Port for Linux.

(DarkangelUK) #41

[QUOTE=jazevec;198229]Your talk of “linux market share” leaves me wondering if you know what Linux is. Last time I checked Linux was not being sold on markets. It’s still predominantly downloaded.[/QUOTE] I’m pretty sure they realize this…

What makes you think that windows users are especially likely to buy a game like Brink ? With so much competition, players are likely to choose something else from a myriad of call of duty/far cry 2/ fear2 or some other forgettable shooter. Meanwhile Brink on Linux would be a big fish in a small pond.

Again we’re not debating the justification of a windows version, because we know that’s getting made.

There’s not much to choose from when it comes to Linux FPS games - Quake Live, other id Software games, ET:QW, W:ET.

That only strengthens the argument that there aren’t enough linux users to warrant developers spending time on porting a version.

I use Linux at home, but have windows workstation at work. I would be counted as a Windows user.

Sorry m8 that makes no sense, is that a fact just pulled out of thin air?

If you like links, here’s an article for you about statistics and Linux

Ok let’s say there are actually twice the amount of linux users than actually stated (i’m humouring you now), it’s still a very small number… there seems to be this fascination with linux users that they greatly exaggerate their popularity and numbers. There are still more Mac users than linux users and i see that having more of a chance being developed than linux.

When windows 7 ships, it’s impossible to say how many will move away from linux back to windows cos they moved there cos they hated vista. Complete guesstimations there. And tbh windows isn’t the main focus, id say it consoles cos they have the largest number of potential buyers.

(Floris) #42

Your question should be “how high do you think are the chances that people would pay for a single game, if they don’t have to pay for the os?” considering there are plenty of users who are contributing to the OS in terms of developing and supporting it, which means the software gets better and not the pocket of your master.

Too bad Microsoft still counts those people in the fud they send to companies.

(DarkangelUK) #43

Ok lets look at it from a different perspective, why do you think id software has decided to stop developing for linux? From my POV I think it’s cos of numbers, but i’d like to hear it from a linux users POV.

(Floris) #44

Every Linux user of the software buys the Windows version first, so there really are no statistics. Even when there isn’t a native Linux version there will be copies sold to Linux gamers who will play the game through wine (even having a drop in performance). Meanwhile Rage is still being developed for Mac which also doesn’t have a number advantage.

The last game id shipped was Doom 3 and it has a linux client, JC might have said they are currently not developing a Linux version for Rage but I doubt any id game has ever been developed with Linux being a target platform from the ground up like SD is developing Brink, so you saying id stopped developing for Linux is fud, I heard Microsoft has jobs for people like you.

(jazevec) #45

That only strengthens the argument that there aren’t enough linux users to warrant developers spending time on porting a version.

You mean not being a lot of games means it’s not worth porting the game ? What kind of logic is this ? There’s a lot of underserved customers among Linux gamers, that’s what I’m trying to say. At the same time Windows games market is saturated, and a windows gamer has attention span of a 6 year old going from one shiny object to another. This means windows gamers will stop caring about a game soon, whereas a game on Linux stays attractive for longer.

Sorry m8 that makes no sense, is that a fact just pulled out of thin air?

It doesn’t make sense because you failed to understand it. Statistics like ones you bring up often show actual Linux users as windows users, if that’s the only thing available in corporation at work. And it’s not hard to believe workstations at my workplace won’t be used for games anyway, so any statistics that count them as windows gamers are bogus.
Similarly, when someone purchases Windows or compuer with Windows/Mac, a sale is added. When someone downloads Linux and installs it on a Windows computer, no one substracts 1 from Windows.
Lies, damn lies, statistics.

If id Software or Splash Damage could show percentage of Linux game clients connecting to their servers, that would be much more informative. But I don’t think they’re going to do that.

When windows 7 ships, it’s impossible to say how many will move away from linux back to windows cos they moved there cos they hated vista. Complete guesstimations there. And tbh windows isn’t the main focus, id say it consoles cos they have the largest number of potential buyers.

Except for some Ubuntu users, don’t count on any Linux users switching back. They were not looking for a Windows clone. They have other reasons for preferring Linux, and win7 won’t change that. Price, freedom, customizability etc.
As for consoles, as long as people need PCs games for them will be made. If some big studio like EA moves away from PC - great ! When big trees fall, others are more than happy to occupy their space. There are too many cinematic games with forgettable gameplay. Let them move away to consoles.

(DarkangelUK) #46

Sure… fud… ok http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1244727

Though it did give insight as to why they’re not developing. Oh and I would love a job at MS, would beat doing what i do now :slight_smile:

(darthmob) #47

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;198236]Ok lets look at it from a different perspective, why do you think id software has decided to stop developing for linux? From my POV I think it’s cos of numbers, but i’d like to hear it from a linux users POV.[/QUOTE]It has always been a niche so why should it be an issue all of a sudden? Most likely the numbers have been increasing all the time.

According to this post it may have to do with crappy driver support.

[QUOTE=jazevec;198239]
If id Software or Splash Damage could show percentage of Linux game clients connecting to their servers, that would be much more informative. But I don’t think they’re going to do that.
[/quote]Yeah that would be a great insight.

(DarkangelUK) #48

Is something hard to grasp about this? There aren’t many games with linux support because developers don’t make them. Why do you think developers don’t spend time on linux support? Most of those were id software games, and they have no plans to support linux with idtech5 games which will lower the release amount even more.

It doesn’t make sense because you failed to understand it. Statistics like ones you bring up often show actual Linux users as windows users, if that’s the only thing available in corporation at work. And it’s not hard to believe workstations at my workplace won’t be used for games anyway, so any statistics that count them as windows gamers are bogus.
Similarly, when someone purchases Windows or compuer with Windows/Mac, a sale is added. When someone downloads Linux and installs it on a Windows computer, no one substracts 1 from Windows.
Lies, damn lies, statistics.

Conspiracy theories aside (i like how the 1st thing you read on the subject you took as gospel, and seem to think those that gather these statistic have never read that same article), what ratio of linux users do you believe have a market share? Double? Triple? Even quadruple? If so, it’s still a small number.

If id Software or Splash Damage could show percentage of Linux game clients connecting to their servers, that would be much more informative. But I don’t think they’re going to do that.

JC stated that they’re going to see how popular the linux version of Quake Live is and take those numbers into consideration of linux support rethink for idtech5 games.

Except for some Ubuntu users, don’t count on any Linux users switching back. They were not looking for a Windows clone. They have other reasons for preferring Linux, and win7 won’t change that. Price, freedom, customizability etc.
As for consoles, as long as people need PCs games for them will be made. If some big studio like EA moves away from PC - great ! When big trees fall, others are more than happy to occupy their space. There are too many cinematic games with forgettable gameplay. Let them move away to consoles.

I’ll go back to my original question that seems to be getting sidestepped, why do you think most developers don’t spend resources on linux ports? From what’s been said, there’s not a lot of games so sales would cover the costs, there’s enough users for justify it and more people are switching over… sounds like a perfect scenario, so why aren’t they developing?

(Floris) #49

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;198240]Sure… fud… ok http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1244727

Though it did give insight as to why they’re not developing. Oh and I would love a job at MS, would beat doing what i do now :)[/QUOTE]

Earlier in this thread you posted a chatlog saying all of id’s Linux ports had “nothing to do with the overall dvelopment of the game”, so that email from JC is basically saying they’re keeping the status quo, if there will be a Linux port, there will be one, if not, not. His followup email is quite interesting however, as it confirms a Linux port would at least not be “all that bad” to get running for nvidia users, so you at least got me hopeful of a Linux version of Rage <o/

(DarkangelUK) #50

I think i should point out in all this that i certainly wouldn’t mind a linux version, it can only strengthen the game by having more players playing it and keeping it alive… i just don’t see it happening, but SD has always been at hand with linux support so i’m not completely ruling it out.

(darthmob) #51

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;198245]I’ll go back to my original question that seems to be getting sidestepped, why do you think most developers don’t spend resources on linux ports? From what’s been said, there’s not a lot of games so sales would cover the costs, there’s enough users for justify it and more people are switching over… sounds like a perfect scenario, so why aren’t they developing?[/QUOTE]One word: Directx. The sales might cover the costs if you were developing the game for opengl from the beginning but I doubt it’s such an easy task to go from directx to opengl. Can you think of any big game that runs on opengl nowadays? Except for the id software titles or games based on idtech like ETQW (interesting fact: the windows version of Rage will be running on directx as well) I can’t think of any.

I think from a programming point of view it is quite effective to work with directx when you plan to release the game on pc and xbox360 as they work similar in many aspects. I have no real insight on these things but that’s what I have gathered from developer commentaries and stuff like that.

(jazevec) #52

Well judging by http://appdb.winehq.org there’s a lot of demand for Linux games. Another example of “linux users not being able to help themselves”, by the way. Sheesh.

Conspiracy theories aside (i like how the 1st thing you read on the subject you took as gospel, and seem to think those that gather these statistic have never read that same article), what ratio of linux users do you believe have a market share? Double? Triple? Even quadruple? If so, it’s still a small number.

If World of Goo is any indication, it’s closer to 5%.

Update 4: It’s only been 2 days since the release of the Linux version and it already accounts for 4.6% of the full downloads from our website. Our thanks to everyone who’s playing the game on Linux and spreading the word.
(…)
* More copies of the game were sold via our website on the day the Linux version released than any other day. This day beat the previous record by 40%. There is a market for Linux games after all :slight_smile:

http://2dboy.com/2009/02/12/world-of-goo-linux-version-is-ready/

JC stated that they’re going to see how popular the linux version of Quake Live is and take those numbers into consideration of linux support rethink for idtech5 games.

I know and I play QL. W:ET is stale, hard to find a server which doesn’t kick for doing objectives. ET:QW has serious performance and network issues. At the same time I keep an eye on Natural Selection 2. They’re Mac fans and want to release for it, so it should work good with wine too.

I’ll go back to my original question that seems to be getting sidestepped, why do you think most developers don’t spend resources on linux ports? From what’s been said, there’s not a lot of games so sales would cover the costs, there’s enough users for justify it and more people are switching over… sounds like a perfect scenario, so why aren’t they developing?

My guess would be it’s because of DirectX. There were more Linux clients released back in day when id Software engines dominated. UT was also famous for Linux support, but legal issues stopped linux UT3 version from appearing and now nobody cares about UT3 anymore.
Microsoft uses its position to create a horizontal monopoly (windows, xbox). But if you want to release for Mac or Playstation 3 you’re going to use OpenGL, which makes linux version more likely, and certainly easier to run with wine.

Additionally, developers are hesistating to commit themselves to an official Linux version. A while ago Blizzard said they had internal Linux version of their games. They never released them, but they used them to assure compatibility. It’s likely they still have them - I mean, almost all Blizzard games work surprisingly well with Wine. WOW, Diablo2, Starcraft, Warcraft 3 all have platinum/gold ratings, meaning they work great out of the box or work great after some tweaks.

By the way correct me if I’m wrong but I think Blizzard in general uses OpenGL. It saves them trouble developing Mac versions.

(DarkangelUK) #53

There’s not exactly awe-inspiring numbers from the wine website, forum has 7000 registered users, in the top 25 most popular games, the leading game has 404 votes, granted Wine was developed mainly for linux, but some of those numbers cater for mac users as well, and of course those that don’t play games at all but use it to run windows application solely. As much as I hate quoting wikipedia “In a 2007 survey by desktoplinux.com of 38,500 Linux desktop users, 31.5% of respondents reported using Wine to run Windows applications.”, so less than a third from a survey even use Wine.

Again to iterate, the more the merrier and a linux version would be cool… don’t think i’m lobbying against it, i’m just not convinced it would be as popular as stated.

(bahdom) #54

Then you also have to count those that play native linux games.

(RR2DO2) #55

Part of these performance issues are related to JC’s statement about driver support, there were several things we had to disable under linux to make it work in the first place. I’m not sure what the network issues you speak of are, I don’t know of any Linux specific ones?

PS3 doesn’t use OpenGL. It has a GLES like path, but you really don’t want to use it.

In the end, the Linux version causes a lot of extra headaches. If there is someone dedicated on the team to support the client (which mainly involves porting a lot of the simd code, implementing functional windowing/input/sound backends as well as deal with any compatibility/performance problems at the rendering side) then there is a chance that a Linux client will be made. Usually this involves someone’s spare time as a hobby project. Getting just the headless linux dedicated server up and running is a lot less effort, as this tends to be mainly based on code that is inherently written in a cross-platform manner.

Yes, Linux games can have a relatively high % of people buying a product in a short time, part of this is because there aren’t many games out there as well as dedication to their favourite platform that makes people buy these games. This shows their dedication to their platform. However, a lot of these people will also be able to run Windows and create a VM or dual boot to play there games - often because the Windows experience will likely guarantee a more tested and stable way to play. Unfortunately, from a commercial POV there is no real critical mass yet in this segment. This is unlike the Mac market, where a port is more likely to be profitable.

(jazevec) #56

Network issues - infamous “Connection to online services lost”. And kicked out of a server after 5-15 minutes. As far as I remember there was no official statement on this. Rumor has it it’s because ET:QW uses P2P for authentication, and net providers like chello give it very low priority. I managed to reduce it somewhat using tor and packet tunneling.

I’m pretty sure my ET:QW problem with FPS is not limited to Linux. It’s the “good PC, bad FPS” syndrome you surely know about:

http://community.enemyterritory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8598

FPS all over the place unless server is empty. This is the only game I have behaving like this. Prey, Quake Live, Trine, Quake4, Doom3 all have stable FPS. Curiously, lowering detail to the extreme low doesn’t help ! ET:QW version which had memory leak worked better, but of course it only lasted for a while. Note that often cg_showFPS prints a high number, but it looks like 20ish in game.

My machine is 8800 GTS, Core2Duo E6750, 2 GB RAM and so forth. Actually I upgraded it specifically for ET:QW.

In any case, thanks for shedding some light on Linux porting, RR2DO2.

(Rahdo) #57

all i can say to this is the ball is in Bethesda’s court. if they see the financial incentive to do Linux (or mac) ports, they’ll do them. if not, they won’t. it’s their money, and you’ve got to take the argument to them. we’re just trying to make the best game we can :slight_smile:

(jRAD) #58

[quote=jazevec;198341]Rumor has it it’s because ET:QW uses P2P for authentication, and net providers like chello give it very low priority.
[/quote]

It doesn’t use P2P, but some providers erroneously filter the data as if it were P2P and drop or throttle it. The ball is firmly in these provider’s court; they’re doing the Wrong Thing with valid network traffic. (The official thread is here: http://community.enemyterritory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11040 )

(mortis) #59

Yes, I recall that ISP discussion now. Those bastard ISPs!

On Ubuntu, ETQW would freak out if the screensaver engaged during the game (aka it didn’t override or turn off the screensaver). I have to set it at max delay when I played ETQW in linux. Otherwise, it worked like a charm. Some people were doing bizarre kernel tweaks, but I had no issues apart from the scrrensaver thingie.

(jazevec) #60

I hope you won’t mid if I stray a little off-topic.This is what TTimo has to say about id games and Linux:

Fundamentally nothing has changed with our policy regarding Linux games. Trying to shoehorn the ZeniMax acquisition into this is pointless, as they are true to their word of focusing on the business and letting the studio focus on the games.
Linux players represent about 5% of the QuakeLive population,

Hah ! I 5%, it turns out I was damn accurate with my recent guesstimate.

We never commit to releasing Linux versions for any of our titles, at least not until we are reasonably sure that we have the resources to put into it. In the past few years I am pretty much the only one who has been involved in our Linux versions, and most of that work was done in my spare time.
(…)
It is likely i will be involved with idTech 5 in the near future, I’ll be damned if we don’t find the time to get Linux builds done.

Source:
http://ttimo.vox.com/library/post/id-software-and-linux.html