RTCW 2

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Yeah, definatly closed. :drink:

[DarkangelUK]

Don’t you pay for a server with public slots? So that means you actually buy the public slots on a pub server giving anyone the right to play there, the person that pays for the server pays for the rights that anyone can play on it. That’s the reason there’s different prices for public and private servers. It’s different if you buy a private server then open it for the public. The public have no right to play there other than the fact you are letting them. You buy that public server knowing full well it’s for anyone and everyone and anyone and everyone has the right to play there. Opposite applies for a private server.

EDIT: Oh, oops… didnt notice the last post saying the matter was closed. Don;t mind me

[Kendle]

Some Server Providers do charge extra for public slots, but it’s a question of monthly bandwidth usage rather than legality. On ANY server you only have the owner/operators PERMISSION to use it, not a LEGAL RIGHT to do so. There’s a big difference which some people are obviously having a great deal of trouble understanding.

[chr0nicles]

Kendle i know what you mean, but you stated it fully wrong in the beginning of this thread since “You do have every right to play the game online if you bought it” its simple as that

There’s a big difference which some people are obviously having a great deal of trouble understanding.

The understanding factor in this thread is because of your wrong stated posts in the beginning of the thread since you made i appear that you don’t have that right to play online if you bought the game.

You ment this: You do have every right to play the game, but you don’t have a legal right to play on some server if the admin doesn’t allow you to play there example by means of ban etc.

[/u]

[Kendle]

Kendle i know what you mean, but you stated it fully wrong in the beginning of this thread since “You do have every right to play the game online if you bought it” its simple as that

Maybe, but I thought I’d long since clarified that.

You ment this: You do have every right to play the game, but you don’t have a legal right to play on some server if the admin doesn’t allow you to play there example by means of ban etc.

No, because that assumes you have the right UNLESS it’s taken way. That’s not correct either, because you NEVER have the right in the first place, only temporary permission.

[BondyBoy007]

Been reading this thread for a couple of days now, caused me much amusement at ppls mis-understanding/re-interpretation of others posts, the way it’s going it could run and run (but that’s forums for you).

But anyway Ken, I understand what you’re saying and I’m with you

[DarkangelUK]

Doesn’t paying for something not then give you the right? If i pay for the hire of a car, then i have the right to drive it cos i payed for it. If i pay for the hire of a car for me and my buddies… i paid for it so me and my buddies have the right to drive it. If you buy a public server then you pay for the right for everyone to play on it. It’s only after unforseen events would you then take away someones right to play there. Cos really, if you just told someone they can’t play there for no reason then thats discrimination and goes against their rights then. You buy a public server then anyone has the right to play there.

[Bludd]

I read the first page and had a reply in my head, then saw it was touched on in page 2, but I’ll say it anyway.

Kendle, you’re right that somebody somewhere pays for the servers and therefore has absolute power on that server. However, as was said above (and I was going to say also), the public toilets in a shopping mall lobby are not paid for by taxes, but rather the tenants of the mall, for the convenience of the public. Nobody would presume that those toilets were off limits, as they say “Public Restrooms” above the door. Now, this relates to game servers because, simply renting a server and putting it online without a password is an implied invitation to play on that server, just as I can assume I have the right to piss in the public toilet without asking permission or being invited prior. When I fire up my favorite MP game and recieve a list of servers with descriptive titles and no passwords, I am in effect being invited to play on that server, and in fact nobody would rent a dedicated game server and not expect players to join.

If it’s for a clan match, it’s got a password.

Now, if I go take a dump in said restroom and write limericks all over the walls, the custodian is perfectly within his rights to kick me out. You likewise have the right to kick me from your server, for any reason in fact. Although in our mall shitter example, if a black man was kicked out without just cause but simply for being black, that would be unacceptable. On your server, however, you can kick me out simply because you are on the rag that day, and I have no legal recourse. But that certainly does not mean that I had no “right” to join in the first place, because as I have clearly outlined above, you invited me to join by virtue of the fact that you placed a game server on the internet for public use. You don’t have to allow that server to communicate with the master server, thus enabling me to find it with my game browser. You are free to tell only your friends the ip address.

Again, I will recap these indisputable facts: Your having placed a game server on the internet without a password is my formal invitation to join said server and play on it.

I like you Kendle, because your are intelligent and helpful. But having read from the sidelines a lot of your rants about the rights of server admins versus players, I just wanted to set you straight on that one point about implied invitation. It’s pretty clear you are a server admin, and frustrated by the boneheads you have to deal with on a daily basis, and I sympathize, believe me. I’ve wished I could kick many an asshat myself, and I’m glad you tolerate no foolishness on your servers, because that attitude (when demostrated by other admins, since I’ve never played on your server as far as I know) saves me the teeth grinding I do when I want to physically smash certain players in the kisser. But just remember, when you rent a game server, you do so to play with other people, or to provide a place for others to play, and if those people are not all personal friends whom you’ve given a password, you need the public as much as they need you, or else that cash you are digging into your pockets to shell out every month is being wasted on an unused server with an icy cold CPU…

[Kendle]

:banghead:

If YOU pay for a server it gives YOU the right to use it, nothing more. The fact that it’s public simply means you’ve not set a password in the server config. One line in a text file on the server host doesn’t automatically give every man woman and child in the World LEGAL RIGHTS to play on that server.

If I invite someone into my home it doesn’t automatically assign them a legal right to be there, does it? If I leave the door unlocked and they wander in uninvited, it doesn’t give them a legal right to be there.

Think about what you’re saying. If I had a legal right to play on a server I could sue the owner / operator, in a Court of Law, if they denied me that right. That’s what I mean by legal rights. I’m not saying, and never have said, that you’re not at liberty to join any public server you please, just that you have no recourse in law if you’re asked to leave or kicked, for any reason, with or without warning.

…which in turn means you have no guarantee of being able to play on any servers anywhere unless you host or pay extra for your own.

…which in turn means no games company in their right-mind would (or indeed possibly could) charge money for a game that is purely MP without also providing you with somewhere to play (i.e. providing the servers themselves, which would be madness without also charging an on-going subscription fee).

It’s a really, really simple concept. :banghead:

EDIT: Bludd, you posted while I was writing that.

Public toilet, in a shopping mall. Yep, paid for by the tenants of that mall, therefore their property, not yours. You’re assigned permission to use them, but you would have no grounds to sue them if they denied you that permission. The reason this debate seems to be never ending is because I’m talking rights as in upholdable in a court of law whereas everyone else seems to be talking rights as in freedom to do something.

There’s a difference, and the reason it’s an important difference is because when you buy a game you enter into a legal agreement with the seller. The sellar has obligations upholdable in a court of law. NONE of those obligations is to provide you with servers, pure and simple. Which means if the software were obstensibly useless without servers, the sellar could almost certainly not charge you money for it, and that was the original point I was trying to make.

[Bludd]

You are correct, buying a multiplayer game is no guarantee of the existence of servers, unless explicitly stated. However, if I slip on the wet floor of the bathroom and break my arm, I can sue, so your legal argument there isn’t entirely accurate. Anyway, back to game servers, I believe (although I’m not a lawyer) that your invitation to join your server gives me certain limited rights under the law. What those would be I don’t know. I’m American and I understand you are British, but I believe our laws are roughly similar in most cases since they both evolved from English Common Law.

About the server config, heh. That’s a bit of a stretch, and you know it. “Oh, I meant to put on a password and forgot. These people are tresspassing.” I’d say that’s a bit different than your “open front door” scenario, because I have no earthly way of knowing the server was meant to have a password (of knowing you meant to shut the door) unless the server title explicitly states that it is a private server. Good luck using “the actual legal system” to bring a case against any player on your server, assuming they have not engaged in illegal “hacking” type activity, and simply displayed a kick-worthy attitude. If I walked into the open front door of your home without permission, I am tresspassing. If you invited me, I have certain rights, in that you cannot claim in a court of law that I was tresspassing. You can kick me out of your house if we get into an argument or for any other reason, but assuming I leave when told and cause no damage to your person or property, that’s the extent of your legal power. Such is the case with your server. I AM an invited guest, as I’ve outlined before.

All in all, you’re right in your main point. Even if ET was sold for money (assuming that would even be legal, a point which you also made and could very well be correct about), I have no recourse if I cannot find a place to play. The game contains the ability to create a server, so I am capable of solving my own problem. A dedicated server is best, so people rent them instead of hosting from home.

I think I’m right in my point as well.

[Kendle]

Well thanks for the reasoned argument Bludd, a damn sight better than the “I can therefore I have the right” type arguments that others have put forward.

Unfortunately I’m a bit pressed for time at the mo’ so won’t go into too heavy a response, I just thought I’d link these:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.roper/ET-License.rtf
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.roper/COD-License.rtf

and invite someone to highlight in either of these documents where your legal right to play on public servers is explicitly stated. Remember, you only have such legal rights as are explicitly assigned to you, as opposed to having the right to do whatever you want (or can) unless expressly forbidden. No additonal legal rights are implied or can be assumed.

I’ll be back in the morning if someone in the meantime wants to show me how these License agreements allow you to connect to any public server you’re physically capable of connecting to.

[Bludd]

It doesn’t grant that right anywhere explicitly, because it can’t The game developers don’t own or lease the servers in question, therefore thay can neither grant nor deny the right to play on them, just as I can’t grant or deny you the right to have a particular guest in a home I have sold you once you have purchased it.

[Rockford]

It doesn’t grant that right anywhere explicitly, because it can’t The game developers don’t own or lease the servers in question, therefore thay can neither grant nor deny the right to play on them, just as I can’t grant or deny you the right to have a particular guest in a home I have sold you once you have purchased it.

That’s precisely the point, though: Kendle would not purchase a game unless he were guaranteed the right to play the game. Unless the developer or distributor can guarantee the existence of servers on which each owner of the game may play (most likely through providing them), their product (the game) has only accidental value (contingent upon the existence of public servers, on which each owner of the game may play). To have the right to something requires a corresponding duty, meaning that some party has a duty to fulfill the requirements of your right. If all ET servers were to go offline tomorrow, there would be no violation of anyone’s right to play. Only if the license agreement included a guarantee of available servers (conferring rights on us, and imposing duties on the developer, distributor, or other named parties) would there be any violation of rights.

(On the other hand, if a developer or distributor were to release a patch to a single-player game that surreptitiously installed something preventing paying customers from playing the game, that would be a violation of the consumer’s right to play the game.)

As I understand it, Kendle’s original point (which has unforunately been obscured by talk of rights) was that he would not purchase a game (nor expect that others would purchase a game) with only accidental, and not guaranteed, value.

[Bludd]

Point taken. I’m not sure if I would or not. Probably since online gaming is so prevalent nowadays, and a popular game is virtually guaranteed to have servers available, I would consider paying for an MP-only game, but only if I had already tried a demo or whatnot, and was sure I loved the game. I’d never pay the standard SP rate, though. An MP-only game would have to be maybe $20 USD, tops, and like I said there better be a damned good demo for me to try first, and the promise of much more content in the full version. Afterall, Kendle is correct about the value of such a game; it is dependent on servers, and unless it’s a game where 1 on 1 DM is fun, like Q3:A, that means dedicated servers, and unlike SP games which can be played years later and still be fun (I still play Doom), an MP game once the servers dry up is dead.

In other words, Kendle is right, so forget about every other post because we all drifted off topic… :lol:

[puubert]

About the server config, heh. That’s a bit of a stretch, and you know it. “Oh, I meant to put on a password and forgot. These people are tresspassing.” I’d say that’s a bit different than your “open front door” scenario, because I have no earthly way of knowing the server was meant to have a password (of knowing you meant to shut the door) unless the server title explicitly states that it is a private server. Good luck using “the actual legal system” to bring a case against any player on your server, assuming they have not engaged in illegal “hacking” type activity, and simply displayed a kick-worthy attitude. If I walked into the open front door of your home without permission, I am tresspassing. If you invited me, I have certain rights, in that you cannot claim in a court of law that I was tresspassing. You can kick me out of your house if we get into an argument or for any other reason, but assuming I leave when told and cause no damage to your person or property, that’s the extent of your legal power. Such is the case with your server. I AM an invited guest, as I’ve outlined before.

Honestly, I think that’s spot on. If I’m invited guest, home or server, I have been given the LEGAL RIGHT to be there. I’m going ask a friend, a Masters in Law and get his legal opinion.

[Sauron_EFG]

It doesn’t really matter if you have a legal right or not Puubert, the point is that if all servers disappeared or got passworded tomorrow you wouldn’t be able to do anything about it.

(I agree with Rockford that this discussion got sidetracked…)

[Kendle]

It doesn’t grant that right anywhere explicitly, because it can’t The game developers don’t own or lease the servers in question, therefore thay can neither grant nor deny the right to play on them, just as I can’t grant or deny you the right to have a particular guest in a home I have sold you once you have purchased it.

Excellent point well made!

As I understand it, Kendle’s original point (which has unforunately been obscured by talk of rights) was that he would not purchase a game (nor expect that others would purchase a game) with only accidental, and not guaranteed, value.

Precisely.

Good post guys, great to see some proper reasoned arguments being put forward.

If I’m invited guest, home or server, I have been given the LEGAL RIGHT to be there.

Oh dear :bash: It’s called PERMISSION puubert, not LEGAL RIGHT. The difference being that the former can be granted and withdrawn for no reason and without notice, the latter is permanently granted, enshrined in legislation, and upholdable in a Court of Law. There’s a BIG, BIG difference.

[pgh]

I dont see any Activision servers for ET.

I know they had Q3 servers up and iD had Q3, Q3:TA, RTCW + an ET Test server. Not to sure about the current state of it all tho…

[evilsock]

My $0.02

Kendle, I’ve seen alot of your posts on SD’s forum, and over time I’ve come to appreciate that many are both informative and interesting. Your no idiot and you see things in a way that I mostly agree with, most of the time but with this issue I feel a need to break it down a little more.

I’m going to concentrate on the q3 engine and specifically ET. Let’s take a look at what you get for free;

a) Client side software
b) Server side software
c) Mods
d) Free anti-cheat protection
e) Free Maps / Campaigns
f) Free Patches and Updates

There’s probably more, but it escapes me right now.

The key point here is that for free, you’ve been given the ability to both play on other peoples servers and also create your own server,- no restrictions - none at all. To suggest that you have no legal right to play on other people’s servers is to suggest that somehow existing online ET game server admins posses different means to yourself in the hosting of an ET server - in truth, everyone has the ability to host not only Internet based MP ET games, but also LAN bassed MP ET games - out of the box and for free.

It’s more the fact that you are ‘enabled’ to provide these things for absolutely no cost (ET) that kind of negates your arguement.

The internet is a perfect demonstration of the ‘viral’ nature of human beings. Who can say why a particular server becomes massively popular over time - it’s true to say that it’s not always the ‘best’ servers in terms of spec and bandwidth that become the most popular and although there are plenty of ways to get your server ‘popular’ it’s by no means a certainty that ppl will accept you or your server and build a community around it. It’ll always be the case on free public servers that the admin(s) can do and say whatever he/she wants and do things that piss people off - but you know eventually it only takes a couple of key regs to get pissed off and leave before the whole thing comes to an end - it’s not as clear-cut as it seems.

The most important thing here is that you get client and SERVER software for free - for example, I own a DreamCast - I’m still proud of it, I’ve seen Dan Potters opensource KOS and supported the whole online scene (ever played Q3 or UT on DC?) - but you know late last year Sega shutdown their official PSO servers and made ‘zero’ provision for anyone to continue to host PSO servers. You don’t get the server software when you buy PSO. So basically thats the end of it - no one has the server sidesoftware to host PSO games therefore the game dies a death for DC. end of story really.

The flip side of the coin is that to this day there are still Q3 Arena servers running the DC specific maps allowing both PC and DC owners to continue fragging the crap out of each other till the end of time or no-one can be bothered.

My point? well my point is that it’s the ability to host your own server that’s key - the fact that some game server admins choose to behave like anuses is neither here nor there tbh. Thank fuck id are basically a very gifted group of hacker types with similar interests to you and me. As a consequence they saw no earthly reason to deny us the ability to deploy our own game servers for free (yay id). I’m willing to bet the online world of gaming would have been so very different and not nearly as popular as it is today had it not been for these trully remarkable ppl.

So whiilst your not wrong about the legailites of publicly hosted servers, I hope this kind of gives you a different prerspective on it.

-=peace=-

[Kendle]

Great post evilsock, except:-

It’s more the fact that you are ‘enabled’ to provide these things for absolutely no cost (ET) that kind of negates your arguement.

How? I’ve never questioned the ability to play online, only the legal right to join a specific server. They’re not the same thing. Being able to play online, and indeed possessing the same software as that used on the server still doesn’t give you any rights that could be upheld in a Court of Law.

So whiilst your not wrong about the legailites of publicly hosted servers

Oh, I thought you were saying that I was.

Keep trying guys. Perhaps someone could show me on what grounds they could take me to court and sue me if I denied them access to the Infamous server?