Port for Linux.

(DarkangelUK) #21

Also afaik, the linux versions of previous games were also done in the devs spare time, so really official dev time weren’t spent on the linux version at all. It’s nice that they care about linux, but really it has no valid reason for a port except for the age old “we hate M$” excuse.

(bahdom) #22

There IS a valid reason, the players that use linux. Granted, it might not be the best option from a purely commercial point of view, but there definitely is a valid reason to consider it.

Alot of people use linux for other reasons than " ‘we hate M$’ excuse".

In case it isn’t obvious, I’m not very keen on generalizations.

(DarkangelUK) #23

Actually a lot of players don’t use linux in the grand scheme of things, hence the reason it has to ported by developers in their spare time. There’s probably more call for a mac version than a linux version, and even then that’s a small number and barely worth the effort involved.

(bahdom) #24

Do you happen to have the post/document where they say that the Linux port was revealed on their spare time? You quote that quite often and personally I can’t recall reading it.

We both agree that Linux doesn’t have enough demand to be a target platform for primary development and we both agree it would be nice if they did. I’m guessing we won’t get any further so we can just leave it at that.

(DarkangelUK) #25

I remember reading it many times, but jRAD will probably shoot me in the face for this quote but…

«03:47:43» {+DarkangelUK} what id game was ported to linux and was done in the devs own spare time and nothing to do with the overall dvelopment of the game?
«03:54:22» {+Tron-} Q3A?
«03:54:42» {@jRAD} all of them :>
«03:56:33» {+syd_} :slight_smile:
«03:57:12» {@jRAD} I’m factually accurate when I’m drunk

(bahdom) #26

lol, no wonder I hadn’t read it before, IRC?

funny quote btw =p

(DarkangelUK) #27

In all seriousness, i did read it that most linux ports were done by a single developer in his spare time. Had i known that i would run into this exact discussion then i would’ve bookmarked it, unfortunately for me i never.

(bahdom) #28

I’ll take your word. I was actually under the impression that they did have 1 employee doing the linux version for etqw full time. Oh well.

(Joe999) #29

[QUOTE=bahdom;198197]saying everyone can spend 100$ for a game seems a like a bit too much imho [btw, that’d be 50 for 7 and 50 for the game]

Either way, its a matter of choice. If it came out only for mac would you go out and buy a mac?[/QUOTE]

i see it from a console point of view. using linux and playing on windows is like using windows and playing on a console. you invest 50 euro into one os and can play whatever you want, not only linux ports. hence i wouldn’t say you spend 100$ on it. it’s a one time investment of 50$ to be able to play whatever pc game you want.

i wouldn’t buy a mac for a game. but just as a comparison: i bought resident evil 4 including a game cube only because i heard that the game was awesome. and it was. totally worth the 150$. as you said, it’s a matter of choice. but from my point of view it’s more like what people are willing to do, not what the devs should do.

i’m really curious what a good reason is that justifies a linux port. anyone got an answer for me? :slight_smile:

edit: just fyi: i’m not a m$ fan and i hate gfw live and i hate steam. i hate everything that involves marketplaces and dependency, especially from greedy m$ who want to charge money for eg tf2 update while valve want to give it out for free (as an example). it’s just that i don’t see a reason for a linux port from a pc user / gamer point of view.

(jazevec) #30

This statement is just ridiculous. If I was mean I would put it in my signature to make fun of you.
Windows users are an example of community which can’t help itself, and keeps saying “You get no support wirh Linux”. Linux communities are famous for solving problems on their own and problem solving skills in general. And helping each other. Think about for a second - Linux requires good documentation and helpful internet community, because there’s generally not enough Linux users in any single area to rely solely on person to person help. Many people wanting to learn Linux don’t know anyone who use it.

Examples:

http://ubuntuforums.org/
(look at the amount of traffic)

https://help.ubuntu.com/community

http://wiki.debian.org/

Translating a set of instructions from one distribution to another is easy, because underlying base is open, and most importantly only needs only to be done once. The rest can follow updated instructions.

When it comes to solving computer issues, Linux fosters completely different mentality and skills. Often the person with best Windows knowledge in your local area is a Linux guy, because they know how to fix stuff and can use google. I’m frequently called to fix someone’s Windows computer, and from talks with other Linux users I know I’m not alone.

Umm, playing in an environment you like ? Without the need for antivirus, annoying popups, focus stealing apps. Not having to pay $$$ each time a new Windows version shows up ? I prefer to spend the money on hardware and occasionally games. (Many free games are good, for example very few can match playability of Dungeon Crawl SS http://crawl-ref.sourceforge.net ).
As for technical reasons, writing a multiplatform game often improves code, because you have to plan better. And it benefits all platforms.
Lastly, Linux players often possess higher technical skils. This means more people who can set up servers, create maps and mods.

(Joe999) #31

[QUOTE=jazevec;198218]Umm, playing in an environment you like ? Without the need for antivirus, annoying popups, focus stealing apps. Not having to pay $$$ each time a new Windows version shows up ? I prefer to spend the money on hardware and occasionally games. (Many free games are good, for example very few can match playability of Dungeon Crawl SS http://crawl-ref.sourceforge.net ).
As for technical reasons, writing a multiplatform game often improves code, because you have to plan better. And it benefits all platforms.
Lastly, Linux players often possess higher technical skils. This means more people who can set up servers, create maps and mods.[/QUOTE]

playing in an environment you like is a reason that doesn’t justify the port. maybe i have to express myself better: you buy a cheap windows only for gaming. only playing the games, not using the other stuff. hence the argument with antivirus, popups, focus stealing apps doesn’t have weight.

you mention “occasionally”: another reason not to port anything to linux if you look at the global scale.

regarding technical reasons you mention: means also more work, longer development time, a lot of testing

the servers can also be set up on a windows pc. and i doubt that mapping & modding has any dependency on the os

(jazevec) #32

Playing in an environment I like is a reason that justifies the port. You made a statement without any backup, so I don’t have to either.

you buy a cheap windows only for gaming. only playing the games, not using the other stuff. hence the argument with antivirus, popups, focus stealing apps doesn’t have weight.

Microsoft tax ? No thanks. And I won’t be bothered setting up separate partitions, for just for a game. I won’t maintain two redundant operating systems. I already have one. Windows would cost me in money, time, disk space etc.

you mention “occasionally”: another reason not to port anything to linux if you look at the global scale.

So just because there’s a person who occasionally buys games (me) it’s a good reason not to port games to Linux ? Care to explain your reasoning ? Is there a connection ? Plural from anecdote is not proof.

regarding technical reasons you mention: means also more work, longer development time, a lot of testing

Not if you plan ahead and start writing a game as a multiplatform one. More testing also means more bugs and issues found, which benefits all.

http://icculus.org/~icculus/writing/pyrogon.com/devdiary.html

the servers can also be set up on a windows pc. and i doubt that mapping & modding has any dependency on the os

You can meet smart people in high school, but are more likely to do so at university. There can be manga/anime with interesting story and depth, but you’re better of looking elsewhere. Linux attracts more technical people, so Linux gamers are more capable of setting up servers, creating maps, or mods.
Do you understand now ?

(Joe999) #33

i meant it’s a reason, but it doesn’t justify the port for a system with very few users compared to the other user groups (win/360/ps3). there’s lots of time & money involved in creating a game. i think that it would be better if linux users could adapt

that one i don’t understand, because in your previous post you mentioned how famous linux communities are for solving problems etc. where’s the problem in “wasting” 1 gig for another os? the only money it costs is 50$. time? 1 hour of installation. and said disk space isn’t really an argument. 1 TB costs 100$ nowadays (i don’t mean you should buy one, i mean as a linux user you should have enough disk space available)

what darkangel said: here’s not enough Linux users to warrant the time. remove the “users”, make it “gamers”

that one i don’t understand. another os for testing with lack of drivers support etc should benefit in error correction of the other platforms?

i do understand and it’s a good theory if you think that the people who like to toy with things instead of using them are more eager to hack around and create mods & maps. i have no background information on that and can only assume that it doesn’t really matter on the os itself, but rather on what people prefer to spend their time with.

(DarkangelUK) #34

You would look like a fool yourself m8, linux has an overall market share of 1.7% (OSX is at 7.11%, win7 isn’t released as is about to overtake linux user count). Now that’s just USERS, not all linux users will be gamers, so slice a chunk out of that for those that don’t game and you get an even smaller number, THEN take more off for users that just won’t buy the game, don’t like FPS games etc and that number is even lower. That very small number is scattered between many distributions of varying linux versions.

So no m8, there aren’t enough users to warrant working on a linux port :slight_smile:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/43862/140/

(murka) #35

About half of gameservers run on linux, so at least server files for linux are needed, and if that is done, making a linux port for players wont be much harder.

Also about statistics, if you slice the market share for linux, do so for windows and you end up with the exact same percentages…

(darthmob) #36

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;198039]It’s called a joke man, a JOKE! I know you’re german but come on…[/QUOTE]Yeah but you still got a point. It would be interesting to see the sales of a linux version.

It seems like id software is giving the mac more attention given the fact that Rage is developed on consoles, mac and pc right from the start. I wonder if there are actually more people playing on a mac than on linux. The biggest reason for not using a mac for me is the price. Regular ones are quite expensive, and one with good hardware that is capable of running current generation games has to cost a shitload of money. That and I imagine you can’t just get newer hardware for it without going through major troubles with warrantees and overpriced hardware.

The problem with those debates about ports is that every argument is based on estimates and personal impressions. I want to see hard facts! How many people played ETQW regularly on a mac / linux / windows version. How many people play Quake Live on windows / linux / mac (mac wouldn’t really count as it’s still broken for most of the users) regularly? Not numbers based on polls but from server hosters and developers.

That information has to be available to the server admins in some way. If I would code ports, I would make them identify themselves to get a feedback. That’s what I like about steam. Their hardware surveys are based on information gathered by the clients. Those numbers are real and I think they are a great representation of what setups gamers use.

//edit:

I seriously doubt you can compare the both. A server does not have to play sound and display graphics and I imagine those are the tricky bits to get right because there are way too many varieties in linux setups with those two things.

(DarkangelUK) #37

Is that an educated statement or flawed logic? Many people throw around “it can’t be much harder” statements with no idea at all of what’s involved.

Also about statistics, if you slice the market share for linux, do so for windows and you end up with the exact same percentages…

I’m not exactly sure what you mean here, what percentages? We’re not arguing the validity of a windows version, cos we know that’s getting made, we’re arguing a linux version and it’s those numbers that count, not windows.

(jazevec) #38

Your talk of “linux market share” leaves me wondering if you know what Linux is. Last time I checked Linux was not being sold on markets. It’s still predominantly downloaded.

What makes you think that windows users are especially likely to buy a game like Brink ? With so much competition, players are likely to choose something else from a myriad of call of duty/far cry 2/ fear2 or some other forgettable shooter. Meanwhile Brink on Linux would be a big fish in a small pond. There’s not much to choose from when it comes to Linux FPS games - Quake Live, other id Software games, ET:QW, W:ET.
I use Linux at home, but have windows workstation at work. I would be counted as a Windows user.

If you like links, here’s an article for you about statistics and Linux

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3687616

(…)
There are more problems that need to be taken into consideration. For example, data gathered by Web sites neglects to identify computers that are operated behind proxies, or even Squid. This data also assumes that everyone identifies himself or herself in a truly honest fashion. In fact, that certain Web sites were designed to reject access from every Web browser other than Internet Explorer. As a result, many Linux users are forced to pretend (by altering HTTP headers) that they use a typical Windows setup. This is known as spoofing or forging and it is a matter of convenience.

The last factor to consider here are the botnets (zombie PCs) that travel the World Wide Web. It’s a relentless Web journey and this happens without the awareness of the rightful owner of the computer. This troublesome phenomenon means that large levels of Web traffic is devoured in a very wasteful fashion. It does not accurately reflect human consumption of information. Botnets act to ‘pollute’ log data and therefore tweak statistics. It rarely (if ever) works in favor of secure operating systems and Web browsers.

(Floris) #39

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;198224]You would look like a fool yourself m8, linux has an overall market share of 1.7% (OSX is at 7.11%, win7 isn’t released as is about to overtake linux user count). Now that’s just USERS, not all linux users will be gamers, so slice a chunk out of that for those that don’t game and you get an even smaller number, THEN take more off for users that just won’t buy the game, don’t like FPS games etc and that number is even lower. That very small number is scattered between many distributions of varying linux versions.

So no m8, there aren’t enough users to warrant working on a linux port :slight_smile:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/43862/140/[/QUOTE]

Ehm, you can say there are thirty times as much Windows users as Linux users, but how many times more games does Brink have to compete with on the Windows platform? A Linux version will most likely break even for the extra development costs (considering SD already use OpenGL and multiple sound systems), and with Chrome OS coming up it’s just impossible to say how many people will be using Linux at the time Brink ships.

(Joe999) #40

how high do you think are the chances that people would pay for a single game, if they don’t (want to) pay for the os?