Questions about aim/tracking

[Protekt1]

I see the use of secondary in strych’s situation to be quite valid and worthy use. In fact, allowing sprinting while reloading may reduce that effectiveness to near nothing making the secondary weapon solely a weapon to finish someone off if you happen to run completely out of ammo or someone has 1/2 hits left and your mag is empty. I think my opinion on this has shifted to keeping it as it is.

[Kendle]

I kind of see where Smooth is coming from, but then I ask myself why BF3, which has infinite sprint and allows reloading while sprinting, doesn’t break for the reasons given. As has been mentioned already, reloading is only very rarely something you do during a gunfight, it’s more likely something you do between gunfights, i.e. when sprinting from A to B, and not being able to do both at the same time feels like the game is slapping you in the face for no reason. For me it just kills the fluidity of the game and makes it un-necessarily “lumpy”.

[trickykungfu]

I kind of see where Smooth is coming from, but then I ask myself why BF3, which has infinite sprint and allows reloading while sprinting, doesn’t break for the reasons given. As has been mentioned already, reloading is only very rarely something you do during a gunfight, it’s more likely something you do between gunfights, i.e. when sprinting from A to B, and not being able to do both at the same time feels like the game is slapping you in the face for no reason. For me it just kills the fluidity of the game and makes it un-necessarily “lumpy”.

i noticed that too. It really doesn’t feel right. The same for throwing ammo and medpacks. At the start of a round u wonna throw out some ammo for the medics but it makes you really slow.

[stealth6]

I kind of see where Smooth is coming from, but then I ask myself why BF3, which has infinite sprint and allows reloading while sprinting, doesn’t break for the reasons given. As has been mentioned already, reloading is only very rarely something you do during a gunfight, it’s more likely something you do between gunfights, i.e. when sprinting from A to B, and not being able to do both at the same time feels like the game is slapping you in the face for no reason. For me it just kills the fluidity of the game and makes it un-necessarily “lumpy”.

Bf3 has larger maps and vehicles. On the maps without those two factors (conquest assault) it just feels like a meat grinder, mindless fragging. I thought we were aiming for more strategic gameplay?

[Ashog]

Regarding the gunplay, I am more worried about the IS SMG recoil and spread. Played the Duel map yesterday for some 2 hours or so and during that the deficiency of IS was made to me even more clear. SMGs of medic and engie for example, were practically useless on a long range with IS and it was rather more practical to use hipfire from that distance which doesn’t make any sense to me. The whole point of having IS on mid to long range is to have a higher overall accuracy of a gun at a cost of tunnel vision and immobility. Yet with those weapons it’s the other way around - spread increases so fast and the recoil follows such an unpredictable sway pattern in two dimensions (also horizontal, overall circle-like sway) that hitting anyone only can be achieved with the first two bullets. Maybe this is an intention for using burst fire but 2-bullet burst fire is imho too less. Sure IS balance is not final as they said, but something needs to be done with that.

[Anti]

Regarding the gunplay, I am more worried about the IS SMG recoil and spread. Played the Duel map yesterday for some 2 hours or so and during that the deficiency of IS was made to me even more clear. SMGs of medic and engie for example, were practically useless on a long range with IS and it was rather more practical to use hipfire from that distance which doesn’t make any sense to me. The whole point of having IS on mid to long range is to have a higher overall accuracy of a gun at a cost of tunnel vision and immobility. Yet with those weapons it’s the other way around - spread increases so fast and the recoil follows such an unpredictable sway pattern in two dimensions (also horizontal, overall circle-like sway) that hitting anyone only can be achieved with the first two bullets. Maybe this is an intention for using burst fire but 2-bullet burst fire is imho too less. Sure IS balance is not final as they said, but something needs to be done with that.

A lot of folks have said the IS is much better than it was since recent patches and Echo tends to back this up, since the class-agnostic patch IS usage across all automatic weapons has gone up between 3%-7%.

Still though IS is being used on average only around 20%-25% of the time, the vast majority of play is hip-fired still. I think if you were playing CoD or BF you could easily swap those numbers over.

[Ashog]

I’d say if you intend to change it, first address the horizontal sway component of the recoil. It is really bad IMO as it is very hard if at all to control because it’s random. The whole point of the recoil always was - a player knows which amount of recoil to expect from that particular gun. The player knows which direction of recoil to expect from all guns (upwards). The player develops a muscle memory for each particular gun to compensate.

Horizontal sway messes this up as it is a component that randomly adds to the expected recoil behavior.

[Kl3ppy]

[QUOTE=Anti;466488]A lot of folks have said the IS is much better than it was since recent patches and Echo tends to back this up, since the class-agnostic patch IS usage across all automatic weapons has gone up between 3%-7%.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah its better than in the previous patch, but the slight left-right recoil does make it pretty akward to use. I would like to see hust a vertical recoil and no horizontal recoil. The SMG IS is not good, it feels like I dont get a range improvement when using IS. Could be the drop off or the horizontal+vertical recoil. But it is finally useable, so keep the good work on the IS

[QUOTE=Anti;466488]
Still though IS is being used on average only around 20%-25% of the time, the vast majority of play is hip-fired still. I think if you were playing CoD or BF you could easily swap those numbers over.[/QUOTE]
I would say, in BF you use at least 90% of the time IS. Hipfire is unusable. Overall I’m happy with the current IS, just the recoil is a bit wierd.

[mazesc]

Partly OT: For me, the problem with ADS is that it’s hard to tell where the center is exactly. On that matter: Could we get a dot with a circle around it for a “crosshair” (I hope I haven’t missed it)

[Kendle]

Bf3 has larger maps and vehicles. On the maps without those two factors (conquest assault) it just feels like a meat grinder, mindless fragging. I thought we were aiming for more strategic gameplay?

When I play BF3 (which is actually quite a bit lately) I only play on 16 slot infantry only servers, mainly Rush or TDM. The reloading while sprinting simply ensures the gameplay is smooth, it doesn’t overly affect the mechanics of the game mode as such.

I’m all for more strategic gun play, having to choose whether to crouch / hip-fire / IS / burst etc. as the situation demands, but I think reloading / dropping packs etc. should be independent of that, these are things you do when you’re not in combat, and when you’re not in combat you’re likely to be moving. Having these things affect that movement seems odd and inconsistent, as well as annoying and un-necessary, IMHO.

[Smooth]

dropping packs etc. should be independent of that, these are things you do when you’re not in combat, and when you’re not in combat you’re likely to be moving. Having these things affect that movement seems odd and inconsistent, as well as annoying and un-necessary, IMHO.

We’re going to be testing allowing melee and thrown items to be used while sprinting, we’ll see how that goes before trying out sprint-reloading again

[k1ruaa]

We’re going to be testing allowing melee and thrown items to be used while sprinting, we’ll see how that goes before trying out sprint-reloading again

Can’t wait ^^

[Erkin31]

You guys don’t seem to realize that a lot of people consider weapon control as a huge skill. ET does not have the hardest weaponry to master either, so a combination of multiple skill curves is perfectly fine. I’ve heard “WHAT NO RECOIL?! NOOB CRAP” too many times, and though it is much more difficult than most of those people expect (mostly due to the game speed), other weapon types are welcome to those who favor different mechanics. Why not allow for a variety of options anyway? It helps make the weaponry unique.

In ET, the thing is not to master the weapon but to track its target+move during the fight. Fast straff + weapons with no recoil give us that.
The majority of others FPS make the reverse thing : Slow movements + weapon hard to master.
I don’t want to found in DB what all others FPS already give us.

The problem with the merging of all types of weapons is that this can give us some gunfights where players don’t move. It’s not really fun.
I don’t liked this in Brink. Too many bad weapons, and some “heavies characters” which gave me bad gunfights. The only good gunfights that I had was between “lights characters” with SMG.

since the class-agnostic patch IS usage across all automatic weapons has gone up between 3%-7%.

That is because IS is more powerfull than before. I don’t like to play with IS but I used it more than before with this patch.

[trickykungfu]

[QUOTE=Erkin31;466516]In ET, the thing is not to master the weapon but to track its target+move during the fight. Fast straff + weapons with no recoil give us that.
The majority of others FPS make the reverse thing : Slow movements + weapon hard to master.
I don’t want to found in DB what all others FPS already give us.

The problem with the merging of all types of weapons is that this can give us some gunfights where players don’t move. It’s not really fun.
I don’t liked this in Brink. Too many bad weapons, and some “heavies characters” which gave me bad gunfights. The only good gunfights that I had was between “lights characters” with SMG.[/QUOTE]

I would also like to see weapons with nearly no spread. But i think they will have a problem selling those mercs.

[Kendle]

[QUOTE=Erkin31;466516]In ET, the thing is not to master the weapon but to track its target+move during the fight. Fast straff + weapons with no recoil give us that.
The majority of others FPS make the reverse thing : Slow movements + weapon hard to master.
I don’t want to found in DB what all others FPS already give us.
[/QUOTE]

The problem is the game’s business model is built on selling mercs, and selling mercs is going to fail if they all have the same weapon behaviours. Besides, the reason lots of other FPS’s have a wide range of weapons with a wide range of capabilities is because that sort of thing is actually popular (outside the little ET bubble).

[Erkin31]

I’m totaly agree with you, for a F2P model, it’s important to propose a lot of weapons.

About others FPS, generally they offer a lot of weapons, but with the same gameplay. If you look BF4, only some stats are modified between a lot of weapons (the realist context don’t help).
Shootmania is always criticized for its number of weapons, but its 4 weapons have a unique gameplay.

We can say the same thing for fighting games. Skullgirls has only 9 characters, but each character is really unique while Street fighter has 40 characters but with a lot of similar characters/duplicates.

[k1ruaa]

It’s frustrating that right now in Xt, even if you have a perfect tracking on 3 enemies, you often can’t manage to kill them all due to the spread increasing during shooting (except if enemies are really bad).

So is Extraction going to be an unexiting game where you can’t get multikills against multipe enemies shooting at you?

Sure you can get multikills in some situations like when enemies are reviving or not paying attention, but when you face 3 opponent in a tunnel if you have a good tracking you usually get the first guy pretty quickly, sometimes the second guy and then the spread is so damn high that you can barely hit the last one… and you die.

This game is kind of unrewarding about good trackings. ;(

[montheponies]

There’s always been the need to burst fire to reduce spread.

[Hundopercent]

We’re going to be testing allowing melee and thrown items to be used while sprinting, we’ll see how that goes before trying out sprint-reloading again

Im on board for this. Lets do it.

[fubar]

Maybe it’s my limited experience or ignorance towards the game mechanics, thus far, but from the few game’s I’ve played… You people exaggerate, a lot. Not a huge fan of the IS as it immobilizes me and my movements, I’m more a dodging-bullets type of guy. With that being said, 90% of my encounters so far have been mostly hip-fire based with increasingly success, spread is near to non-existent in this game already (seriously, have you guys ever even played cs/bf?). The spread feels very close to what RtCW is at right now, definitely no ET, but… very close to RtCW. Easy to control, the added recoil is minimal at most. If anything at all I’d propose lesser damage output on headshots and… accuracy stats for clients, might just make people realize they aren’t shooting quite as bad as they think they do.

Also I’d like to point out, a lot of people screaming IS are used 90% of the time in BF3, that’s… a huge lie. Having played the game competitively, albeit for a short period of time, hip-firing is very easily controllable and favorable in close/mid range fights. Not to mention the IS bug that has been effectively abused for months now (IS accuracy whilst running and shooting from hip).

Edit: Since I’m here, is there any equivalent to quake’s cg_drawgun 0 in the ut engine? pretty pls?