAJR;31366”]Bushwhacker’s turret (not-so) recently got a very big nerf. The cooldown time regained upon reclaiming his turret was decreased, while the DPS is at a paltry 40.

I think it would be a good time to suggest a buff idea for Bushwhacker.

The turret should automatically lock on to enemies that have been spotted recently and are in the turret’s view.

This would make Lock-On dramatically less important for Bushwhacker and make a lot of the previously-trash loadouts for the class viable. It would also create synergy between Bushwhacker and spotters like Redeye or Vasilli.[/quote]

I would also like a cooldown-related buff to the turret. Or a combat buff, if SD is going to be salty about the turret being able to be repositioned easily.

(hoyes) #3

I genuinely think they need to up the turrets combat potential as compared to other engineers, he is absolutely pathetic at combat. Some people will say, “but that’s not his playstyle” but if you look at it , both other engineers both have explosives and can get easy aces whilst bush is lucky to get one kill with the turret. Sure he is powerful by himself, but imo you should pick a merc for their ability, not their hp, speed and guns, despite them being the most important thimgs in combat.I think a health and damage buff would justify the cooldown change, making the turret more effective at locking down an area. Maybe 12 damage and 120hp.The dps would still be low, but at least if it is noticed it won’t go out without a fight.

(Szakalot) #4

Imo turret could setup even faster.

Think about it, with the slow CD, and punishing relocating (cause of the reclaim); a turret setup time of 1sec would be interesting. It would actually be viable to peek-put-turret-push with it;

probably still too slow in high lvl play, though xd

(IAmYourDad) #5

Bushwhacker’s turret is objectively worse than every other engineers’s abilities. I don’t remember the last time i got killed by a turret. It need lower cooldown (20-25sec) to compete with fletcher.

(BananaSlug) #6

let him throw it like on scrubs trailer :stuck_out_tongue: jk

(Szakalot) #7

@BananaSlug that would be really cool, only hard to implement

(BananaSlug) #8

@Szakalot yes but with that health and set up time it would probably get destroyed without doing anything :confused:

(Orivar) #9

I do pick him because I dont like cancer or the guy who spams the nuclear balls (Fletcha)

(SweetGenocide) #10

I also have lots of fun with bush, but the nerf… i mean, the turret dosen’t even do that much damage tho…

(BananaSlug) #11

there are lots of things to change:
making it smaller
adding 360° detection and better spin time
cooldown
reversing that nerf with cooldown after picking it up
or adding some mechanic to reward people that reposition their turret very offten

(JJMAJR) #12

Right now, objective specialists have two tiers: cancer, and s#it. Bushwhacker is s#it, Proxy’s s#it and cancer at the same time, and Fletcher’s cancer all the way.

[spoiler]Engineers should be primarily defensive. Proxy can only do offense, because as a trapper she’s terrible, but she can pop those mines quickly and efficiently. Bushwhacker is primarily defensive but his ability is subpar due to low DPS, ease in destruction, the need for Lock-On, and now a long cooldown for repositioning his defenses. Fletcher’s able to do both offense and defense like a F$$$ing assault.

Bushwacker needs to be able to pull more weight than he does right now, while Fletcher and Proxy need to be reworked to have more of a defensive focus.

If you want all objective specialists to be s#it (considering your previous reactions to buffing Bushwhacker and the like) and make any kind of defensive ability s#it (considering your statement on Rhino) then I guess I would have to wait until you become more experienced with the game.[/spoiler]
But in the mean time, there are people out there that can completely destroy anyone that uses the turret or Rhino’s ability because they are predictable, immobile, and deal so little damage per second compared to a player that is competent at landing headshots on such targets. Even if the turret doesn’t have a headshot box it still is vulnerable to a classic peek-and-shoot strategy.

[spoiler]This game is for people who know how to counter and make the use of everything possible in the game. If you don’t know how to counter something, ask for guidance, and if you really think that something can’t be countered you could always just put up a video showing how powerful that ability is.

There’s obviously some cancerous s#it out there that needs to be nerfed. Examples: Thunder, Fletcher, Proxy’s offensive abilities, burst rifles. But stuff that could be easily hard-countered should also get a buff. And I’m g0dd@mn sick of seeing you complain about things that obviously should get buffed because you don’t have any f$$$ing clue how to counter them.

Just in advance I’m not a f$$$ing brick wall. I backed down on my argument for Proxy because @THUNDA shown a video that clearly depicts Proxy being able to use her mines as an extremely powerful offensive tool. (Although I’m starting to get second thoughts at the fact that she probably only works well if the enemy is thinned out.) But I’m starting to believe that you are.[/spoiler]
So, if you are going to keep whining and saying that anything that isn’t Fragger or Vassili should be nerfed in LoS power until they are shredded by Fragger or Vassili, I want to be the first person to tell you that nobody cares about what you say.

See? You’re special!

(Tanker_Ray) #13

@IAmYourDad Hey, are you the Dad I know in Asia server?

good to see you in forums. Thunder Pro here.

@Szakalot @BananaSlug

Damn, that’s really cool idea but it still doesn’t change the fact that deployable skills like turret will always touch its limit as fixed/immobile thing that stands in the same place all the time.

But 360 degree spinning might be really cool. DAYUM!

What I’m thinking was since turret is super weak against Phantom-Chu’s EMP, and explosives, Make it tough against bullets like EV.

I mean, not EV level strong of course but explosives as counter will still remain if it changes this way.

It is going to be a lot tougher than before, since his CD is nerfed like hell.

@SweetGenocide

May be the turret’s firepower itself can be buffed, because it has paper thin HP(110) right now. (If I’m right, turret’s damage per bullet is 5, RPM is 720 so it has 60 DPS.)

Fearsome to female mercs of course, but will DPS buff make it balance breaking?

(May be 60 -> 90)

I… have no idea about this.

Besides all of it, I just knew Bush was going to downtown when his turret became 110HP from 120HP.

The time when his turret had 120 HP was the best balanced timeline…

(hoyes) #14

@THUNDA it wouldn’t be OP in the slightest as it is easily countered and noticed. It is more obvious than a mine ffs but it has less power. IMO it should have a definite dps increase to 90 making it more effective at killing and maybe speed up the deploy time a bit more(1.2 secs) so you can ude it more offensively.

(Eox) #15

As someone who used to play TF2 and stopped due to engineer stacking, I definitely don’t want to see Bushwhacker’s turret being a DPS machine. I would definitely not like to see Bushwhackers actually more counting on their turrets to get kills rather than their own skills. However, making it more flexible and less obvious is something that I wouldn’t mind, and probably like.

How about increasing turret’s range and allowing Bushwhacker to “throw” it (pretty much like in the scrubs trailer) ? This should raise the turret’s flexibility by a nice chunk and might allow a better offensive use. Higher range also means that it could be a bit less obvious to guess where the sentry is and to flee it. Of course the sentry would start to “wake up” as soon as it’s thrown. So it’ll get up a bit while traveling. It could be a nice start.

(MilkyBear) #16

[quote=“Eox;197201”]As someone who used to play TF2 and stopped due to engineer stacking, I definitely don’t want to see Bushwhacker’s turret being a DPS machine. I would definitely not like to see Bushwhackers actually more counting on their turrets to get kills rather than their own skills. However, making it more flexible and less obvious is something that I wouldn’t mind, and probably like.

How about increasing turret’s range and allowing Bushwhacker to “throw” it (pretty much like in the scrubs trailer) ? This should raise the turret’s flexibility by a nice chunk and might allow a better offensive use. Higher range also means that it could be a bit less obvious to guess where the sentry is and to flee it. Of course the sentry would start to “wake up” as soon as it’s thrown. So it’ll get up a bit while traveling. It could be a nice start.[/quote]

Imagine that turret sliding animation makes me shiver. Seriously, there are alot of turrets in every FPS out there, but i have never seen such thing before, could be interesting if SD implement that into DB.

SD senpai pls. XD

(JJMAJR) #17

[quote=“Eox;197201”]As someone who used to play TF2 and stopped due to engineer stacking, I definitely don’t want to see Bushwhacker’s turret being a DPS machine. I would definitely not like to see Bushwhackers actually more counting on their turrets to get kills rather than their own skills. However, making it more flexible and less obvious is something that I wouldn’t mind, and probably like.

How about increasing turret’s range and allowing Bushwhacker to “throw” it (pretty much like in the scrubs trailer) ? This should raise the turret’s flexibility by a nice chunk and might allow a better offensive use. Higher range also means that it could be a bit less obvious to guess where the sentry is and to flee it. Of course the sentry would start to “wake up” as soon as it’s thrown. So it’ll get up a bit while traveling. It could be a nice start.[/quote]

Bushwhacker should be a lot better defensively than he is right now. He should also have less dependence on things like Lock-On to be more powerful.

Bushwacker doesn’t need an offensive buff. Engineers should play better defensively without their passive than offensively. With those changes above, Bushwhacker’s offensive capacity would surpass his defensive, which is complete shit right now.

TF2 isn’t a bad game. All your statement does is highlight the fact that you’re biased against the engineer archetype. Here’s a challenge:

Play engineer without being able to repair your turret. Bushwhacker can’t do it, why should the engineer be able to?

Then tell me how Bushwhacker’s turret shouldn’t be more competent at combat than it is right now.

(IAmYourDad) #18

[quote=“THUNDA;197143”]@IAmYourDad Hey, are you the Dad I know in Asia server?

good to see you in forums. Thunder Pro here.

[/quote]

Ueah man. I am the level 100+ Dad in Asia. :smile: I barely see you in pubs anymore. Do you not play pubs much these days?

(Dawnlazy) #19

[quote=“JJMAJR;197278”]Bushwhacker should be a lot better defensively than he is right now. He should also have less dependence on things like Lock-On to be more powerful.

Bushwacker doesn’t need an offensive buff. Engineers should play better defensively without their passive than offensively.[/quote]

“Defensive engineers” don’t really have much of a purpose, because if you’re holding a bombsite it’s better to play an assault, fire support or recon for the added firepower and only switch to engineer for a retake since they shouldn’t be able to get a plant unless they wipe your team.

(BananaSlug) #20

soo i played with him today and i know what should be done,

reduce the cooldown on pick up, make it like 2/3s instead of 7/10s, and maybe add 180° detection

fletcher can spam bombs, why bushwhacker cant spam turrets? :stuck_out_tongue:
i really like the play style on attack where you basically you block one way out of the spawn (soo there will be like 2/3 people max), you stand on one side of entrance, turret on other, you attack when enemy focuses on turret, and it works soo well on pubs (i know on pub even knife aura can work)

and that bl card with steady and lock on <3