Playing with friends - The struggle.

(B_Montiel) #81

On rocket league, players are just set together due to their level. If you party, the game will just take a median level. Nothing close from what db does. The quick game format does not even need a similar system. And rocket league system clearly shows skill differences. Until I get pro, most of my solo games were literal stomps because I started with a teacher who already had almost 100 hours when I bought the games and I progressed very quickly.

Just consider time spent, pretty much like rocket league does, will be pointless in this game. I play in a clan where most of the players are strong W:ET/ET:QW veterans, and for some of them who started recently, they started to be as good as most level 20 at level 6 or 7. Level is absolutely meaningless currently. Min 10 servers are just a way to sort players. After level 10, you are supposed to have the necessary background/experience to understand most of the game mechanics. Nothing related to skill.

(Jurmabones) #82

He’s correlating time played to experience to potential skill.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but typically people with higher level are better at the game. Quit playing semantics to disagree for its own sake, it’s annoying. It’s like you guys will do anything to agree with everything stupid SD does.

I mean, we see that sort of level sorting he described too in comp matches and now in pubs. Why would they make a totally different algorithm for sorting pubs? It’s probably the same thing from comp.

Either they’re lying about it sorting by individual performance over the last 10 games, or level is a good indicator of skill for the most part.

(Amerika) #83

[quote=“Jurmabones;86707”]He’s correlating time played to experience to potential skill.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but typically people with higher level are better at the game. Quit playing semantics to disagree for its own sake, it’s annoying. It’s like you guys will do anything to agree with everything stupid SD does.

I mean, we see that sort of level sorting he described too in comp matches and now in pubs. Why would they make a totally different algorithm for sorting pubs? It’s probably the same thing from comp.

Either they’re lying about it sorting by individual performance over the last 10 games, or level is a good indicator of skill for the most part.[/quote]

I know what he’s saying. It simply is not relevant to how the system works and what it uses to calculate your current skill level used for public game sorting. The system used for ranked MM is different than your pub rating as it factors in your current hidden score regardless of your performance in your last 10 matches.

This is how it works. There is a hidden ELO that keeps your current rating and your potential rating that is used for ranked MM. Then it uses a similar system that only keeps track of your last 10 games for public servers. It’s always worked this way. Your account level has never been a factor.

Also, I am not “doing anything to agree with everything stupid SD does.” Just because I am going off of how the system works doesn’t mean that I’m trying to agree with anybody other than the facts.

You might want to look up the phrase correlation does not imply causation as it’s relevant here for multiple points.

(Szakalot) #84

On the subject:

why doesn’t the skill sorting take into account your overall stats? why not 50/50 of your all-time stats and last 10 games?

Imo 10 games can be very inaccurate: I play a suboptimal merc - my rating will go down. I get unlucky in a few games, nobody is a medic/people are worse than shuffle thought - rating will go down. Similarly - i got lucky: good teammates, fast plant - my rating will go up. Disproportionately to the the actual skill levels.

It seems to me that taking into account person’s all-time stats would give a better indication whether they are overall good, or just got lucky/unlucky in a few games.

Unlike many other FPSes, differences in skill levels are very polarizing. If you’re just a bit better than the opponent, it can easily turn into a stomp. Other opposite would be QW, where the big 12v12 games, with lots of low-skill-floor vehicles would normalize the skill level.

(Amerika) #85

That’s a good question. I don’t know why it hasn’t been done or at least used for calculations. It’s been asked multiple times how pub balancing works and it’s always been an answer of it using your last 10 games played to determine your current skill level. It’s possible that they want a recent snapshot of your performance to more accurately gauge how you should be weighted against the competition. You might be playing a sub-optimal merc for quite a while and if the system was using lifetime stats you might get frustrated learning a new merc. It’s a good question.

I’d personally still like to get rid of public viewable account levels and bring back limited merc levels. Then have your current skill rating weight be created from how well you’ve done per merc that is in your current rotation as opposed to a generic last 10 games value or lifetime stats value. It would more accurately gauge your current level with the mercs you are using and it would remove the need to have this particular conversation in regards to account level = skill even more times in the future.

(MarsRover) #86

[quote=“Amerika;86845”]That’s a good question. I don’t know why it hasn’t been done or at least used for calculations. It’s been asked multiple times how pub balancing works and it’s always been an answer of it using your last 10 games played to determine your current skill level. It’s possible that they want a recent snapshot of your performance to more accurately gauge how you should be weighted against the competition. You might be playing a sub-optimal merc for quite a while and if the system was using lifetime stats you might get frustrated learning a new merc. It’s a good question.

I’d personally still like to get rid of public viewable account levels and bring back limited merc levels. Then have your current skill rating weight be created from how well you’ve done per merc that is in your current rotation as opposed to a generic last 10 games value or lifetime stats value. It would more accurately gauge your current level with the mercs you are using and it would remove the need to have this particular conversation in regards to account level = skill even more times in the future.[/quote]

I’ve stopped counting how many times I’ve clicked Agree on your post about this particular subject :slight_smile: I can’t think of any upsides for visible account levels. And before someone asks, catering to the modern “put levels in everything” crowd is not an upside. The balance confusion alone is enough to hide them.

(Black) #87

[quote=“Amerika;86845”]That’s a good question. I don’t know why it hasn’t been done or at least used for calculations. It’s been asked multiple times how pub balancing works and it’s always been an answer of it using your last 10 games played to determine your current skill level. It’s possible that they want a recent snapshot of your performance to more accurately gauge how you should be weighted against the competition. You might be playing a sub-optimal merc for quite a while and if the system was using lifetime stats you might get frustrated learning a new merc. It’s a good question.

I’d personally still like to get rid of public viewable account levels and bring back limited merc levels. Then have your current skill rating weight be created from how well you’ve done per merc that is in your current rotation as opposed to a generic last 10 games value or lifetime stats value. It would more accurately gauge your current level with the mercs you are using and it would remove the need to have this particular conversation in regards to account level = skill even more times in the future.[/quote]

Level does not always correlate to skill but it’s relevant to it.
Why do levels for each individual merc?

I mean if I was playing vassili getting headshots with ease, why would you allow me to play with inexperienced players when I choose a different merc?
I will just start stomping them.

(Amerika) #88

[quote=“BlackFro;86952”][quote=“Amerika;86845”]That’s a good question. I don’t know why it hasn’t been done or at least used for calculations. It’s been asked multiple times how pub balancing works and it’s always been an answer of it using your last 10 games played to determine your current skill level. It’s possible that they want a recent snapshot of your performance to more accurately gauge how you should be weighted against the competition. You might be playing a sub-optimal merc for quite a while and if the system was using lifetime stats you might get frustrated learning a new merc. It’s a good question.

I’d personally still like to get rid of public viewable account levels and bring back limited merc levels. Then have your current skill rating weight be created from how well you’ve done per merc that is in your current rotation as opposed to a generic last 10 games value or lifetime stats value. It would more accurately gauge your current level with the mercs you are using and it would remove the need to have this particular conversation in regards to account level = skill even more times in the future.[/quote]

Level does not always correlate to skill but it’s relevant to it.
Why do levels for each individual merc?

I mean if I was playing vassili getting headshots with ease, why would you allow me to play with inexperienced players when I choose a different merc?
I will just start stomping them.[/quote]

My pitch is that you’d have a level cap of maybe 10 for each merc. Then people could see you maxed them so you have plenty of hours behind playing them but you won’t be ridiculed for being too high, too low, having people expect more out of you than you can give or give people the wrong idea about how the balancing system works. Also, fun things like titles, taunts, achievements, skins and other stuff could be attached to maxing them and they could be increased from time to time for big content events. It would make levels mean something and be fun and lose most of the negativity surrounding account levels. The game already had something like this a while back. I mostly just want it brought back and expanded.

I’m not sure what you mean by “allow you to play with inexperienced players”.

-edit- Ardez mentioned that you might be trying to say that you can jump on what is the equivalent of a max level 5 server by using a merc you have never used before. That isn’t what I’m saying. New player servers could still be done easily and could even still use your account level. It’s just that your account level is hidden from everyone but you.

(Black) #89

[quote=“Amerika;86960”][quote=“BlackFro;86952”][quote=“Amerika;86845”]That’s a good question. I don’t know why it hasn’t been done or at least used for calculations. It’s been asked multiple times how pub balancing works and it’s always been an answer of it using your last 10 games played to determine your current skill level. It’s possible that they want a recent snapshot of your performance to more accurately gauge how you should be weighted against the competition. You might be playing a sub-optimal merc for quite a while and if the system was using lifetime stats you might get frustrated learning a new merc. It’s a good question.

I’d personally still like to get rid of public viewable account levels and bring back limited merc levels. Then have your current skill rating weight be created from how well you’ve done per merc that is in your current rotation as opposed to a generic last 10 games value or lifetime stats value. It would more accurately gauge your current level with the mercs you are using and it would remove the need to have this particular conversation in regards to account level = skill even more times in the future.[/quote]

Level does not always correlate to skill but it’s relevant to it.
Why do levels for each individual merc?

I mean if I was playing vassili getting headshots with ease, why would you allow me to play with inexperienced players when I choose a different merc?
I will just start stomping them.[/quote]

My pitch is that you’d have a level cap of maybe 10 for each merc. Then people could see you maxed them so you have plenty of hours behind playing them but you won’t be ridiculed for being too high, too low, having people expect more out of you than you can give or give people the wrong idea about how the balancing system works. Also, fun things like titles, taunts, achievements, skins and other stuff could be attached to maxing them and they could be increased from time to time for big content events. It would make levels mean something and be fun and lose most of the negativity surrounding account levels. The game already had something like this a while back. I mostly just want it brought back and expanded.

I’m not sure what you mean by “allow you to play with inexperienced players”.

-edit- Ardez mentioned that you might be trying to say that you can jump on what is the equivalent of a max level 5 server by using a merc you have never used before. That isn’t what I’m saying. New player servers could still be done easily and could even still use your account level. It’s just that your account level is hidden from everyone but you.[/quote]

Mkay.

([SDS]DOA) #90

This whole “if you want to play with friends you should go play MM” idea seems backwards to me. If you want more balanced teams, it seems to me that YOU should be the one playing MATCH MAKING instead of a public server where anybody of any skill level can join or leave at any time and impact the precious balance of the teams.

(Jurmabones) #91

Again playing semantics to avoid the actual discussion.

Nobody is saying higher level CAUSES higher skill. We’re saying higher level tends to indicate, or in general CORRELATES to higher skill.

Agreed. It’s really obvious here the new lobby system is a disaster: it didn’t achieve it’s supposed, stated purpose (of getting rid of “stomps” in pubs) and has done nothing besides drive away more players.

(Merci1ess) #92

Again playing semantics to avoid the actual discussion.

Nobody is saying higher level CAUSES higher skill. We’re saying higher level tends to indicate, or in general CORRELATES to higher skill.

Agreed. It’s really obvious here the new lobby system is a disaster: it didn’t achieve it’s supposed, stated purpose (of getting rid of “stomps” in pubs) and has done nothing besides drive away more players.

[/quote]

I’m seriously starting to think that they’re trying to make this game fail. It’s the second time they’ve made the mistake of making changes based on the wrong complaints.

http://puu.sh/koepb/1470800f87.jpg

Please guys… Stop fucking up. I really love this game but this is getting ridiculous.

(Amerika) #93

Again playing semantics to avoid the actual discussion.

Nobody is saying higher level CAUSES higher skill. We’re saying higher level tends to indicate, or in general CORRELATES to higher skill.

Agreed. It’s really obvious here the new lobby system is a disaster: it didn’t achieve it’s supposed, stated purpose (of getting rid of “stomps” in pubs) and has done nothing besides drive away more players.

[/quote]

We were discussing how the system balances and Trite kept bringing up account level in regards to balance. The system does not ever use account level when balancing DB matches. I was never discussing anything in regards to time spent equating to being a better player because the conversation was strictly about the balance system and how it works. So your use of the word semantics isn’t applicable here and I thought it was really odd the last time you used it.

I honestly don’t like the fact that they released this change to the lobby system without giving at least an option for a limited party system as well. But your last paragraph is a bit weird when considering the poll.

(triteTongs) #94

Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say.

I brought it up because it’s relevant, IMO. But the problem still remains…
Even if you disable the levels… players will still be bad and the server browser is still randomly filling the empty server slots.

I just got out of a game where I switched teams in a stopwatch to help fight against a slaughter. The team that I switched from called me out and got pissed at me. Since the pubstomped team is now doing the pubstomping. They were legitimately angry at me for attempting to rebalance the teams.

The only variable that changed was me switching teams.

How can the game even balance when I’m the deciding factor in a win against lower level players?

It can’t. Without a system funneling another similar skilled player for me to fight against… it’s ALWAYS going to be imbalanced. No matter what kind of server-based balance no-friends system get’s built…

(Jurmabones) #95

Nearly a third of the people who saw that poll say they hate a new feature added to the game. How is it a bit weird to call that a disaster?

It’s not like a handful of people saying “Oh that new merc isn’t my cup of tea.” It’s like a third of the forums saying, “Me and all my friends (who don’t post themselves) hate the new merc and are seriously considering or already have quit the game over it.”

What would YOU call the new lobby system? Especially considering:

  1. Player count is dropping.
  2. A large part of the community hates the change.
  3. Pub stomping still occurs just like before the patch.

So the new lobby system didn’t fix the non-issue it was attempting to address, people are quitting over it and tons of people hate it. How is that anything but a disaster?

(Szakalot) #96

[quote=“Jurmabones;87120”]Nearly a third of the people who saw that poll say they hate a new feature added to the game. How is it a bit weird to call that a disaster?

It’s not like a handful of people saying “Oh that new merc isn’t my cup of tea.” It’s like a third of the forums saying, “Me and all my friends (who don’t post themselves) hate the new merc and are seriously considering or already have quit the game over it.”

What would YOU call the new lobby system? Especially considering:

  1. Player count is dropping.
  2. A large part of the community hates the change.
  3. Pub stomping still occurs just like before the patch.

So the new lobby system didn’t fix the non-issue it was attempting to address, people are quitting over it and tons of people hate it. How is that anything but a disaster?[/quote]

well if you want to read into polls like that, one thirds of the forums is saying ‘this is the best change ever, and I’m sure to get all my friends to play DB for years to come and spends billions of real $$ on it!’. See what I did there?

(Szakalot) #97

[quote=“triteTongs;87118”][quote=“Jurmabones;87085”]
Nobody is saying higher level CAUSES higher skill. We’re saying higher level tends to indicate, or in general CORRELATES to higher skill.
[/quote]
Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say.

I brought it up because it’s relevant, IMO. But the problem still remains…
Even if you disable the levels… players will still be bad and the server browser is still randomly filling the empty server slots.

I just got out of a game where I switched teams in a stopwatch to help fight against a slaughter. The team that I switched from called me out and got pissed at me. Since the pubstomped team is now doing the pubstomping. They were legitimately angry at me for attempting to rebalance the teams.

The only variable that changed was me switching teams.

How can the game even balance when I’m the deciding factor in a win against lower level players?

It can’t. Without a system funneling another similar skilled player for me to fight against… it’s ALWAYS going to be imbalanced. No matter what kind of server-based balance no-friends system get’s built… [/quote]

you don’t get it.

Yes, high level means its more likely a player is higher skilled.

But this has NOTHING TO DO WITH GAME BALANCE. Game balance is not done by looking at the player’s level, but the player’s actual performance (in the last 10 games). This is what Amerika was trying to hammer in for the last two pages or so, but you guys seem to be not getting.

(B_Montiel) #98

No matter how they’ll try to funnel players, if it’s automatically, there’s more than a high probability that it will fail. The current problem is that the community can’t funnel itself by having community servers or specific meeting points that will somehow correspond to their expectations in terms of having a good pub time. Being highly experienced in the game does not mean you have to be forced to go matchmaking or stopwatch to have a good time. I personally would hate the need of starting a party to play with mates on an obj server. If I had the opportunity to have a some place where I am assured to have a good fraction of the players having a similar skill than me and my friends, team stack will be a minor issue as the skill gap between players would lower, and the action more clutchy, more interesting overall.

The level is something you should totally put out of your head. DB is not in a moba (don’t mind the smurfs or re-rolls) where, yes, it’s very correlated to your game understanding. Unless you’ve played hundreds of games, you won’t have the opportunity to face all the game aspects, and have a minimum repeated time to understand how you will need to react. In this respect, DB has way less in common with chess than they do.
Literal moving and aiming skill are very important here and therefore totally offset all players situations compared to their in-game level, higher or lower. Anyone who played former sd games at least 500 hours, quake, ut and their natural forks will get a quick grip compared to someone who is used to cs:go, cod or battlefield. I’m not even mentioning people who spent the last two years on the closed beta. If I cumulate all the time I’ve spent on DB, I’d say that since I’ve played the equivalent of current level 15, my skill improved on a very slowly fashion. And this skill threshold is totally different for everyone.

(MarsRover) #99

After playing for 3h daily since the change I see a difference. The great majority of “stomps” that happen are because of bad team composition, like on Chapel when defenders don’t have anyone to destroy the EV (they had Skyhammers in squads but chose not to switch, no balancing system can fix that). Played some Stopwatch for reference and yeah, the difference is perceptible. Incredible what simply pushing team assignment a little forward in time can do.

Would we be better with a casual MM system that supports and accounts for premades? Probably. Will we get one? Who knows. For now having one balanced casual mode is a net benefit to the game.

And let’s not forget, even before this change there was no convenient party system for casual. DB is not finished yet. Let’s focus our energy there and push for SD to make it a higher priority. Stop warping a simple yet effective change in team balancing in one mode into “those anti-social loner solo queuers conspire against us out of pure spite”.

[quote=“Jurmabones;87120”]Nearly a third of the people who saw that poll say they hate a new feature added to the game. How is it a bit weird to call that a disaster?
[/quote]
The poll is badly worded and mixes two things - new UI and the change to team assignment. If you look through this thread you see people voting “hate it” or “love it” solely because of the UI.

And like Szakalot said, you can twist it any way you want - 30% love it and 70% are at least OK with it.

(asparagusMist) #100

i dont get why the friends thing was changed.you have made the game worse .

the whole interface of playing was better before the patch.

you need it simple easy to decide what you doing and vote on what you want without jumping through hurdles. you dont need fancy colours or images. just something that works with the least amount of effort. why do so many games developers get this wrong with just joining and playing ?

people want to get in game as fast as possible with friends with no time wasted or as little as possible.

now with this change many thing are less clear and i cant just join with friends which is the whole point i play this game ! is with friends !

multiplayer gaming on pc is mainly with friends in voice coms. realize this . work it out.