Questions about aim/tracking

(1-800-NOTHING) #21

[QUOTE=Smooth;466152]The baseline spread and recoil is defined in the Running (not Sprinting) state for the weapons.

We then apply a multiplier for each state, so technically Crouching and Stationary states are considered a bonus.

Sprinting and Jumping are the only ‘penalty’ states.

PS. Walking speed is only used when you iron-sight.[/QUOTE]
thx for clarifying that. :slight_smile:
can’t sprint and shoot/knife*, though (or was that what you meant by ‘penalty’?).
and there is a walk button?

*the apparent movement speed/spread is that of running. (“which explains why trying to rush/jump at someone with a knife feels a bit like bungee jumping.”, he casually remarked.)

what about spread increase due to sustained fire?
doing some quick testing with sawbonez; judging by the crosshair spread indicator the SMG seems to reach maximum spread somewhere around 15/40 rounds left when standing still.
i’m guessing the rate of increase is the same for all states, but with different starting values…?
maybe delaying the max spread to the very end of the magazine would help with regards to hipfire strafing/tracking, as well? :slight_smile:

(Smooth) #22

By penalty I mean that we still increase the recoil and spread in Sprint state as it takes a short time to recover to Running state values after you stop.

Walk is bound to X by default but is rarely used.

Spread increase rate is also affected by movement state in the same manner as spread and recoil.

Because the maximum spread is reduced though, it takes the same time to hit maximum spread in all states.

The time taken varies from gun to gun but for the SMGs it takes around 2s of sustained fire to get to maximum spread.

(1-800-NOTHING) #23

[QUOTE=Smooth;466189]By penalty I mean that we still increase the recoil and spread in Sprint state as it takes a short time to recover to Running state values after you stop.

Walk is bound to X by default but is rarely used.

Spread increase rate is also affected by movement state in the same manner as spread and recoil.

Because the maximum spread is reduced though, it takes the same time to hit maximum spread in all states.

The time taken varies from gun to gun but for the SMGs it takes around 2s of sustained fire to get to maximum spread.[/QUOTE]
oh, ok. thanks for the explanation once again. :slight_smile:
so any thoughts on less hipfire spread? is that within the realm of possibility?

(Smooth) #24

Tweaking hip-fire spread is definitely a possibility. I personally think we’ll likely reduce it on some guns and maybe increase it a little on others to give a bit more variation and choice.

However this type of thing will constantly be tweaked as it’s a primary tool we use for balancing the weapons.

(ImageOmega) #25

Sprint + reload in next patch?

(k1ruaa) #26

[QUOTE=Smooth;466248]Tweaking hip-fire spread is definitely a possibility. I personally think we’ll likely reduce it on some guns and maybe increase it a little on others to give a bit more variation and choice.

However this type of thing will constantly be tweaked as it’s a primary tool we use for balancing the weapons.[/QUOTE]

I understand that and I think it’s great to have variation to bring different gameplays for each weapon. That being said, many of us still think it would be really great to reduce the hip fire spread overall. Would make the game much more fun I think.

(Smooth) #27

We’ve tested this internally and it isn’t really feasible with the issue it creates for semi-automatic weapons. With these guns it means the only time you’re not sprinting is during the fire interval which lasts for around 300ms. This entirely defeats the point of having a separate sprint state and makes the gameplay very jerky.

Sprinting only increases forward movement speed and is intended for getting from A to B, not for use in combat. If we feel the need to speed up movement during combat then we’ll probably get rid of Sprint altogether and increase the Run speed but I don’t think that is likely at this stage.

We’re currently looking at allowing you to always sprint while using certain items like melee and thrown abilities.

(Smooth) #28

We do want to allow for more than just the hold-down-fire and strafe-at-head-height style of gameplay. Not every gun can be an MP40/Thompson.

I know a lot of people on these forums would want pretty much every weapon to be a clone of these guns (since that’s what they are used to and ‘tracking is superior’) but honestly we have to appeal to a greater audience that just W:ET and seriously take on-board the other opinions we are hearing.

There are also other skills that should also be rewarded beside tracking, such as positional play, having to manage weapon behaviour and twitch aim to name but-a-few.

(ImageOmega) #29

[QUOTE=Smooth;466251]We’ve tested this internally and it isn’t really feasible with the issue it creates for semi-automatic weapons. With these guns it means the only time you’re not sprinting is during the fire interval which lasts for around 300ms. This entirely defeats the point of having a separate sprint state and makes the gameplay very jerky.

Sprinting only increases forward movement speed and is intended for getting from A to B, not for use in combat. If we feel the need to speed up movement during combat then we’ll probably get rid of Sprint altogether and increase the Run speed but I don’t think that is likely at this stage.

We’re currently looking at allowing you to always sprint while using certain items like melee and thrown abilities.[/QUOTE]

That is disappointing. Is it feasible to see it patched in for the alpha community to test? I know that as a community, we’d end up playing the game a lot differently than what your internal team would do (which is to be expected). Plus, we’d be able to offer a lot of insight and provide a lot of feedback regarding such a simple request. Who knows? We may change your mind!

Let me try to persuade you further. While, I can appreciate that sprint + reload is considered contradictory to the original intentions of sprint altogether (ie: not being used in combat, but to get to point B from A), let me point out several ways this idea is flawed:

  1. Sprinting while Reloading is movement from A to B inherently. If you’re sprinting while reloading that means you are on the move. You’re trying to get from one section to another.

  2. Many times the need to reload comes from after engaging an enemy, killing him/her, and then needing to be on the move to the next objective. With this you will be promoting faster gameplay (instead of slowing it down) and helping teammates coordinate better so that they can be moving in waves instead of a line.

  3. Reloading while sprinting away from combat is not the same as sprinting in combat. If you’re retreating that means you are simply trying to get the hell out of there! Maybe you’re near death and you need to find cover. A tactical decision is to reload while running away in case your enemy decides to close the distance. You see, your enemy is clearly in the advantage if you’re fleeing an engagement. Either, he has you out-positioned, out-numbered, out-damaged, or out-gunned (ie: aim or firepower). When a player sprints away, he is trying to get away from one of these things, but also, you’d want to be at your most ready for when your enemy does close the distance. You are trying to gain the tactical advantage (cover, reinforcements, readiness) where previously your enemy had the upper hand. Thus, reloading while seeking cover is a tactical decision. It MUST be sprinting AND reloading for it to be tactical otherwise it is just a choice of do you sprint or do you reload because doing both will get you killed. If your internal team does not agree with this I’d be happy to provide players to set up demonstrations with them.

  4. Enclosing the distance with the enemy is stifled by not being able to reload while sprinting as well. Now, I know I just argued for the defender’s side, but this is a different case. If the defender is already turtled or in a fortified position (especially in regards to a turret), sometimes you need to fire then move. Firing causes hesitation or bunkering of your enemy, thus allowing you to sprint to enclose the distance. Now, if you’re not able to reload while doing this, you are really handicapping yourself depending on how much ammo you have left in your clip. If you choose to reload (instead of sprint) you will nullify your attempt to enclose the distance, thus ensuring the enemy keeps the upper hand in his bunkered position. If you choose to sprint (instead of reload) you risk running out of ammo at the wrong time when you are close quarters. Of course the natural choice would be to switch to secondary, but that is a SECONDARY choice because the engagement lead to that decision. The initial should be that you went into the firefight at 100% fire power readiness, not (an example) 30% firepower readiness with a necessity to switch to secondary. Now imagine if you’re the risky type and are enclosing the distance and happening upon 2 or more enemies. Under the aforementioned circumstances this is almost certain death, but with the ability to reload and being at 100% firepower readiness the chances of winning this engagement are higher. So, you see, this not only speeds up gameplay, but makes gameplay more interesting and inherently raises the skill ceiling of the game since a higher skilled player would take better advantage of enclosing the distance upon enemies since he will be at 100% firepower readiness while doing so.

  5. The reason of not having sprint + reload because that means you’ll only be using sprint during non-firing stages is flawed. Right now, you’re using sprint during any non-action stage (abilities, reload, objectives). In fact, I use toggle sprint for this very reason. When you’re stifling sprint to adjust for reloading, how many milliseconds are we talking there? Are you really trying to get the player to slow down for that amount of time because you’re afraid he’ll be sprinting all the time anyways? There are many, many times a player will not be sprinting, but I definitely do promote that if he is on the move, he should be sprinting even while performing actions. Anyone who just blindly runs in will pay the price with his in-game life. Thus, he was not using sprint + reload tactically as mentioned in the previous four points. FURTHERMORE, I’d argue that not being able to reload while sprinting makes the gameplay jerky (as I’m sure many posters here would agree). Sprinting, engaging in a fire fight, then trying to go back to sprinting only to have to wait for the reload is an extremely jerky and abrupt stop to action. One of the main reasons games are action packed and more fun is because you’re always on the move. Forcing the player to slow down to reload hinders the action AND the gameplay (including the many reasons above). If you’re not fighting, you want to be moving to get into more fighting! I mean…that is what this game is all about anyways right?

I’ll stop there as I don’t want to further derail this thread (too late, am I right?!). But, I hope this is enough to at least persuade and argue for allowing us as an alpha community to get a taste of what sprinting + reloading is like in the game formerly known as Dirty Bomb.

Respectfully,
An Ecstatic Dirty Bomber.

(Smooth) #30

All very valid arguments but they don’t solve the problems that sprinting + reload brings with Pistols, Shotguns, the Grenade Launcher and Sniper Rifles. We also have to consider the… oddness around being able to sprint while reloading a complex belt-fed machine gun for 4 seconds but not when simply pulling the trigger of the same weapon.

Sprinting is currently very ‘clean’ in that it can only be performed when absolutely nothing else is being done by the player. We’re going to be testing allowing certain actions while sprinting to see how this changes things. If that goes well then we’ll move on from there.

Please note that absolutely NOTHING is final, especially during the Alpha stage and we haven’t come to a decision just yet. These things do take time and there are a lot of elements to consider beyond just what you guys on this forum are asking for.

I think the point I’m trying to make is that ‘just turn it on and let us test it’ isn’t always the best option, especially if it causes other issues that need to be solved first.

(rapid_shot) #31

As a strong advocate of sprint-reloading, I was surprised to see this as a very solid point. In the game as-is, I don’t know when I wouldn’t be sprinting unless it was to complete an objective. Unless there was a sprint bar, which I know is very unfavorable around here, removing sprint from some situations like reloading are necessary.

Perfectly sound logic as long as appealing to the masses doesn’t completely alienate your original core. I’ve been seeing this progressively become an issue. But I guess if you have the masses you can afford to screw the core. Makes sense, just kinda sucks.

(Evil-Doer) #32

So Image’s entire post couldn’t be a better persuasion as it is to check this out. (Actually he probably could, but for time sake)

I can’t even count on every finger, toe, and crevice on my body how many times I’ve tried to “close the gap” but I get so entirely hampered by the slow down while reloading, everything I’ve ever taught myself about tactics is out the window.

I want to ask Splash Damage straight up “Why” don’t you allow for normal sprint movement while reloading? Not allowing players to move freely while doing such a simple action as reloading is so detrimental in my humble opinion.

+1 for ImageOmega’s entire post it couldn’t be better said.

(Evil-Doer) #33

Just curious why you think it’s necessary?

(Smooth) #34

The last thing we want to do is alienate you guys, since you’re the seed, catalyst, core etc. for the player-base of the game.

It’s a very fine line that we have to tread but we’re trying our hardest to keep you mostly happy while opening up the appeal of the game to other types of players.

(rapid_shot) #35

Everyone would be using it all the time otherwise. Then it treads into the territory of why not never turn it off? (which keeps reminding me of TF2 shudders). I would rather keep sprint and cope with when it is unavailable than remove it.

(stealth6) #36

I don’t really care either way, but allow me to try and counter argument some of these points.

  1. True

  2. I agree it will speed up the gameplay, but I don’t agree you will be moving in waves. You’ll still need to regroup since everybody will be sprinting + reloading, so you can’t catch up.

  3. Current situation: Either you’re running or reloading, same for the enemy. So in the best case you sprint to cover and then reload while the enemy closes the distance. Then you have 100% firepower while he doesn’t plus you have the position advantage since you know where he’s coming from and can line up your shot. If you can’t reload on time then you have hopefully lead him into an ambush or you’re both low on bullets or you’re at a minor disadvantage.
    I don’t see the need to add sprint + reload to the equation. Seems like it just makes it easier.

  4. I’d say it lowers the skill ceiling since you are basically always at 100% firepower. Less to think about? Given the example of moving up on a bunkered position, can’t you solve this buy having a teammate cover you while you sprint?

  5. Agree, but if you’re constantly sprinting I think people will quickly complain that the enemy is always in their face. (Kill a guy and he’s immediately back again). This could be solved by increasing the spawntimes, but just throwing that out there.

(Evil-Doer) #37

My question to you is why not be able to sprint while reloading at least. I believe that’s more or less the current challenge. I can understand not sprinting while shooting and such (which would be during “battle”). But, like Image pointed out reloading is a destination to destination scenario.

(Humate) #38

My question to you is why not be able to sprint while reloading at least

a few reasons could be:
-pistol would only come out when the player runs out of ammo, if reload and sprinting was introduced
-they want players to switch to pistol to avoid the reload movement penalty, at the cost of firepower to give the pistol more meaning or weight (spinoff of knife/speed boost mechanic)

ps only guessing :frowning:

(ailmanki) #39

Sorry for my ignorance, but I fail to see the argument here?

If I am a merc, handling my nade launcher now for several years, I can reload this beast while sleeping.
If any increase the spread while running, and let us shoot while running. But that has nothing todo with the reloading. I can’t do a handstand either ingame.

(Evil-Doer) #40

[QUOTE=Humate;466281]a few reasons could be:
-pistol would only come out when the player runs out of ammo, if reload and sprinting was introduced
-they want players to switch to pistol to avoid the reload movement penalty, at the cost of firepower to give the pistol more meaning or weight (spinoff of knife/speed boost mechanic)

ps only guessing :([/QUOTE]

Definitely see where your coming from. It just doesn’t seem like a mechanic should force a player to pull a pistol out, do you agree? I find a pistol as a nice way to end a fight, not to run away with a pistol out to run into another player that’s fully equip, but I’m not because I didn’t wanna reload while running away at hampered speed.