Questions about aim/tracking

(INF3RN0) #41

[QUOTE=Smooth;466254]We do want to allow for more than just the hold-down-fire and strafe-at-head-height style of gameplay. Not every gun can be an MP40/Thompson.
[/QUOTE]

When do I get to test some of these weaponz?! Also I think you should totally have the weapon loadouts for each character include an option for both the ET and other style weaponry just to immediately please those with other preferences. I’m assuming your thinking of some CS style bursting with higher damage? It just may be hard to make them viable in comparison, but we will see!

(shaftz0r) #42

i really dont see the big deal about sprint + reload. its just a change in tactics, and something that i dont personally have a problem with

(Smooth) #43

[QUOTE=ailmanki;466287]Sorry for my ignorance, but I fail to see the argument here?

If I am a merc, handling my nade launcher now for several years, I can reload this beast while sleeping.
If any increase the spread while running, and let us shoot while running. But that has nothing todo with the reloading. I can’t do a handstand either ingame.[/QUOTE]

You kind of said it yourself.

If we enable reloading while sprinting, logically we should enable it while firing as well since firing is an easier action to perform and takes much less time.

[ul]
[li]At this point, players will very rarely not be sprinting, so why don’t we just increase up the base running speed?[/li][li]We then have to ask ourselves if we really want to increase the movement speed during combat? Probably not.[/li][li]Since sprinting only currently increases forward momentum, we’d also have to significantly increase strafe speed if we increase run speed. This is because it feels quite weird to have different speeds going in different directions while in the same state.[/li][li]Again, we’d have to ask ourselves if we want to increase strafe speed so much? Again, probably not.[/li][li]Also, would we want to increase running in all directions to match the current sprint speed? If not and we wanted to only go a little faster then the travel times to the objectives get longer and we need to rebalance things.[/li][li]Players (especially those on this forum) dislike high spread. If we kept sprint and allowed firing we’d probably increase spread like you said. The most common combat state would become sprinting since it’s the fastest form of movement and evasion is vital in this game. With increased spread we’d have many complaints that the game is too luck-based.[/li][li]We’d probably end up reducing spread to appease people and have a much faster game with no penalty for speed or reason to choose between speed or accuracy.[/li][li]A lot of the player on this forum would love the idea of that, however in practice it would create a large barrier to entry for the majority of players that aren’t W:ET/RTCW veterans. [/li][/ul]

Again, I’m not saying we won’t test things like this and try them out but there are a lot of elements we need to worry about when making a core change.

(Dragonji) #44

Can there be a possibility to at least cancel reloading?

(Smooth) #45

The closest weapons would be the Assault Rifles as they fire very slowly (even if they sound quick atm) and have the least spread. Skyhammer’s Assault Rifle actually has almost the exact same bullet spread as an MP40/Thompson but with additional recoil to prevent it from becoming overpowered compared to other guns.

We could (and very well might) introduce a weapon as easy to aim and control as the MP40/Thompson, however it would need to have reduced damage/fire-rate to compensate. Perhaps this could be finely balanced but someone who has the skill to control the recoil/spread of the tougher weapons would win the majority of head-to-heads with their lower TTK.

(Seiniyta) #46

I’d love for the strafing speed to be increased a bit, but otherwise I’m pretty fine with the current speed of the game.

(Erkin31) #47

This others weapons will not break the gameplay ?
I mean, what I have already liked in ET/ETQW, is that they offer us real gunfights. The ttk is already low in DB, and some new kind of weapons could reduce it.

For the sprint+reload, I don’t understand why it’s a problem to use a lot the sprint. I like a lot the fact to reload during a sprint in games with sprint animations (like true combat elite). For a retreat, this give a lot of sensations and possibilities.

Edit: A lot of posts while i was writing mine.

(Nail) #48

[QUOTE=Smooth;466309]The closest weapons would be the Assault Rifles as they fire very slowly (even if they sound quick atm) and have the least spread. Skyhammer’s Assault Rifle actually has almost the exact same bullet spread as an MP40/Thompson but with additional recoil to prevent it from becoming overpowered compared to other guns.

We could (and very well might) introduce a weapon as easy to aim and control as the MP40/Thompson, however it would need to have reduced damage/fire-rate to compensate. Perhaps this could be finely balanced but someone who has the skill to control the recoil/spread of the tougher weapons would win the majority of head-to-heads with their lower TTK.[/QUOTE]

Kriss Vector would work, it’s blowback mech would fit and 9mm rounds would be ideal

(Smooth) #49

We’d need something that fires at around 400rpm though :tongue:

(Nail) #50

yah, it’s a little fast but most modern smg’s are

(Anti) #51

[QUOTE=Erkin31;466311]This others weapons will not break the gameplay ?
I mean, what I have already liked in ET/ETQW, is that they offer us real gunfights. The ttk is already low in DB, and some new kind of weapons could reduce it.
[/QUOTE]

If anything fast high damage weapons would add very little variety to the game as it stands, I expect most new weapons we will add will be on the slower side and probably less ‘realistic’.

(ailmanki) #52

[QUOTE=Smooth;466305]You kind of said it yourself.

If we enable reloading while sprinting, logically we should enable it while firing as well since firing is an easier action to perform and takes much less time.

[ul]
[li]At this point, players will very rarely not be sprinting, so why don’t we just increase up the base running speed?[/li][li]We then have to ask ourselves if we really want to increase the movement speed during combat? Probably not.[/li][li]Since sprinting only currently increases forward momentum, we’d also have to significantly increase strafe speed if we increase run speed. This is because it feels quite weird to have different speeds going in different directions while in the same state.[/li][li]Again, we’d have to ask ourselves if we want to increase strafe speed so much? Again, probably not.[/li][li]Also, would we want to increase running in all directions to match the current sprint speed? If not and we wanted to only go a little faster then the travel times to the objectives get longer and we need to rebalance things.[/li][li]Players (especially those on this forum) dislike high spread. If we kept sprint and allowed firing we’d probably increase spread like you said. The most common combat state would become sprinting since it’s the fastest form of movement and evasion is vital in this game. With increased spread we’d have many complaints that the game is too luck-based.[/li][li]We’d probably end up reducing spread to appease people and have a much faster game with no penalty for speed or reason to choose between speed or accuracy.[/li][li]A lot of the player on this forum would love the idea of that, however in practice it would create a large barrier to entry for the majority of players that aren’t W:ET/RTCW veterans. [/li][/ul]

Again, I’m not saying we won’t test things like this and try them out but there are a lot of elements we need to worry about when making a core change.[/QUOTE]

Big thx for the explanation.
There is one thing I like currently, and that is running does only modify my forward speed. I am a rusher player type, as such I tend to rush in, in ET my playstyle causes me to almost always have a high spread. And as such I die to certain player types very easily, since they have been in a good position waiting for me with crossfire. I welcome that they can’t run away backwards or sidewards in ExT - drol.
As such Ironsight would be not possible to be used while running, maybe if any - enabling ironsight while running should be the fastest way to get spread low - but it should also toggle walking state.

I guess keeping the running as it is, but allowing those other things could work out, as always a test would be needed anyway.

(Erkin31) #53

If we enable reloading while sprinting, logically we should enable it while firing as well since firing is an easier action to perform and takes much less time.

That is a reality consideration which seems, for me, displaced for a game like DB, not a game design consideration.
If I would like to have a reload while sprinting, I prefer to not be able to fire while sprinting.

A lot of the player on this forum would love the idea of that, however in practice it would create a large barrier to entry for the majority of players that aren’t W:ET/RTCW veterans.

You assume that only players of ET/ETQW can like this elements, but a lot of new players which doesn’t know theses licenses can like this kind of mechanics.

With the heavy competition in the market, this kinds of mechanics can make the game unique and attract players.
Maybe I say something stupid, I doesn’t know if FPS (others than big ones like BF/COD/Planetsides) which tries to attract some players by lowering the learning curve are really lucratives.
But I think that a FPS/multiplayer need some uniques elements (and i don’t talk of gimmicks but deep elements) to be a success.

f anything fast high damage weapons would add very little variety to the game as it stands, I expect most new weapons we will add will be on the slower side and probably less ‘realistic’.

Great news. Because I imagine this will be a hudge challenge for SD to create a lot a weapons to support the F2P model.

(Mustang) #54

(Smooth) #55

That was in response to ailmanki’s post saying that they did’t get that particular point of the argument.

The main issue is how we’d handle semi-automatic weapons (which don’t really have a proper ‘firing’ state) if we allowed them to reload & pump (i.e. do everything else) when sprinting. Effectively meaning players could perma-sprint with these weapons, making the state itself redundant.

(rapid_shot) #56

And I’m assuming sprint bars are a flat no correct? I know a lot of people hate it, but I enjoy it since how you use it can become a vital, yet not overpowering skill. I would love to at least test it if sprint reloading / strafing were included.

(k1ruaa) #57

[QUOTE=Smooth;466254]
There are also other skills that should also be rewarded beside tracking, such as positional play, having to manage weapon behaviour and twitch aim to name but-a-few.[/QUOTE]

Of course I agree, but increasing accuracy on weapons doesn’t mean there is no positional play, twitch aim, etc…

About the sprint while reloading, I really think it’s a must have for a “FAST” fps. It makes the game much more dynamic OR the other solution of increasing the running speed and removing the sprint could be really great in my opinion, if it is associated with a good way to jump which is not here just yet.

(k1ruaa) #58

[QUOTE=Erkin31;466331]That is a reality consideration which seems, for me, displaced for a game like DB, not a game design consideration.
If I would like to have a reload while sprinting, I prefer to not be able to fire while sprinting.

You assume that only players of ET/ETQW can like this elements, but a lot of new players which doesn’t know theses licenses can like this kind of mechanics.

With the heavy competition in the market, this kinds of mechanics can make the game unique and attract players.
Maybe I say something stupid, I doesn’t know if FPS (others than big ones like BF/COD/Planetsides) which tries to attract some players by lowering the learning curve are really lucratives.
But I think that a FPS/multiplayer need some uniques elements (and i don’t talk of gimmicks but deep elements) to be a success.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly my thoughs :open_mouth: a Fast FPS should not focus too much on “does it make sense?” in a realistic way. These type of games are not realistic by essence.

And yeah, after trying lots of FPS, I’ve never found a better gameplay than in ET and I think many COD/BF players never played this game and would enjoy its gameplay.
Just to be clear I am not trying to say that you should copy ET, but you should take in consideration the aspects that made its success, particularly aiming.

Anyway, I just want to thank you smooth for taking the time to discuss this. Appreciate it.

(INF3RN0) #59

You guys don’t seem to realize that a lot of people consider weapon control as a huge skill. ET does not have the hardest weaponry to master either, so a combination of multiple skill curves is perfectly fine. I’ve heard “WHAT NO RECOIL?! NOOB CRAP” too many times, and though it is much more difficult than most of those people expect (mostly due to the game speed), other weapon types are welcome to those who favor different mechanics. Why not allow for a variety of options anyway? It helps make the weaponry unique.

(Hundopercent) #60

[QUOTE=Smooth;466251]We’ve tested this internally and it isn’t really feasible with the issue it creates for semi-automatic weapons. With these guns it means the only time you’re not sprinting is during the fire interval which lasts for around 300ms. This entirely defeats the point of having a separate sprint state and makes the gameplay very jerky.

Sprinting only increases forward movement speed and is intended for getting from A to B, not for use in combat. If we feel the need to speed up movement during combat then we’ll probably get rid of Sprint altogether and increase the Run speed but I don’t think that is likely at this stage.

We’re currently looking at allowing you to always sprint while using certain items like melee and thrown abilities.[/QUOTE]

Valid point, but something that can be worked out no? Let us test it and provide feedback and suggestions. Really, it’s no different than the milk jug patch that implemented controlled jerkiness every time you had to complete an objective. It’s really not much different than the current build either where you have to stop and hit F for everything.

That seems over board. After killing someone you are going from point A to point B and are delayed while waiting for reload to complete.

That sounds better and may fix the excessive jerkiness we currently feel during combat since sprint cancels with every action you do. Right now, I just switch to my secondary every time I need to reload until I get to a position where I am not sprinting. It’s a terrible work around imo. I should never have to pull my secondary out unless I need that extra umpf to finish someone off.

Let us test this change. You guys have thrown a lot of curve balls this year and I think we deserve a fast ball down the middle. :slight_smile:

Edit::stroggtapir: