Plain and simple, a rogue/stealth archetype class such as phantom does not belong in this game. SD will continually nerf and buff this merc, or other mercs to compensate…having this archetype in the game throws off everything and I guarantee whenever they balance something merc wise, phantom will be in that discussion because he is just too different from your typical merc with a gun.
They need to remove him for good, refund the credits and the $$. Put someone else in.
[quote=“laudatoryLunch;52189”]
Also why do such comments come from people who obviously never played Phantom in their life? You could onehit stab only the weakest Mercs (Proxy/Aura/Sparks/Vassili). Nobody is crying about Vassili being a camp-ass and not helping the team because his job is to kill people so they don’t reach the objective. Now Phantom is doing the same but from CQC instead from the other side of the map, and people run berzerk. [/quote]
100x THIS
This guy gets a fucking medal, if you haven’t played Phantom you cannot have any say in balance. Sorry, but that just screams “it killed me so nerf it please”.
They just nerfed him in every single aspect when he really wasn’t that OP to begin with. Talk about overkill, seriously.
Nerfing his health, halving his shield and fixing Katana hitframes would have been enough.
Imo its all about positioning and situational awareness.
That goes for every merc ofcourse but if a phantom player have these 2 traits, can utilize the cloak better and have great results. And also just because you have a katana doesnt mean you should only use that. Its so easy to counter phantoms that run towards you to melee you, and keep trying to do so even after you’ve opened fire at them…
[quote=“SonDekan;52207”]Imo its all about positioning and situational awareness.
That goes for every merc ofcourse but if a phantom player have these 2 traits, can utilize the cloak better and have great results. And also just because you have a katana doesnt mean you should only use that. Its so easy to counter phantoms that run towards you to melee you, and keep trying to do so even after you’ve opened fire at them…[/quote]
Even if that is absolutely true, it doesn’t warrant a nerf to ALL melee weapons in the game.
You don’t fuck with every merc to fix one issue, an issue that was honestly pretty stupid and impractical. The Katana’s damage frames were fixed, that should have been enough.
I’m not even “going there” with saying it’s open beta, since it doesn’t matter. Many games will release a new character/class/merc, and then find out that it needs changes. If you can’t handle a merc being changed within its first week or two, stop buying them within the first week or two. Claiming that you got baited into buying it or that this is somehow “shady” or a “cash grab” is pretty ridiculous.
[quote=“Cesmode;52193”]Plain and simple, a rogue/stealth archetype class such as phantom does not belong in this game. SD will continually nerf and buff this merc, or other mercs to compensate…having this archetype in the game throws off everything and I guarantee whenever they balance something merc wise, phantom will be in that discussion because he is just too different from your typical merc with a gun.
They need to remove him for good, refund the credits and the $$. Put someone else in.
[/quote]
SD made him. SD made him popular in trailers. Who are you to say he doesn’t belong in that game? TF2 is also objective-based in some way in some modes. You say, Spy doesn’t belong in the game? It isn’t a good way to express his opinions as facts.
[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52209”][quote=“SonDekan;52207”]Imo its all about positioning and situational awareness.
That goes for every merc ofcourse but if a phantom player have these 2 traits, can utilize the cloak better and have great results. And also just because you have a katana doesnt mean you should only use that. Its so easy to counter phantoms that run towards you to melee you, and keep trying to do so even after you’ve opened fire at them…[/quote]
Even if that is absolutely true, it doesn’t warrant a nerf to ALL melee weapons in the game.
You don’t fuck with every merc to fix one issue, an issue that was honestly pretty stupid and impractical. The Katana’s damage frames were fixed, that should have been enough.
[/quote]
Yeah, i completely agree. The melee nerfs where overkill. The hit-frame fix was perfect.
What i said about Phantom though, i didnt meant to tie it to the nerfs. It was how i saw phantom as a class, even before the nerfs.
To be honest, (and im gonna receive some hate for it) Phantom never seemed OP to me.
The tankiness was a bit unfit for an assassin class indeed, but i used to check if a Phantom is on the enemy team, and keep an eye for him. Or pick Vassily when i had him on my squad and completely negate him.
When he managed to flank and stab me, was ok since thats what he does (dont get me wrong i still smashed the keyboard out of frustration but not because he is OP, more rather cause i let him). Its like being in a room and a fragger toss a cooked nade and annihilates the room. Thats what fragger does.
Phantom is still just fine for “skilled” players. Learn to play it, you never had to before because it was so ridiculously overpowered.
Dirty Bomb is supposed to be a gunplay based game. The main outcry on Phantom was a merc being so breaking away from the core gameplay.
The recent patch pretty much brought the game back to very strong core values of encouraging gunplay by nerfing melee.
Learn to use Phantom as a skilled flanker with strong SMG options, not as an invisible katana.
[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52204”][quote=“laudatoryLunch;52189”]
Also why do such comments come from people who obviously never played Phantom in their life? You could onehit stab only the weakest Mercs (Proxy/Aura/Sparks/Vassili). Nobody is crying about Vassili being a camp-ass and not helping the team because his job is to kill people so they don’t reach the objective. Now Phantom is doing the same but from CQC instead from the other side of the map, and people run berzerk. [/quote]
100x THIS
This guy gets a fucking medal, if you haven’t played Phantom you cannot have any say in balance. Sorry, but that just screams “it killed me so nerf it please”.[/quote]
Two things concerning the Vasilli example:
You have a much greater chance at seeing vassilli before he shoots your headoff. He isn’t cloaked…you can see him. Granted, you could sort of see phantoms cloak but barely…its a bit easier now.
Vasilli heartbeat monitor. Paints a picture where the baddies are. That to me provides a bit of support to your team. That heartbeat monitor isn’t just for you, its for your team.
[quote=“Ardez;52229”]Dirty Bomb is supposed to be a gunplay based game. The main outcry on Phantom was a merc being so breaking away from the core gameplay.
The recent patch pretty much brought the game back to very strong core values of encouraging gunplay by nerfing melee.
Learn to use Phantom as a skilled flanker with strong SMG options, not as an invisible katana.[/quote]
Then what’s the point of melee at all? Don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous that now you have difficulty to even finish your opponents? Let’s not lie to ourselves having 1 character that was decent( Noticed how I didn’t even say good?) at melee can’t be considered like ‘‘breaking away fro the core gameplay’’. It’s just flat out ridiculous that a aspect of the game just got transformed to a cosmetic decision.
Why people compare Vassilli or Fragger to Phantom is outrageous. Admit it, your one-kill hit stick has been nerfed and you can no longer top the K/D meters by stealthing around. Your ‘OP build’ is nerfed. This happens in every game, MMOs, ARP, first person shooters…people have an OP build which gets nerfed and then theres an outcry because they can no longer sleep through the game.
Fragger vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Fragger coming 99% of the time unless you set up shop in a position where a fragger was already behind you.
-Fragger is slower than Phantom(much slower).
-You see the grenade being tossed by a fragger, you had a much much harder time seeing a phantom coming at you with a one-shot kitana with no time to react, unlike if you see a fragger nade. Hell, didn’t they also make his nades more noticeable via sound?
Vasilli vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Vasilli camping a spot. The only time you have a difficult time seeing vasilli is if they are quick-sniping you via straffing in and out of field of view . Believe it or not, this takes skill, and if they manage a headshot doing so, it takes even more skill. Vs a Phantom that stealths right to your face and slices the big target in front of him that didn’t see him coming. Less skill with the melee, and less visability.
-Vasilli does have a support ability, believe it or not…heartbeat sensor which can be seen by the team. Team ability, in my opinion. Phantom has nothing to boost his teammates abilities.
-Vasilli has less HP than Phantom.
[quote=“Ardez;52229”]Dirty Bomb is supposed to be a gunplay based game. The main outcry on Phantom was a merc being so breaking away from the core gameplay.
The recent patch pretty much brought the game back to very strong core values of encouraging gunplay by nerfing melee.
Learn to use Phantom as a skilled flanker with strong SMG options, not as an invisible katana.[/quote]
Yup. This is what I even see being stronger than the katana. Being able to pick up first shots on single targets out of the cloak.
The issue is that people have paid real money for something (Phantom in his previous state), and now that’s been taken away (He’s as usefull as tits on a bull now).
You simply cannot release something, bait people into buying it and then change what people have purchased once you’ve reached your $$$ goal.
You either need to return him to his previous state or offer unhappy customers a refund. It’s as simple as that.
[quote=“TheSalt;52244”]The issue is that people have paid real money for something (Phantom in his previous state), and now that’s been taken away (He’s as usefull as tits on a bull now).
You simply cannot release something, bait people into buying it and then change what people have purchased once you’ve reached your $$$ goal.
You either need to return him to his previous state or offer unhappy customers a refund. It’s as simple as that.[/quote]
Says who?
[quote=“Alphafox;52239”][quote=“Ardez;52229”]Dirty Bomb is supposed to be a gunplay based game. The main outcry on Phantom was a merc being so breaking away from the core gameplay.
The recent patch pretty much brought the game back to very strong core values of encouraging gunplay by nerfing melee.
Learn to use Phantom as a skilled flanker with strong SMG options, not as an invisible katana.[/quote]
Then what’s the point of melee at all? Don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous that now you have difficulty to even finish your opponents? Let’s not lie to ourselves having 1 character that was decent( Noticed how I didn’t even say good?) at melee can’t be considered like ‘‘breaking away fro the core gameplay’’. It’s just flat out ridiculous that a aspect of the game just got transformed to a cosmetic decision. [/quote]
This is a good point to remember to those saying a melee centric merc goes against Dirty Bomb’s design.
We have to use our knife to finish enemies quickly if we want to deny a revive, so what is wrong with a Merc who can use cloak, to get behind enemy lines, and effectively kill enemies and finish them before a Medic has a chance to revive them, or better yet killing the Medic and cutting the head of the snake so to speak.
The answer, nothing, there’s nothing wrong with it other than people don’t like change.
[quote=“Cesmode;52240”]Why people compare Vassilli or Fragger to Phantom is outrageous. Admit it, your one-kill hit stick has been nerfed and you can no longer top the K/D meters by stealthing around. Your ‘OP build’ is nerfed. This happens in every game, MMOs, ARP, first person shooters…people have an OP build which gets nerfed and then theres an outcry because they can no longer sleep through the game.
[/quote]
Please understand the following
[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52246”][quote=“Alphafox;52239”][quote=“Ardez;52229”]Dirty Bomb is supposed to be a gunplay based game. The main outcry on Phantom was a merc being so breaking away from the core gameplay.
The recent patch pretty much brought the game back to very strong core values of encouraging gunplay by nerfing melee.
Learn to use Phantom as a skilled flanker with strong SMG options, not as an invisible katana.[/quote]
Then what’s the point of melee at all? Don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous that now you have difficulty to even finish your opponents? Let’s not lie to ourselves having 1 character that was decent( Noticed how I didn’t even say good?) at melee can’t be considered like ‘‘breaking away fro the core gameplay’’. It’s just flat out ridiculous that a aspect of the game just got transformed to a cosmetic decision. [/quote]
This is a good point to remember to those saying a melee centric merc goes against Dirty Bomb’s design.
We have to use our knife to finish enemies quickly if we want to deny a revive, so what is wrong with a Merc who can use cloak, to get behind enemy lines, and effectively kill enemies and finish them before a Medic has a chance to revive them, or better yet killing the Medic and cutting the head of the snake so to speak.
The answer, nothing, there’s nothing wrong with it other than people don’t like change.
[/quote]
Nobody is required to use melee to finish, it is just encouraged. In particular from long range you need to use bullets if you want to finish.
There is a badge for getting melee kills because getting melee kills is supposed to be hard. Judging by the reward for the badge it is supposed to be roughly as hard as a triple kill. I think that post patch the balance, at least as far as the badges go, is closer to accurate. If the devs had wanted Phantom to primary the Katana, why would they give him the option of not getting one or giving him a primary?
The katana is supposed to be a cool little thing that some mercs get. Along that line it is still the best melee weapon in the game. It was not supposed to be a primary weapon.
[quote=“Cesmode;52240”]Why people compare Vassilli or Fragger to Phantom is outrageous.
Fragger vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Fragger coming 99% of the time unless you set up shop in a position where a fragger was already behind you.
-Fragger is slower than Phantom(much slower).
-You see the grenade being tossed by a fragger, you had a much much harder time seeing a phantom coming at you with a one-shot kitana with no time to react, unlike if you see a fragger nade. Hell, didn’t they also make his nades more noticeable via sound?
Vasilli vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Vasilli camping a spot. The only time you have a difficult time seeing vasilli is if they are quick-sniping you via straffing in and out of field of view . Believe it or not, this takes skill, and if they manage a headshot doing so, it takes even more skill. Vs a Phantom that stealths right to your face and slices the big target in front of him that didn’t see him coming. Less skill with the melee, and less visability.
-Vasilli does have a support ability, believe it or not…heartbeat sensor which can be seen by the team. Team ability, in my opinion. Phantom has nothing to boost his teammates abilities.
-Vasilli has less HP than Phantom.
[/quote]
It’s just 100% logic to compare mercs that have the same role. Their role is to kill, this is why people compare them.
Your point is? Phantom can clearly be seen too, if you have situational awareness of course. The same thing can be said about Phantom. 99% of the time if someone is behind you he can get the kill, your argument doesn’t stand on anything sorry.
All the mercs have different speed, what’s the point of that argument?
Any decent player will know to cook their frags, you can see them but if you saw them that mean you are already dead, so once again your argument doesn’t show anything.The sound was never made more noticeable.
You said it yourself: ‘‘Phantom that stealths right to your face and slices the big target in front of him that didn’t see him coming.’’ are you blaming people stupidity on the Phantom players? If you have no situational awareness once again, you deserve to be killed.
Huh alright? Fragger doesn’t have a support ability, Rhino doesn’t have a support ability, Nader doesn’t have a support ability, their jobs once again is to kill, not to support. Killing by itself is making the game advance
Your point is?
Not sure of what you are trying to say, are you saying that all mercs should be a excat copy of each other? Because this is why I understood from that.
They have the same role, but do it with different tools, so that’s why people compare them, nothing complicated here.
[quote=“Alphafox;52251”][quote=“Cesmode;52240”]Why people compare Vassilli or Fragger to Phantom is outrageous.
Fragger vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Fragger coming 99% of the time unless you set up shop in a position where a fragger was already behind you.
-Fragger is slower than Phantom(much slower).
-You see the grenade being tossed by a fragger, you had a much much harder time seeing a phantom coming at you with a one-shot kitana with no time to react, unlike if you see a fragger nade. Hell, didn’t they also make his nades more noticeable via sound?
Vasilli vs Phantom:
-You can see, clear as day, a Vasilli camping a spot. The only time you have a difficult time seeing vasilli is if they are quick-sniping you via straffing in and out of field of view . Believe it or not, this takes skill, and if they manage a headshot doing so, it takes even more skill. Vs a Phantom that stealths right to your face and slices the big target in front of him that didn’t see him coming. Less skill with the melee, and less visability.
-Vasilli does have a support ability, believe it or not…heartbeat sensor which can be seen by the team. Team ability, in my opinion. Phantom has nothing to boost his teammates abilities.
-Vasilli has less HP than Phantom.
[/quote]
It’s just 100% logic to compare mercs that have the same role. Their role is to kill, this is why people compare them.
Your point is? Phantom can clearly be seen too, if you have situational awareness of course. The same thing can be said about Phantom. 99% of the time if someone is behind you he can get the kill, your argument doesn’t stand on anything sorry.
All the mercs have different speed, what’s the point of that argument?
Any decent player will know to cook their frags, you can see them but if you saw them that mean you are already dead, so once again your argument doesn’t show anything.The sound was never made more noticeable.
You said it yourself: ‘‘Phantom that stealths right to your face and slices the big target in front of him that didn’t see him coming.’’ are you blaming people stupidity on the Phantom players? If you have no situational awareness once again, you deserve to be killed.
Huh alright? Fragger doesn’t have a support ability, Rhino doesn’t have a support ability, Nader doesn’t have a support ability, their jobs once again is to kill, not to support. Killing by itself is making the game advance
Your point is?
Not sure of what you are trying to say, are you saying that all mercs should be a excat copy of each other? Because this is why I understood from that.
They have the same role, but do it with different tools, so that’s why people compare them, nothing complicated here.[/quote]
One thing that people seem to forget is that Phantom fills a Recon slot in the merc roles. The same slot that Vassili and Redeye are members of. You should not be comparing Phantom to Fragger, Nader and Rhino as he is NOT intended to fulfill the same role.