Rahdo's words - what happened here?

(DarkangelUK) #541

[QUOTE=Rahdo;360481]having one button do everything makes the game more accessible because we take care of inventory management. In a game where players are asked to pay attention to a LOT more incoming information and tactical situations than most other FPSs out there, allowing them spend less time worrying about how tab A can fit into slot B frees them up to worry about other stuff that they’re not used to thinking about.

Hardcore prefer to have that extra level of control because they’re used to playing at that level. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t consider myself a ‘hardcore’ player, but I believe the short term inconvenience of actually learning something gets outweighed by the long term gain of full control over your actions. It should be quite obvious that the 1-button-does-all method hasn’t been embraced all that much, and the amount of negativity coming from Wolfenstein should have been an indication of the path it could be heading towards. In my view it causes more problems than it solves (and apparently the only problem it solves is not having to learn something), and in turn actually makes the game less accessible as the only thing that remains is frustration when you can’t do what you want to do. Accessible, sure, in the beginning it may do that, but once a player has gotten used to it, it’s going to reach a point where it starts to annoy them.

It seems the only thing that was considered was how to ease people into the game, but not how that same method will affect them as a player once they want to shake off those training wheels, but aren’t allowed to.

(Donnovan) #542

I never argue about you guys (SD) because i know you are always working hard. SD team likes what they do. I remember to see in game job aplications the requeriment at first place “A passion for games”. This is not someone trying to make you happy and hopeful, it’s a requeriment like “Advanced AI programing” and others.

Good to know Rahdo have a wife. So he knows how to love, and can do his work with love.

He learned to love with his wife or with games?

See how beautifull it is? You can learn to love making war games?

(tokamak) #543

Three platforms simultaneously, shorter schedule, first time on consoles, revamp system to work equally well with controllers, completely new publishing partner, chaning market expectations, etc. etc.

In other words the budget didn’t match the goal and now the reputation suffers. I always thought that the whole ‘We eat COD’ thing used to refer to a game, but apparently Ark denizens are just proud of their diet.

I hope you can understand why we don’t have the resources or time to fix them now, post shipping, when there’s no budget to get any of this done. We are improving what we can (see earlier in this thread and post to get a better understanding of how that works).

I understand it, the PC is treated as a second-hand platform. What I don’t understand is how a multi-platform game is saddled with a single-platform budget. If you’re going to try to rake in the profits of such a wide customer base then it shouldn’t be difficult to justify a budget that reflects the potential profits.

The PC game is now nothing but a blatant attempt to cash in on the side. Of course I’ll never get the true numbers but I bet the amount of money ear-marked to convert this game to the PC was a joke compared to the costs a similar PC-game would get. This makes Brink for the PC a low risk, low cost production that could’ve gone either way without much loss.

And while I can’t talk about specifics, what makes you think that ETQW ensured a rosey and risk free future for our company?

Rewarding creative and tactical play. That’s what hooked people behind W:ET for so long and that’s what makes ETQW have a similar playerbase to Brink despite lower sales, lower advertising and being around for years. Hooked players convince other players to buy the game, hooked players wait with bathed breath for the next instalment.

Treating players like this is short-sighted, you cash in on the success of the last game. Brink’s sales were partially due to the ET(QW)'s success. I don’t like to gloat, but it will be bittersweet to see how far Bethesda will go on with DLC content. It’s not something one wishes to be proven right on but it’s really a layman’s marketing mistake that needs to be felt in order to get the company to wake up.

(Padinn) #544

In my opinion what killed this game was not the game play, but the bugs. The video performance for ATI users was atrocious at release. The game had some stability issues as well. Last time I checked ATI had larger market share then Nvidia. Not having high performance in a shooter will guarantee it a quick death.

I would have like to see more then 8 maps at launch. I think the time invested in the story sequences may have been better utilized increasing performance and stability. I agree with many reviewers who felt the game feels unfocused. It’s a wonderful MP game, it truly is, but those SP elements…I haven’t even bothered to try it once.

Game-play wise, I believe it was a mistake having ability unlocks. I think all class should have all of its abilities all of the time, or at least we should have been able to select a certain amount of those abilities from the get-go. It would be great to be able to do this without needing to leave the server as well.

My personal feeling is that “leveling” to get abilities in an FPS is just a cheap way to say there is more content then there is. Yes, it adds a reason to keep coming back and a nice reward, but you could easily achieve that by restricting the types of outfits your character gets.

However, I will say that overall I think the gameplay is excellent. It’s just too bad that the game was released in such a poor state with regards to performance and stability. If there is any feedback you can give to your publisher, my hope is that would be it. If you guys had a three week open beta this whole situation could have been avoided.

As for all the talk of DLC, I’m willing to bet the reason it’s taking so long is because there is no incentive for them to release it at this point. They will probably never make very much money off of it, especially since it will be given away for free to those who will actually use it.

(gooey79) #545

It’s a little concerning to see that the DLC still hasn’t been certified.

In the immortal words of the Global Defence Force ‘Oh Dear’.

(wolfnemesis75) #546

[Xbox]
Lobbies would be a great addition if added somehow later in conjunction with the Clan Support just to add some more ease of play for teams of friends. Just added ease of entrance with less frustration. How many more maps do you envision releasing for Brink, Rahdo? I know many who are really looking forward to an expanded map selection based on the stat site map. PC has many issues which are being addressed. Where-as console seems to have a bit more positives to look towards. How much emphasis do you envision in expanding the console gameplay further? Do you have a plan to increase levels, abilities, and content beyond the Agents of Change?

20 total maps for Brink by this time next year would be really something special. Especially since the content is episodic in nature in terms of adding to the storyline, and not just a theme of maps like most other games. Or will there be a scaled-back approach to additional content because of all the problems on PC or separate content entirely? (No offense meant)

On a side note: although I am usually not a fan of ranks insignia in other games: Would adding some kind of rank insignia system work well in Brink, since there is a level cap? Based on XP. So that you could rank up each character on the Ark that you have and create a kind of game card for each character. Sounds geeky, I know, but could add some replay value for those who don’t like the lvl cap and the zeros you get once you reach the top level. Or even some kind of Team-based moniker. Like Demolition Man. Mechanic. Spy. Or a Brink specific ranking rather than traditional military ranks. Just additional little rewards for continued play.

I want this to be clear: I am hoping things improve for every platform. It is just a matter of time, because the foundation is there, it just needs some fixes.

(kilL_888) #547

[QUOTE=wolfnemesis75;360491]
20 total maps for Brink by this time next year would be really something special. [/QUOTE]

dont want to bring your hopes down, but according to rahdo there are ~3000-5000 people playing brink right now on all platforms. steamcount multiplied by 5, see last statement by rahdo.

even if all current players would buy a dlc for 10€ this, it wouldnt be enough money to pay the salaries for the employees. take 50000 for 70 employees for 1 year. thats nothing.

this time next year everyone is playing either battlefield3 or mw3. there wont be enough players on consoles to get a match started.

(sereNADE) #548

While you may be proud of BRINK I think the majority of players (guess I had better fall into the console/pc distinction trap and say I am talking about both console and pc players) wish you would rethink how you negotiate all elements needing “accessibility”. Just putting that on a better track and of course getting some ui people… well, next time I think you all will have made by your hands something you could be magnitudes more proud of than BRINK. A different approach to accessibility will have the most significant effect (a domino one) in all key areas of gameplay.

(Kendle) #549

[QUOTE=Rahdo;360481]Kendle, a very astute and well thought out post. I agree with you in spirit, but not in reality. The reality of the games industry is that players are getting more and more used to having their hand held every step they take, being told where to go and what to do every step of the way, with autoaim systems doing all the heavy lifting and leaving htem with the satisfaction of thinking “i killed him!” because they pulled a trigger.

We didn’t want that with Brink, and I don’t believe we delivered that, but we did still have to create a game for players who are expecting that. So like i said, it’s a fine line. And when you’ve got two audiences that are so radically different in their expectations, and one audience is dwarfed by the other, you do have to make concessions for the bigger group.
[/QUOTE]

I assume the 2 audiences you’re refering to are PC and console and that you have the market research to back up that statement, because that’s certainly NOT how I see the PC market or their expectations (and I think you have enough feedback from PC players to know I’m not just speaking for myself here).

And the fact the game bombed on console as well points to even console players not being as dumb and slow to learn as you thought they were.

I think you’ve aimed this game at an audience that doesn’t exist in the numbers you thought they did. I think you’ve underestimated your audience big time, and the state of the player base just 2 months after release is the price you’re paying for having such a low opinion of them.

(Seiniyta) #550

[QUOTE=wolfnemesis75;360491][Xbox]
Lobbies would be a great addition if added somehow later in conjunction with the Clan Support just to add some more ease of play for teams of friends. Just added ease of entrance with less frustration. How many more maps do you envision releasing for Brink, Rahdo? I know many who are really looking forward to an expanded map selection based on the stat site map. PC has many issues which are being addressed. Where-as console seems to have a bit more positives to look towards. How much emphasis do you envision in expanding the console gameplay further? Do you have a plan to increase levels, abilities, and content beyond the Agents of Change?

20 total maps for Brink by this time next year would be really something special. Especially since the content is episodic in nature in terms of adding to the storyline, and not just a theme of maps like most other games. Or will there be a scaled-back approach to additional content because of all the problems on PC or separate content entirely? (No offense meant)

On a side note: although I am usually not a fan of ranks insignia in other games: Would adding some kind of rank insignia system work well in Brink, since there is a level cap? Based on XP. So that you could rank up each character on the Ark that you have and create a kind of game card for each character. Sounds geeky, I know, but could add some replay value for those who don’t like the lvl cap and the zeros you get once you reach the top level. Or even some kind of Team-based moniker. Like Demolition Man. Mechanic. Spy. Or a Brink specific ranking rather than traditional military ranks. Just additional little rewards for continued play.

I want this to be clear: I am hoping things improve for every platform. It is just a matter of time, because the foundation is there, it just needs some fixes.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see the rank from ETQW make a return, it shouldn’t give you a advantage leveling those things up, but like an extra skin for your weapon or an extra colour scheme for a costume. And of course having the emblem and title in your name when playing is cool too :slight_smile:

"200/200 explosives successful planted and detonated! 5000/5000 objectives defended! that kind of stuff

(tokamak) #551

I’m going with this. I realise that I belong to a minor sub group within the audience, I don’t have any overview how the gamer market looks like for real but I’m sure they’re not as dumb as Brink suggests they are. And well, the lower sales tend to back that up I think.

But again, I don’t have any sources, that’s what puzzles me the most, how did SD get so cock-sure about their target audience?

(wolfnemesis75) #552

[QUOTE=Seiniyta;360496]I would love to see the rank from ETQW make a return, it shouldn’t give you a advantage leveling those things up, but like an extra skin for your weapon or an extra colour scheme for a costume. And of course having the emblem and title in your name when playing is cool too :slight_smile:

"200/200 explosives successful planted and detonated! 5000/5000 objectives defended! that kind of stuff[/QUOTE]

Yes. That would be very cool.

(Shinigami) #553

HAH!
I have NEVER, not once, hit freeplay and joined a match that has 8 players in it. i find it hard to believe that some people have trouble finding space for groups of people. The problem isnt ‘lobbies’ its the matchmaking pre-game. I am a very casual player and i love playing with randoms. Brink is literally the only game that i have ever seen that does not have a pre game matchmaking system. COD, Halo, BF, Crysis, Homefront (the list goes on), all these games have it.

(thesuzukimethod) #554

this thread is on :expressionless:|

(gooey79) #555

[QUOTE=Shinigami;360499]HAH!
I have NEVER, not once, hit freeplay and joined a match that has 8 players in it. i find it hard to believe that some people have trouble finding space for groups of people. The problem isnt ‘lobbies’ its the matchmaking pre-game. I am a very casual player and i love playing with randoms. Brink is literally the only game that i have ever seen that does not have a pre game matchmaking system. COD, Halo, BF, Crysis, Homefront (the list goes on), all these games have it.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

On PS3, I can’t find any games on the following match settings:

  • [li]Advanced[/li][li]Competition[/li][li]Old Skool[/li][li]Big Teams

On Standard, I get into a match. That’s it. One mode…

It never seems to have more than 5 players, including me though. In theory, the ‘bot fills a slot’ thing is fine. In practice, I don’t want to spend all my time online playing bots. That’s why I play online.

I worry that if there’s 5 times the playerbase on any console platform over PC, that the game is fundamentally flawed on a basic level if it can’t find 8-16 players and put them together.

Or, am I doing it wrong?

(pinion120) #556

<< PC player feedback as follows >>

Great reply by Rahdo, and honestly if it had happened sooner I think there would be far less unrest in the community. Why remain silent for so long until now?

I am one of the Brink players that really enjoys the game. I also played ETQW and yes I recognize in many ways ETQW has more depth. However, I have found countless threads of depth and complexity in Brink. But you have to play for a while to pick up on them. Things such as the command post “metagame” that operatives play - going behind lines to cap posts, class switch, and upgrade them. This makes a huge difference for your team, and is a role that is not readily apparent to a newcomer to the game. The PC weapon tweaks have been great, and I find the weapons all feel “meaty” and good now.

Honestly I can’t quite place why Brink has not taken off on PC, but if I had to venture I’d say LACK OF VOIP was critical. Seriously, game communities live and die by the players within them. When I play Brink online, and every match is silent, well after a while every game feels the same.

VOIP seems to be working now, but it has been so long without it, that most players don’t seem to bother. The decision to have VOIP off by default or neutered is one that really makes me sad, because I think the game with strong VOIP would have been able to keep its legs much longer.

I will say however that I know a lot of players who are basically “retired” until DLC hits. If the DLC delivers in spades, I could see a very nice boost to the community taking place. Until then, I will be here playing Brink and enjoying it.

(howie) #557

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;360483]I wouldn’t consider myself a ‘hardcore’ player, but I believe the short term inconvenience of actually learning something gets outweighed by the long term gain of full control over your actions. It should be quite obvious that the 1-button-does-all method hasn’t been embraced all that much, and the amount of negativity coming from Wolfenstein should have been an indication of the path it could be heading towards. In my view it causes more problems than it solves (and apparently the only problem it solves is not having to learn something), and in turn actually makes the game less accessible as the only thing that remains is frustration when you can’t do what you want to do. Accessible, sure, in the beginning it may do that, but once a player has gotten used to it, it’s going to reach a point where it starts to annoy them.

It seems the only thing that was considered was how to ease people into the game, but not how that same method will affect them as a player once they want to shake off those training wheels, but aren’t allowed to.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post.

The number of concessions made in Brink were were unnecessary and underestimated even the most casual fps players. Online FPS fans can aim. They can also select items. I honestly believe the only thing achieved was alienating your PC fanbase while preventing console players from seeing how involved and fun a game of this type can be. For years I played RTCW and ET in clans and during that time I played along side and against kids as young as 12 and with adults in their 50s - none had trouble grasping the basics. I once merced for a team that had a mum in her late 40s in it - she was running around, dropping med packs and picking up downed teammates with a speed that simply wouldn’t be possible with the dumbed down controls we have in Brink. It’s the scope for improvement and broad range of skills required that keeps games like this alive and in taking away from both we end up with a diluted experience. It’s like bowling with the inflatable kiddy bumpers up.

(FireWorks) #558

Many discussions here were about how simplified certain things (F buttonactions,…) were and then they were justified.

After all my experiences with ETQW and its forum discussions after release… After all of Splash Damage’s experiences with ETQW, I dont understand why there was just no real effort in making better tutorials. Integrating them in the gameplay.

You made videos for the interested. I bet high values that most players didnt see them, and those who did, comment on them as overloaded.

You made challenges that are small tutorials, that are not mandatory. And those were by far too hard for newcommers! I felt urged to do my very first video for a two star challenge after some complaints that its impossible… Thats the second stage of first challenge???

Anyone in this team got the slightest clue of learning psychology? Or how to smoothly fit in a tutorial?

Instead of teaching a proper game to new players, you chose the “dark” (easier and cheaper) path. You simplified the game in many aspects and even then failed to properly train your audience. Granted, its a high art to make good tutorials, but if you judge your game as “overwhelming” yourself, you should put more effort into teaching it to new players. That “makes the game more accessible” to a larger audience.

Just as a small reminder…
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2921-Tutorials-101

Why I posted this here? Because I couldnt convience a friend to buy brink, because he read (on different sources), it was too hard to get into the game. That was actually his major concern and he didnt want me to show him all the things to know… and thats what also drove my studying collegues away on ETQW before. They never felt, how great these games could have been…

tl;dr
very good and proper tutorials fix “hard to learn” games, you dont need to “simplify” them (especially if you already have a community loving it!!!)

(BiigDaddyDellta) #559

This has turned out to be the best thread on the site, and once again Rhado is proving himself to be the best Representative SD could ask for he is a credit to his company and most of all himself.

I only wonder if any time soon we can have some solid news on the DLC?

(Kendle) #560

Well it’s 28 pages which can be summed up in 2 phrases :-

  1. SD assumed that everyone buying this game would be idiots
  2. They don’t have any money left to improve it for those of us that are not