I’d rather have them invest their time and money in a new game then trying to patch BRINK, since I doubt it would get much better anyway.
EDIT:
How is BRINK on a console? (PS3)
Is it any good on there? I need some MP games you see…
Playing BRINK on a console on the couch might make it a better experience?
It did for Quakelive. It would solve the custom overgrowth that poisoned the playerbase so much.
[QUOTE=Crytiqal;360355]I’d rather have them invest their time and money in a new game then trying to patch BRINK, since I doubt it would get much better anyway.
EDIT:
How is BRINK on a console? (PS3)
Is it any good on there? I need some MP games you see…
Playing BRINK on a console on the couch might make it a better experience?[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, since it’s clearly built for consoles; it plays better there than on PC. I’m on PS3 too, and I’d say if you can get a copy for less than £20, it’s worth it. Easy Platinum, too.
Ok I meay be flamed for what I’m about to say but it has to be said. there is a reason most console gamers dislike pc gamers, because of the LEET attitude and sense of entitlement they feel devs owe them. and what exactly does a developer owe you beside a working game and support interms of a patch here and there? nothing at all. I’ve seen ppl complain that brink sucks because there is no sdk. or support for a graphics card u spent oh so much for or that the map pacs wont be free. why do they have to give u those things? besides purchasing the game (for 10 dollars less than console players might i add) pc gamers support developers the least in terms of monitary gains for the company.
all I hear is complaints about all these things you are begging for for free yet if they gave u all of those and lost alot of man hours and no pay to give it. you would b!tch if they released a map pack or 2 u would have to pay for. … most devs give u these things out of their devotion to u yet pc gamers support developers with revenue only on the first purchase… I’m sorry if i were developing games pc would be an afterthought platform… btw i actually play multiple games on pc but came from the console originally , maybe thats why i have a diff attitude.
because before there were consoles, PAYING for DLC was unheared off.
There was also something like a modding community which would mean endless supply of free content.
Thanks to the console generation the PC gamers now have to pay for stuff they got for free before.
Also, if a PC gamer spends thousands of dollars on a high end system, they prolly want to play a game that utilizes the hardware on which they spend their money to the fullest.
If you pay hundreds of dollars for a high end PC, and you get a crappy console port which barely runs smooth you’d be disappointed and mad aswell. Especially, had there been no consoles, the game WOULD have been made to run properly on PC’s.
[QUOTE=Crytiqal;360391]because before there were consoles, PAYING for DLC was unheared off.
Thanks to the console generation the PC gamers now have to pay for stuff they got for free before.
Also, if a PC gamer spends thousands of dollars on a high end system, they prolly want to play a game that utilizes the hardware on which they spend their money to the fullest.
If you pay hundreds of dollars for a high end PC, and you get a crappy console port which barely runs smooth you’d be disappointed and mad aswell. Especially, had there been no consoles, the game WOULD have been made to run properly on PC’s.[/QUOTE] and thats just the thing … seems spoiled to me . most ppl want an sdk not to actually tinker w it but to dl someone elses hard work on a game mode or map …and whose fault is it to pay thousands for a gaming rig just for a little prettier graphix? ur high end gaming rig doesnt put more money in devs pockets , I mean think about it. if they create a game (the first crysis) that can only be played proper w a friggin nasa super computer they are severly limiting their player base and thus their revenue. most companies go multiplat because their player base on certain exclusive platforms do not get supported like it should period. If ur boss came in and told u to work ot for no pay but there was a job next door thats offering u better security and money where would u go?
Euh yea, thats exactly why someones would do this “hard work”. 
How is that spoiled? People enjoy making stuff for the community.
So other people can download it and enjoy, durp
Also, PC controls and other stuff (accuracy, speed etc) also get dumbed down
[QUOTE=Crytiqal;360394]Euh yea, thats exactly why someones would do this “hard work”.
How is that spoiled? People enjoy making stuff for the community.
So other people can download it and enjoy, durp
Also, PC controls and other stuff (accuracy, speed etc) also get dumbed down[/QUOTE]I honestly dont think it gets dumbed down for a shooter… an rts yes maybe. imo i think its way easier to point n click w a mouse to get a head shot than using a controller. and what i mean is the hard work it take to creaet a consumer based sdk for something that probably took millions to create. an sdk is never the true “from the ground up” program but a dumbed down version for the masses . and it takes time and effort to create one specially if ist a small dev team like SD
You don’t think BRINK got dumbed down because it was developed on consoles aswell?
=_="
I don’t feel like it to repost the entire forum for you but it’s pretty obvious a lot of things got cut and adjusted in favor of the consoles.
[QUOTE=Crytiqal;360397]You don’t think BRINK got dumbed down because it was developed on consoles aswell?
=_="
I don’t feel like it to repost the entire forum for you but it’s pretty obvious a lot of things got cut and adjusted in favor of the consoles.[/QUOTE]
reading the forums i do think there were a few things left out to cut costs. but that isnt my issue , its the why didnt i get _____ for free you suck SD posts i have issues with. it will always be an issue if a company goes multiplat. all i can say is support you dev mor so going multiplat wont be a thought of theirs . look at WOW the are pc only but mainly because of the support that they recieve even tho they would make millions more if they made a console version (shudder to think about it tho lol )
and look at it this way. almost every week or so there is a patch for the pc version. be it major or minor while console players have to wait through cert for dlc to get a patch. yet ppl say sd doesnt support pc gamers.
Lets not screw this thread up rehashing an old tired argument that has nothing to do with the topic. If I need to spell it out, being a dick is not platform specific.
Now back to the topic please or go start another thread somewhere else.
/self appointed moderator
I hate to chime in after the last post, but why are people still here trying to kill the game off for the people still enjoying Brink and looking forward to what patches are to come?
Like it’s been said to you before (you know who you are) if you don’t like it, move on. I’m sure SD can decide for themselves what’s right for Brink without you lot kicking them while they’re down.
on topic GO
Keep in mind that most of what the PC community is asking for is stuff that’s been standard fare for PC games for a long time, mostly the ability to freely customize the game to their liking (bindings, cvars, SDKs, etc). I don’t blame them for wanting that stuff, but I do feel that the attitude that it’s “console gamers’ fault” that they don’t get it is misplaced. I switched from PC to PS3 for the convenience, but PC gamers should still get the flexibility their platform allows (and actually, as UT3 for the PS3 shows, a lot of it is flexibility consoles are capable of as well).
I think the important distinction here, and it’s something we discussed a few pages back, is that we don’t blame console gamers. We blame developers/publishers for releasing a product on the PC as if it was just a third console with “funny” controller to support. As console gamers I’d imagine you too would feel equally put out if the games you played on your TV had high FOVs, tiny HUD/UIs and controller support that only used half the buttons and one analogue stick.
Consoles may be the bread and butter* of a game releases but if companies choose to support the PC then they should do so by playing to its strengths and not as a means to milk a few extra bucks out of a product.
*A meal which appears more cut throat and risky as competition and crowding can sink games. How many console devs have been shut down over the years? This despite high sales and low piracy? Either someone is overspending or there isn’t as much money to go around as people make out.
One of the biggest messages I’ve got from this thread is that Splash Damage didn’t have the time and resources to deliver the product the way it should have been on all 3 platforms.
The fact is, if that was the case; it shouldn’t have been made let alone pushed out on all 3 platforms.
Clearly, console was the priority. That’s okay - a business decision. But to provide PC games an inferior product (for PC) is inexcusable. Lest I forget that ‘sacrifices’ were also made on console and whilst it’s quite playable in comparison to the frustration playing on PC - there are certainly issues there too (terrible graphics popping and lack of lobbies are two that come to mind).
If they didn’t have the time or resources, they should have only developed for the ‘big two’. I’d have preferred to have the choice of a ‘complete’ Brink on two platforms instead of ‘nearly complete’ on three.
I’ve asked for numbers on all platforms and whilst I’ve seen Rahdo in this thread, he’s not providing the information. I won’t nay-say and conclude this means they’re bad but the amount of all-human player games I can jump into on PS3 is certainly very low - in fact, I’m not sure I’ve been in one yet. Maybe it’s time to stop caring and move on.
Hopefully, the biggest lesson learned is don’t over-stretch, over-promise and under-deliver. Consumers don’t like it.
i wouldnt blame the console market for this.
the market is changing. development cycles take several years. sometimes several hundred people are working on one project, sometimes on different continents.
video game development costs a lot of money nowadays. the content got way more complex than a few years back. you need to invest weeks to build a map. few years ago this was easier.
so, how do you finance develpment, even if it are just maps, that takes several weeks or even months of manpower? dlc is one answer to this. the monthly subscribtion is the answer of the future.
the quality of graphics nowadays just cant be achieved that easily by a bunch of hobby modders. if they are talented, of course they could build some maps, but this takes a lot of time. but at the same time there would be no more income for the developer to further support the game.
The Feathered Carpenter
By XVX
Carpenter: Why are you pounding that nail with a feather? Take this hammer, it’s easier to use.
Raztaz: Exactly, the hammer is easier to use. I like a challenge.
Carpenter: But the hammer is easier to use because it’s designed to pound nails in. Your tool shouldn’t make the job more difficult, but easier. You’re never going to be a good carpenter pounding nails in with a feather.
Raztaz: Whatever.
throws the hammer back at the carpenter and with mighty swings of his feather, continues to pound the nail
The Future for Cars
By XVX
Car Salesman: Here’s our new model car, great price, great looks, great gas mileage.
XVX: How come it has no tires?
Car Salesman: Once you purchase the car, we will send you tires in a couple months for an extra fee.
XVX: Extra fee? Didn’t cars used to come with tires?
Car Salesman: Yep, but we don’t work for free ya know.
XVX: But the car is the same price as previous cars that already had tires.
Car Salesman: Well, it cost a lot more money to build this car.
XVX: And what do I get from your higher costs?
Car Salesman: Well, a lot less features. For example, you can no longer adjust the seats, the rear view mirror is fixed in place and we took out reverse. We also had a lot of complaints that the steering wheel was too easy to use, so we replaced it with this console thumb stick. And as you already noticed, it has no tires. Actually, most of the money we spent on this great customization feature, that while irrelevant to the performance of the car, does allow you to change the color of the car.
XVX: What?!? No tires?!? No steering wheel?!? No reverse?!? But I can customize the paint job?!? No one’s going to buy…
Raztaz: Wow, dat’s like, friggn da bomb man. I’ll take it. When can I expect the tires?
after customizing the color of his new car a few times, Raztaz gives the car some gas with X and drives away on the rims using a console thumb stick
I understand the need to improve spectator mode, but I think the need for the game to have a form of competitive merit is far bigger. After all, there’s not a lot to spec if there’s no matches being played.
True, but not every fix or added feature is created equal. Some are easier than others, or more viable anyway, due from things like complexity of the codebase (how many things does it touch that can unravel and create bugs) and equally things like which personel are available to put some time in (engine coders should really work on ATI fixes, instead of weapon balance, etc.)
In that context, would you still consider a peak player count of around 660 globaly for a few weeks now as good?
Nope, which is why were’re still plugging away as best we can on improvements (both for PC and console, btw, since I know console guys often wonder where their love is… we’re trying to spread it around as best we can, but this thread is obviously very PC focuses, so I mostly focus on that in my replies here)
Can we get a current view of the unique players on each platform, please?
Would love to give them out, but they’re not mine to give (that’s a Bethesda PR issue). You guys can see PC, and I think you’re supposed to multiply the peak value by 5 to get the rough guestimate of the actual live userbase, or something like that? (Smooth would know)
To be quite honest I see (and I’m sure others do) that update as trying to make sure you don’t look foolish in front of thousands of people at Quakecon
Ah, yeah I can see how it might look that way, but as I said above, spectator tweaks were actually a quick and safe tweak to existing systems that didn’t cross over into a lot of deep code, and therefore had little or no chance of knock-on effects, so we did them. That’s the primary determiner of what we prioritize for fixes and improvements: what can we do to improve with a minimal chance of breaking things. It’s a delicate web of spaghetti, Brink’s shipping code (like any shipping game), and so we have to tread carefully.
Pre-game lobbies which Battlefield Bad Company 2 does include, in order to get your squad together, allow players to group up with eachother before entering a game. For instance, I get in a game and want to invite my friends, but OOPS the game is full and I have to back out and continue searching for a game me and my friends can fit in. It’s annoying and defeats the purpose of having a team oriented game, when you have to fight to play with your team in the first place.
Right, fair enough. That was originally intended to be solved by, when you were in the freeplay menu, allowing you to choose either to “join a match” or “start a match”. and if you were starting a match, then you’d guaranteed be in first, it wouldn’t be filled, and you’d have plenty of time to invite your friends in before it started to fill up. But there were TCR issues with this that surprised us, so we had to take it out near the end. Bear in mind, as I said earlier, we’d originally intended to have lobbies, but the UI issues were too much to bite off, so this was the intended solution.
Of course, the reality is, most times when you jump into a match, it’s maybe half full (a 8 player match, that is), so there should be ample room to invite your friends in anyway. I haven’t really had a hard time playing with my buddies in all honesty (though sometimes, I will have to swap factions mid-match to get on the more empty one, but I generally do that anyway to help even things out).
So while I can see that in theory lobbies would help your problem, in reality, is it really a problem you’re having? Are you really in that many matches that are so full that there isn’t room for your friends to get invited in?
I read all reviews about Brink in Russian gaming press, and yes u right most of them are positive, but I also saw all comments on this game on major ru forums, and believe me there is NOTHING positive there, 90% of ppl thinking this game is a total fail. Please link me sum forums with positive feedback please.
There’s plenty of guys on the forums right here who are very positive about Brink and post reguarily. And you can’t really use the subjective response of any given online forum as representative of the overall userbase’s feelings, since the number of people who actually get on is too small statisically to draw any conclusions from.
Add to that the internet’s default mode is to complain about everything, and you have to take forum flames with a grain of salt, I think. When people are unhappy about a game they were excited for, they go online and post about it. When people are happy with a game they were excited for, they just keep playing and don’t go online. Generally speaking. This is the way the internet works… 
Cos I saw a screenshot of PC HUD just week before release, why there is a console HUD in all of this videos, and why 360 controllers all the time?
Yes, and I’m glad that we got the PC HUD info out before shipping. I wish we could have gotten more PC related info and vids out (as I’ve already said). I would love to talk more about why there wasn’t, but there are some things I can’t cover here, for a variety of reasons.
The rest of your points in this post, Kin, I’ve already covered earlier, I think (the need for an SDK, the “less than stellar” PC retention, .
what disappointed me was that the campaign mode felt like scrambled eggs
Yeah, I can understand that, Shag. We always said in press that we weren’t trying to compete with Metal Gear or Final Fantasy on story, and that we were going for a really dead simple plot, because we just wanted it in there as a way to add meaning and context to the gameplay, which was our major concern. Still we could have gone farther, but since this was SD’s first step into game storytelling, it’s baby steps, definitely. One thing though that I will say is the audio logs, I think, are beautiful… Ed did some amazing writing, and the acting is fantastic. A lot of the heart and soul of our story is in those, they paint an amazing picture. Would have been great to get more of that into the game narrative, but our feeling was “let people get into the action, as fast as we can, and if they want more, they can listen to these offline”.
One bit o’ dev trivia, btw: originally, all the story intro scenes were supposed to STAR your character… i.e. your customized character was the leader in every scene who gave the orders, stopped the squabbling between teammates, reveals small parts of his background, etc. etc. We felt that would have added a lot of personal involvment for players in the narrative, and it was one of the reasons we went light, because we didn’t want to define too much of “who you are” in the story (like freeman from halflife), becaus yoru story comes from the adventures you have playing. But unfortunatley, the budget wasn’t there for the ADR we needed to make that work, so your character ended up getting busted down to a bit walk on role, which was very sad. I think players would have enjoyed the story much more if they felt they were the stars.
But now i’m just repeating myself again: “oh, if only we had more time, oh if only we had more budget, oh woe is us!” Still, I’m pretty pleased with the results we did get, considering the circumstances. But I’d love more feedback about what EXACTLY you felt was missing from narrative, shag, if you’ve got the time (you can message me direct if you like I doubt many here would care about it)
SD is in the business of making mediocre, high-concept games… PC gaming is dead to SD.
Well, I’m going to have to honeslty disagree that Brink is “mediocre”. I’m incredibly proud of it. It’s a great game, not as great as it could have been, not as great as we wanted it to be. But even here, a lot of people who are unhappy agree that it’s “on the cusp of being great”. We just couldn’t make it great for all players unfortunately in the time we had. Which is why we’re continuing to try to improve it even now. So Scumbag, if that’s part of your defintion of our dedication to the mediocre, and how we “don’t care about PC”, then we can agree to disagree I suppose
Brink is the only sport in recent memory that had lacked such a crucial feature and I am shocked you assumed no one would notice.
As I’ve said several times, we wanted lobbies in. Not sure how much clearer I can be about that. But I’m just repeating myself again, so moving on (and Jen just got back from shopping, hopefully I can finish up this page, since I’ve already been going for over and hour now).
Strategy for PC
Fantastic, agreed 100%. Now we just have to convince the people who hold all the money at the top that this is the way to go! (or Paul can win the lottery, and spend his own money to make games, though that’s not a very good plan B ). BTW, we’re talking about plan C’s as well, but obviously I can’t get into that here…
Please attempt to talk explain that.
What would you like me to explain? I’ve already said that we’re bummed about low PC numbers. Me saying that on XF is what started this whole thread. Let me know what it is you want me to explain, if you can…
Well, thanks for the response, but I find it unreasonable that you cherry picked a few of the things I said and then labeled “a lot” of what I said as for the hardcore.
Sorry, as I’ve said before, I did the “a lot” because I literally don’t want to spend all day Sunday answering every point, so I’m trying to be more effecient. But since you asked I’ll answer every bit you mentioned in this paragraph
I don’t see how not having one button do everything
having one button do everything makes the game more accessible because we take care of inventory management. In a game where players are asked to pay attention to a LOT more incoming information and tactical situations than most other FPSs out there, allowing them spend less time worrying about how tab A can fit into slot B frees them up to worry about other stuff that they’re not used to thinking about.
Hardcore prefer to have that extra level of control because they’re used to playing at that level.
not forcing me to always have to plant here
Having it placed in a set position makes the game more accessible because in the heat of battle, when a player has to learn how to quickly get in, get the thing defused, and stay alive, being able to know exactly where it is means he can focus more on staying alive, and less on a pixel hunt of every nook and cranny of a defense spot. It also means its easier for him to defend the area, because he knows where the enemy has to go to plant.
Also, it makes offensively planting the thing more accessible, because the player can’t “make a mistake” and place it in a “stupid” place that could screw up his teams chances of winning. If it could go anywhere, him putting it in a bad place means that even though he thought he did the right thing, he thought he was helping his team, he’s in fact a loser because he “didn’t do it right” (“everyone knows you’re supposed to hide it here, here or here. Why did you put it there, newb?”)
Giving the player more control over where to put it is implicitly more hardcore, because it adds a deep layer of additional decision making, which is great, but makes the game less accessible, when you’re trying to bring in a broader audience that aren’t used to the deeper gameplay we’re trying to make.
And also, I would argue that playing the HE charge makes it more hardcore, but doens’t make the tactical game more deep. It just makes it different. By having one set place, it means you have to approach the plant as a stronger team, that can support you better, because both teams know exactly where the planter will stand, and only one person can plant at a time. this requires MORE teamwork, more coordination, than the “just slap it anywhere approach”, which is why i’d argue it’s “different”, instead of “shallow”, because it’s not shallower (though it is more accessible).
not forcing me to put my mine here
You mean how you can’t put them on some places because it goes red? Those are generally technical issues, not purposeful limits. Though in some cases, those are put in by the level designers specifically (I’m thinking of the shallow water channel in resort, for isntance) speicifcally because of the tactical gameplay they’re trying to create.
not forcing me into major chokepoints
? you don’t like having set places where players have to fight over speicifc objectives? Sorry, that seems kind of core to objective based teamplay. Chokepoints where defense can set up their line, with lots of entry opportunities for offense to break that line. it’s kind of the overall structure of ET, no?
not forcing me to utilize more of the map for strategies
I’m sorry, I’m now thinking that maybe I’ve understood the structure of your paragraph? Don’t follow here. Lets talk…
not having vsays
This has nothing to do with accessibilty. This is a UI issue, which i’ve talked about before…
Frankly, this excuse that “we need to stay in business” is getting stale. If your claim had any merit, then SD should have went out of business with ET:QW, but clearly, they did not
Not an excuse, an explanation. And are you saying that we shouldn’t take our responsibility to our employees seriously?
And while I can’t talk about specifics, what makes you think that ETQW ensured a rosey and risk free future for our company?
It’s really that simple.
I’m here trying (as best I can within the limits of what I can talk about publically) to ensure you that it’s not. You can belive me or not, but I promise you, it’s very complex
How did you burn so much money on something not nearly as good as something, many, many, many, many millions of dollars cheaper
Three platforms simultaneously, shorter schedule, first time on consoles, revamp system to work equally well with controllers, completely new publishing partner, chaning market expectations, etc. etc.
And again, i’d say it’s not nearly as good for some players, and for other players it’s much much better, due to a focus on wider accessibility. You’re one of the former.
If you watch people playing on youtube, 95% of shooting happens in sights mode.
So? Shoot them then. They’re moving slower than you. Move faster and burst fire from the hip. It’s to your advantage to do so. Just because they’ve been trained by 10 years of Rainbow Six and CoD and the like doesn’t mean you have to
People wanted PC footage not just as a proof the game runs on PC. They mostly wanted to see how it plays on PC
I’ll only say that I’ve already addressed this as best I can by saying that we wanted to put PC footage out, but we couldn’t. There are some things I can’t talk about as openly as others. This is one of them. I agree there should have been m&kb footage, but there wasn’t. Not much more I can say on this topic, unfortunatley 
There are 2 distinct elements at play here.
- How hard / easy is it to understand the game?
- How hard / easy is it to play the game?
You’ve confused / combined the 2.
Kendle, a very astute and well thought out post. I agree with you in spirit, but not in reality. The reality of the games industry is that players are getting more and more used to having their hand held every step they take, being told where to go and what to do every step of the way, with autoaim systems doing all the heavy lifting and leaving htem with the satisfaction of thinking “i killed him!” because they pulled a trigger.
We didn’t want that with Brink, and I don’t believe we delivered that, but we did still have to create a game for players who are expecting that. So like i said, it’s a fine line. And when you’ve got two audiences that are so radically different in their expectations, and one audience is dwarfed by the other, you do have to make concessions for the bigger group.
But if we had complete conceeded, then the reality would be that in brink, any newb who picked up the controller would be able to compete with any seasoned pro, and that’s simply not the case. there are skills to learn (I’d argue more than any other modern big budget shooter out there, but that’s IMO), there are tricks to master, there are tactics to figure out. All of that is there, and if that’s not the case, then my wife should have a 50/50 chance of beating you in a one on one fight, which isn’t the case at all.
What we’re all talking about here is what the differences should be between the PC and console games, for the appropriate audiences. ANd we had this discussion 18 months ago when weapon banks first came up, and we agreed back then what would be the better system for PC. But if we didn’t have to time or resources to fix it back then (as I said back then), I hope you can understand why we don’t have the resources or time to fix them now, post shipping, when there’s no budget to get any of this done. We are improving what we can (see earlier in this thread and post to get a better understanding of how that works).
So again, we’re fixing what we can, and explaining when we can’t. We know what you guys like and don’t like. You know why these choices were made, and some (not all, because I can’t speak openly about everything) of what we’re doing to improve things (more info soon, hopefully, once DLC is finally through cert). And for the future, we’re as a company trying to figure out ways that we can bridge this gap better than we did with Brink (again, baby steps) while still ensuring staff can pay rent.
Hmm, 2 pages, 2 hours. Not a very good ratio… but my wife has now waited for an hour, so we’re going to try to take advantage of the sun which has finally come out after a weekend of grey.