RTCW 2

(DarkangelUK) #61

If YOU pay for a server it gives YOU the right to use it, nothing more. The fact that it’s public simply means you’ve not set a password in the server config. One line in a text file on the server host doesn’t automatically give every man woman and child in the World LEGAL RIGHTS to play on that server.

You pay for the right for everyone to use it. You buy it as a public server with no password on it leaving it open ON PURPOSE for anyone and everyone

If I invite someone into my home it doesn’t automatically assign them a legal right to be there, does it? If I leave the door unlocked and they wander in uninvited, it doesn’t give them a legal right to be there.

That falls under PRIVATE server. You buy your home for you and your family only… it’s hardly a public house now is it, really bad example there.

Think about what you’re saying. If I had a legal right to play on a server I could sue the owner / operator, in a Court of Law, if they denied me that right. That’s what I mean by legal rights. I’m not saying, and never have said, that you’re not at liberty to join any public server you please, just that you have no recourse in law if you’re asked to leave or kicked, for any reason, with or without warning

And who says you can’t sue the owner of the server for not letting you play ther for no reason what so ever? Just cos it hasnt been done, doesnt mean it can’t be done. If the owner of a cinema denies someone the right to use thier cinema for no reason what so ever, than person could sue them for descrimination ( i went over this already) cos they have just as much right as anyone else to use it. Sure it may be petty to sue over being denied the same rights as others to play on that public server, but it would be petty to deny them that right over no reason. If an establishment bans someone from using thier ameneties (sp?) then it’s usually for a valid reason, which comes under conduct and maner, usually found in an aggreement or set of rules. if a user doesnt adhere to this then he can be denie the right to play there. You can’t just use something open to the public and have no rights what so ever. That goes against basic human rights :wink:

By legal rights you are breaking the law by letting anyone under 15 years of age play on your RTCW server (i dont mean yours personaly, it’s a general example). There’s no way to police this but it’s still illegal. Anyone under 15 has no rights what so ever to play on any RTCW server ( im not sure if ET kept the same age limit).

(Sick Boy) #62

Why is everyone getting complicated over this?

It’s plain and simple:

You are allowed to play online (if there are no servers: though luck for you, unless the license agreement of the game guarantees you servers)
You are allowed to host servers
You are allowed to allow/deny access to your server to anyone

It has nothing to do with legal rights.

(evilsock) #63

I was just trying to get you to see that whilst you have no legal rights to access someone else’s server, you have the means to host your own - that reason alone validates the purchase of an MP only game imho.

(DarkangelUK) #64

Sick Boy, only if you’re over 15 years of age :wink:

(Kendle) #65

No we don’t. We pay for a server. Period. There’s no public / private aspect to it. Sometimes we set a password on it, sometimes we don’t. As I explained before some server providers charge different rates for public/private (ours doesn’t as it happes) because public servers consume more bandwidth, but when you buy a server you’re not paying for a specific “type” of server, only the server itself and the bandwidth it uses.

That falls under PRIVATE server. You buy your home for you and your family only… it’s hardly a public house now is it, really bad example there.[/quote]
No, it’s a perfect example. Our server is private. We buy the server for our own personal use. It’s our little home on the web. The fact we allow others to use it sometimes is simply because we’re damn nice guys.

And who says you can’t sue the owner of the server for not letting you play ther for no reason what so ever?.. That goes against basic human rights ;)[/quote]
Hardly. Human rights are based on the principle of people having the right to do things they should reasonably be expected to be able to do. As I’ve explained before, “ownership” of the software merely enables you to install and operate the software on your PC and/or host your own server. By denying you access to my server I wouldn’t be denying you the ability to do anything “ownership” of the software would normally allow you to do. Go back and read the License agreement. How would denying you access to my server prevent you from doing any of the things the License agreement permits you to do?

To all practical intents and purposes I agree. In reality I’d probably have paid for ET (having played the demo) because the fact there are 100’s of public servers is there for anyone to see. My original point was that I don’t think Activision were in a postion to charge for it as it only contains an MP element, and as Rockford pointed out that only gives it incidental value as opposed to guaranteed value.

(Ragnar_40k) #66

@Kendle:

  1. YOU pay for the server -> YOU made it public -> YOU implicit invite all players who can access your server, to play on it.
  2. YOU pay for the server -> YOU can always password it (without giving any reason) -> YOU let only players join your server you wish.
  3. YOU pay for the server -> so YOU can ban any player you want -> nobody will sue you for that, because there is usually a good reason.

BUT: When you handle players differently, esp. when they go conform with your server rules, you not only a bad admin (I hope you not), you also discriminating people -> they COULD sue you (I hope nobody ever will consider this).

(Kendle) #67

I was going to simply quote my own post above this one…

How would denying you access to my server prevent you from doing any of the things the License agreement permits you to do?

…but this could maybe do with a little more exploration. How am I discriminating if I have every right to kick/ban/password whenever I want? If I have the “right” to do it, I don’t need a “reason”, do I?

(evilsock) #68

well, ok, but isn’t software sold with a general disclaimer as to it’s suitability or ‘fitness’ to perform a particular task? I thought that kind of legal disclaimer effectively meant that you could essentially sell something ‘as is’ ?

I think Activision could have reasonably expected to charge money for this release so long as they provided at least a minimum number of public servers - in the case of say, releasing ET for XBox, they would be obliged to - and that’s when legal rights might kick in. If your only means of playing ET on Xbox was through XBoxlive then I’d say that most likely you would have some legal rights. It also stands to reason that if Activision implemented peer-to-peer networking so that XBox’s could be chained locally (ie LAN Party) - your assumed legal rights for online play may not be so strong.

The toilets things isn’t so good an example because there are very defined laws about that - a better analogy would be a visit to a pub. So it’s Friday night, you’ve got your best togs on and hit the town. First pub you come to, there’s a bouncer on the door - all your mates get in but he takes one look at you and says ‘not tonight mate’ - that’s it, end of story - you have no legal right to challenge him - for whatever reason he sees fit, you are barred from entry - that a fair analogy of the larger public servers - clan servers are more like going to someones backgarden barbeque - so no rights what-so-ever there I’m afraid.

So, it’s fair to say that if Activision released an MP only game and intended to charge money for it’s sale, they would be obliged to provide some branded servers and on those branded server you could rightfully expect access and a TOS.

Alternatively means could be provided for professional 3rd party suppliers of servers - again in the case of ‘recognised’ public servers, you should rightfully expect fair treatment and a code of conduct for both player and admin.

Anything else is like the Wild-Wild-West.

(Kendle) #69

I think if you tried to sue Activision for there not being any servers, assuming you paid for the game, the “fit for the purpose” guarantee contained in the License agreement (and in the UK covered by Statutory Rights anyway) only means the software IS CAPABLE OF being used to play online IF there were servers to play on. You’d have to demonstrate that the software didn’t work (by providing a server and proving that it wasn’t able to connect to it and operate properly) in order to have any comeback there.

I also think it’s fair to say that if any games company released a MP only game they’d be duty bound to provide some branded servers on which to play it. In fact I guess they’d be duty bound to provide sufficient servers for everyone who buys the game to be able to play all at the same time. Which is why, I surmise, Activision didn’t charge money for ET, and I don’t know of any games company that has charged money for a purely MP game without also providing the servers.

(Ragnar_40k) #70

The discrimination has nothing to do with the License agreement at all. E.g. you could ban all Jews, resp. all players with jewish sounding names (which you will certainly never do).

(Kendle) #71

The discimination has nothing to do with the License agreement at all. E.g. you could ban all Jews, resp. all players with jewish sounding names (which you will certainly never do).[/quote]
I know, that’s why I thought that point bore further exploration.

(Ragnar_40k) #72

So we agree Kendle. You can do anything you want on your server. The only thing the admin has to attend is, that, if he made the server public, the admin has the duty (liability would be a too strong word) to handle all players equally, esp. he has to follow his own server rules.

(Kendle) #73

Agreed, the server admin has a duty to behave appropriately, but not a liability, as in a legal responsibility, to do so. Which means he couldn’t be sued if he did behave in an “inappropriate” manner (like kick you if you had a Jewish name).

PS: Off home in a couple of minutes so won’t be able to respond further to this thread till Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone! :smiley:

(Sauron|EFG) #74

I’m sure this matter is complicated by differences in laws around the world, but where I live certain behaviour is considered abuse (and can be reported to the ISP), and there are things that are illegal that you can do on a server (discrimination, spreading links to child pornography, “sharing” serial numbers, to name a few). The fact that it’s done on a game server on the Internet makes it next to impossible to prove, but that doesn’t mean it’s not punishable by law.

(Bludd) #75

Buhaha, I started to read this thread again after just waking up with my eyes all crusty and slime on my teeth, and realized to hell with it, Kendle is just as stubborn as me (which I love, hehe).

Bottom line: Nobody is ever gonna sue anybody over anything to do with a game server unless that server is hacked illegally. Now, I hereby command you all to go start your free game, find a free public server, and frag the admin himself, if possible. Follow up with the wonderful taunts that were so graciously provided by the game makers for such a purpose as to humiliate your opponent, and when the admin, face red with shame, threatens a kick, taunt him some more and say “sue me, haw haw”.

:banana:

(Sick Boy) #76

Don’t you worry about that :wink:

I should change my nick to Sick Old Man or something :smiley: