Seriously, Let's talk about Bushwhacker.

(sgtCrookyGrin) #61

@JJMAJR

What’s your point about TF2? It’s a nicely balanced game (if we ignore that Pyro is still broken, Crit-o-cola is still OP, etc.) but why does TF2 need to be mentioned in the first place? Sorry I digress but I’ve got no idea what point you’re trying to make about both games being in relation.

I’m uncertain of what you’re trying to tell me because I’m with you on making Bush better. I’m making sure we consider his ability interactions with the team and what it can do with or without him. You seem to be misinterpreting what I’m saying, I’m not saying he needs to babysit it like an Engie to make it effective in fact you mentioned it should do something similar to that and I was in agreement with the concept, “If the player makes more than 3 headshots per second, the turret should aim at the face by default.” What’s the idea you want for Bushwacker?

You want to make Bush’s turret like a second person, something that can cover an area and deny the enemy “team” from pushing into there “long enough” (I hope that means 4 seconds till the spawn wave). That’s a tad powerful especially if it’s on its own, the only thing in this game barely capable of doing that alone is Rhino sitting indoors on the objective.

Or like you said, “I think that Bushwhacker’s strength should be map coverage instead, being able to watch multiple areas at a time more easily than other characters.” flease is right, having multiple mini turrets does just that in fact I doubt any merc can cover multiple areas without LOS.

You should make a list of improvements for the turret and general concepts, that’ll help organize your thoughts. Again to make sure you understand my point here’s a list.

  1. I agree he needs changes not a huge buff for the turret that can break him cause Bush is still viable alone as a combat merc with his selection of weapons.

  2. We should consider how it can interact with the team and with you
    (ex: A spotted player is automatically targeted by the turret when in LOS is a good idea)

  3. You should consider making a list of what you think it needs because it’s organized and easily understood of what it should be able to do

(JJMAJR) #62

I guess I’ve just been very pissed off about the state that Bushwhacker is in right now. The turret is way too easy to exploit at the moment, and because it deals so little damage for its health pool (which can’t be easily regenerated) and its mobility (which is zilch).

The reason why I brought up TF2 is that the turret is actually a viable piece of the Engineer’s arsenal, while there are a bunch of ways that it isn’t a completely overpowered tool. Because of its investment and set up time the turret had to be worth the wait, which it was. That made the Engineer the best defensive class in the game.

But even then, the Engineer had to stay out of fighting otherwise his turret dies on the spot. Bushwhacker has to keep fighting in order to actually pull weight, because he doesn’t have the ability to repair his turret. Not only that, but Bushwhacker reclaiming his turret resets the whole setup time that he invested to get it working again.

Those two reasons make it hard to justify Bushwhacker’s turret being as crappy as a feather duster in a knife fight. Sure, it has a very small time investment, but it doesn’t really do anything when it’s there. The reward for playing the class on defense is a big fat load of nothing.

Here’s what I think that Bushwhacker needs in order to be good:
-His turret needs to put up a better fight. 120 health or 80 DPS. Or see below.
-Better AI is needed for the turret.
-The turret should prioritize healthier targets that are more likely to peek at the turret.
-Spotted enemies should be visible to the turret, and there should be a way for it to know how much distance each enemy would take to get into LoS, and aim at healthy enemies that are trying to close in on it.

Here’s a list of things that would be nice on the turret, but not absolutely necessary.
-The turret aiming for headshots (and hitting them) if the player consistently hit the face with their firearms, at least around 3/5 bullets.
-A second turret would not be as helpful because that even though there’s more DPS, there’s more space used up for that extra DPS, and the turrets remain the same exploitable garbage they are right now.
-Removing the spread so the turret has infinite range.

Bushwhacker should be a stronger defense-oriented class than he is right now. Unfortunately he is way too easily exploited in order to pull any weight at all.

(JonBongNoJovi) #63

Make each 2-3 bullet a “tracer” round , which will tag a enemy for a limited time after hitting , 1 possible way to give it a spotting ability , theory behind it could be a bullet with a radioactive isotope able to be tracked via geiger counter technology .

(JJMAJR) #64

I don’t think that recons and engineers should mix that way.

(sgtCrookyGrin) #65

@JJMAJR
Thank you I really appreciate the time you spent to type this out, it feels good to know what people think and they are willing to tell in an orderly fashion instead of a heated rant that can throw an insult without meaning it.

I agree with you 100% of the way. This is clearly where the turret needs to be to even start competing against Fletcher and Proxy’s mines. Bush’s turret is lacking in many aspects and after the summer squash he should be a priority.

I’m certain that with time and investment the community can create more balance ideas for the turret like [quote=“JonBongNoJovi;204240”]Make each 2-3 bullet a “tracer” round which will tag an enemy for a limited time after hitting…[/quote]
(I modified it a little cause I’m a grammar Nazi :P)

This is the type of creative ingenuity and depth we need from the community for the DEVs at SD to hear, they need to listen and help provide their info on what they think Bush should be able to do and listen to what we also think he should be able to do.

To wrap this up, thanks again for typing it out in an ordered fashion and I agree with everything you’ve said. Now the question is whether SD will listen -_-

(GatoCommodore) #66

i think it does make sense bushwhacker didnt set the sentry to get every target at any range. we must understand that bush’s turret bullet didnt hurt that good.
he set it to the most effective range in which the target will be melted with high possibility.

if his turret rounds were better like .50 cal or 30mm autocannon, he would have set it to any range. but since he wont be carrying .50 cal or 30mm autocannon (very heavy) on his back he need it to be at maximum efficiency.

he can augment his turret with extra armor or better sensor, which available in his augment. it was seen that its light enough for bush to carry it around.
his double turret augment has blish which generally weighs less than 135 spare G3 pattern sub machinegun.

so, if SD wants to nerf his turret health, give bush better speed (because the turret has less plating and etc.)

or if SD wants to nerf his speed give bush turret more armor.

(wuaffiliate) #67

[quote=“Eox;197201”]As someone who used to play TF2 and stopped due to engineer stacking, I definitely don’t want to see Bushwhacker’s turret being a DPS machine. I would definitely not like to see Bushwhackers actually more counting on their turrets to get kills rather than their own skills. However, making it more flexible and less obvious is something that I wouldn’t mind, and probably like.
[/quote]

Or buff it’s health and wake up time but increase the spawn range of other turrets by a large margin to prevent stacking of any kind.

(GatoCommodore) #68

[quote=“wuaffiliate;204388”][quote=“Eox;197201”]As someone who used to play TF2 and stopped due to engineer stacking, I definitely don’t want to see Bushwhacker’s turret being a DPS machine. I would definitely not like to see Bushwhackers actually more counting on their turrets to get kills rather than their own skills. However, making it more flexible and less obvious is something that I wouldn’t mind, and probably like.
[/quote]

Or buff it’s health and wake up time but increase the spawn range of other turrets by a large margin to prevent stacking of any kind.[/quote]

i thought bush turret should do a crossfire if theres another bush.

(Tanker_Ray) #69

I’ve been looking for all those good opinions about buffing his turret with various creative ideas that you guys have suggested, but I gotta ask you guys one more thing.

How could we possibly fix the ‘EMP’ problem that Bush is facing?

I think we must check this issue since Re-worked phantom is also critical to Bush right now.

Because no matter how turret is buffed, EMP is going to lock down the whole thing.

(GatoCommodore) #70

[quote=“THUNDA;206742”]I’ve been looking for all those good opinions about buffing his turret with various creative ideas that you guys have suggested, but I gotta ask you guys one more thing.

How could we possibly fix the ‘EMP’ problem that Bush is facing?

I think we must check this issue since Re-worked phantom is also critical to Bush right now.

Because no matter how turret is buffed, EMP is going to lock down the whole thing.[/quote]
i kinda not undersand why i cant pick it up when it got EMP? its not like a mine that needs to be unarmed.

its not like bush cant code things to his turret

(Tanker_Ray) #71

@sweetColumn

I haven’t played him for a long time, so can’t really remember if I could reclaim while the turret is disabled.

But in any way, it is very true that Buffed/Re-worked Phantom has took many things away from him.

(GatoCommodore) #72

[quote=“THUNDA;206746”]@sweetColumn

I haven’t played him for a long time, so can’t really remember if I could reclaim while the turret is disabled.

But in any way, it is very true that Buffed/Re-worked Phantom has took many things away from him.[/quote]

SD loves to nerf every engineer except fletcher…

(MarsRover) #73

[quote=“sweetColumn;206788”][quote=“THUNDA;206746”]@sweetColumn

I haven’t played him for a long time, so can’t really remember if I could reclaim while the turret is disabled.

But in any way, it is very true that Buffed/Re-worked Phantom has took many things away from him.[/quote]

SD loves to nerf every engineer except fletcher…[/quote]

Yeah like when they gave Proxy Lock On and reduced Fletcher’s sticky bomb splash damage. Oh wait…

(GatoCommodore) #74

[quote=“MarsRover;206858”][quote=“sweetColumn;206788”][quote=“THUNDA;206746”]@sweetColumn

I haven’t played him for a long time, so can’t really remember if I could reclaim while the turret is disabled.

But in any way, it is very true that Buffed/Re-worked Phantom has took many things away from him.[/quote]

SD loves to nerf every engineer except fletcher…[/quote]

Yeah like when they gave Proxy Lock On and reduced Fletcher’s sticky bomb splash damage. Oh wait…[/quote]

yea that one time nerf that actually didnt make it less OP.
fletcher Loadout itself is among the most broken in DB + his versatile ability+ he is an engineer.

will 90% win 1v1 fight because he can stick bombs then get to finish the enemy with high RPM Machine Pistol.

he can practically win the match by himself. I stopped playing fletcher few weeks ago because playing as fletcher feels unethical.

why arent bush gets the same treatment as proxy and fletcher?