Phoenix Issues

(Jurmabones) #61

[quote=“ColonelDumpling;80034”][quote=“Szakalot;80003”][quote=“Jurmabones;79998”][quote=“Amerika;79643”][quote=“Clown;79622”][quote=“Amerika;79461”]
3. I am pretty sure this is by design. It makes people not be able to run around with the healing pulse ready to instantly heal them or a teammate at all times but then allow them to cancel it and engage in a fight immediately and still have the CD available to them a few seconds later. If they allowed this I would have been abusing the hell out of it last night when playing.[/quote]

Then it was a bad idea. There are so many times where I want to heal a player and they just keep running away or they then get healed by someone else. I don’t think it would be much of an issue if players wanted to just keep their healing pulse ready, considering how long the cooldown is, it’s not as strong of a heal as Sawbonez’s packs or Aura’s station.

EDIT: And even if they want this to stick, at least make it so the healing pulse actually activates.[/quote]

Dunno. As a player I totally agree with you. It would be awesome. But I can also think of a lot of instances where it would be OP as hell having a full burst heal ready to go at all times that can be canceled with no penalty. It would be crazy powerful.

I guess if it turns out to be too weak it can always be adjusted later.[/quote]
Canceled with no penalty… Why would there need to be a penalty if nobody got healed though?

I dunno, I guess I just think Phoenix is kind of meh compared to Sawbonez besides having access to the kek-10.
[/quote]

because being able to have a full hp heal constantly ready would be op. Phoenix would do nothing else but keep spamming it behind teammates, ready to heal when things start to go wrong.

The present systems forces you to time your heals, which is good.[/quote]

You can pretty much do that already with Sawbonez. His med packs have an even smaller cooldown and he can just spam those for eternity.[/quote]

Exactly. If you didn’t heal somebody and canceled it, you didn’t get any value out of it and also prevented yourself from being able to shoot. Sawbonez can just drop a pack and start shooting, and has more hpacks waiting if needed. With Phoenix, you directly trade off offensive potential AND get a cooldown even if you didn’t put out any healing. It doesn’t make any sense.

(Derpfestor) #62

[quote=“Jurmabones;80062”][quote=“ColonelDumpling;80034”][quote=“Szakalot;80003”][quote=“Jurmabones;79998”][quote=“Amerika;79643”][quote=“Clown;79622”][quote=“Amerika;79461”]
3. I am pretty sure this is by design. It makes people not be able to run around with the healing pulse ready to instantly heal them or a teammate at all times but then allow them to cancel it and engage in a fight immediately and still have the CD available to them a few seconds later. If they allowed this I would have been abusing the hell out of it last night when playing.[/quote]

Then it was a bad idea. There are so many times where I want to heal a player and they just keep running away or they then get healed by someone else. I don’t think it would be much of an issue if players wanted to just keep their healing pulse ready, considering how long the cooldown is, it’s not as strong of a heal as Sawbonez’s packs or Aura’s station.

EDIT: And even if they want this to stick, at least make it so the healing pulse actually activates.[/quote]

Dunno. As a player I totally agree with you. It would be awesome. But I can also think of a lot of instances where it would be OP as hell having a full burst heal ready to go at all times that can be canceled with no penalty. It would be crazy powerful.

I guess if it turns out to be too weak it can always be adjusted later.[/quote]
Canceled with no penalty… Why would there need to be a penalty if nobody got healed though?

I dunno, I guess I just think Phoenix is kind of meh compared to Sawbonez besides having access to the kek-10.
[/quote]

because being able to have a full hp heal constantly ready would be op. Phoenix would do nothing else but keep spamming it behind teammates, ready to heal when things start to go wrong.

The present systems forces you to time your heals, which is good.[/quote]

You can pretty much do that already with Sawbonez. His med packs have an even smaller cooldown and he can just spam those for eternity.[/quote]

Exactly. If you didn’t heal somebody and canceled it, you didn’t get any value out of it and also prevented yourself from being able to shoot. Sawbonez can just drop a pack and start shooting, and has more hpacks waiting if needed. With Phoenix, you directly trade off offensive potential AND get a cooldown even if you didn’t put out any healing. It doesn’t make any sense.[/quote]

Let’s not forget Sawbonzes has 10 more hp than Phoenix, along with better weapons. While the Kek-10 is by far the best SMG in the game, Sawbonzes just has more versatility.

(B_Montiel) #63

[quote=“Szakalot;79892”][quote=“B. Montiel;79380”][quote=“Clown;17476”]

  1. After self-revive is activated, you are still able to be gibbed during the get up animation, however it will count as an activation and you’ll have a minute cooldown before you can activate the self-revive again. They either need to remove the animation, make Phoenix immune during the animation or make it so it only counts as an activation after the animation.
    [/quote]

It is working accordingly with the gib after revive mechanic any other medic can experience. I don’t like this overall mechanic personally but I think this is how self-revive should act and be wasted if you get gibbed during this short period of time.[/quote]

I disagree, imo Phoenix self-revive is a unique revive ability, and since already hugely situational this drawback should be removed.

I’d like incapacitated Phoenix to be an immediate threat that has to be gibbed, sort of like martyrdom is; if you want to cross over the body.

Finishing the self-revive while already being shot at, and then dying mid-revive is very frustrating.

If we want self-revive to be a more tactical choice, you could:

  • spent cooldown even if you ATTEMPT self-revive
  • making you invulnerable once the self-revive action is complete.

This way, trying to use an obvious self-revive in front of enemies will get instantly punished. But you will remove the frustration of completing the self-revived, and getting gibbed anyways.
[/quote]

I clearly understand the point you and clown exposed. I also agree that this makes the usefulness of the self-revive ultra narrow. BUT, in my opinion, the biggest problem is invulnerability strongly contradicts already wobbly mechanics. Doing pile on top of it strongly reduces the readability of the whole thing, aka reviving mechanics. And it’s just plain bad especially if they contradict each other between different layers. Just to be clear, gib after revive is, from my point of view, a workaround included in the overall anti-lag system, and is quite unfair to both the healer and the downed bob in 90% of times.

So, instead of adding more and more mechanics to something very questionnable at start, I’d prefer :

  • A deeper look on the gib after revive system, or even further on the overall anti-lag
  • Or a complete rebuild of the self-revive ability, which is currently not satisfying at all, if they keep the gib after revive as is.

The biggest problem of the self revive is the charge, which is imo the biggest source of difficulties with this ability. Why not remove the charge and instead give a n seconds gap where the self revive can’t be used, then you can use it instantly on tap ?

(Amerika) #64

If you try to revive as somebody is rushing towards you to knife you or you’re being shot then that’s on you entirely.

(Yes) #65

Obviously self-reviving in those situations isn’t good, but there are plenty of other situations where you shouldn’t be punished for you using your self-revive.
If your body is moved either by an explosion or if it’s in a lift, the camera doesn’t follow you, so you are completely unaware of the situation.
If there are no enemies around and one conveniently walks around the corner to you just as the self-revive finishes.
If the enemy is shooting at one of your teammates and the get up animation causes you to take the bullets.

I would also like to add, if you are surrounded by enemies and manage to pull off a self-revive, they should be punished, not you. Currently, the animation acts as a reminder for them to gib you, but you also get the added bonus of being punished for their ignorance, by having your ability go on cooldown.

I don’t think being gibbed during the animation is bad by itself, it’s the fact that it causes to put your ability on cooldown.

(Jurmabones) #66

I think Phoenix would be pretty good if they got rid of the non-use cooldowns from his abilities. If you cancel your heal or get gibbed before the revive occurs, there’s no reason it should go on cooldown.

(JesseKomm) #67

If that were the case then Fragger’s grenade shouldn’t get a tiny cooldown if you cancel it while it’s cooking. The reason why it does is because it rewards timing, mistime your ability and you will have a cooldown to deal with so that you cannot simply “try again” a second later when it’s more optimal. As Phoenix you should understand that there is a very slim chance of self-reviving when enemies are nearby and if you take that risk and it does not pay off then yes you should suffer some consequences.

(Yes) #68

Frags are a far more powerful ability, they shouldn’t be compared.

(JesseKomm) #69

Using it as an example that if you have poor timing with your ability and cancel it then you should have some consequences, not saying that it needs the removal of that cancelled cooldown at all, in fact it’s very much needed.

(Jurmabones) #70

Giving teammates a moderate chunk of hp compared to potentially killing and simultaneously gibbing multiple opponents in one cooldown… You literally can’t compare them.

How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale. It’d make more sense to compare it to other medic heals, which is what everyone else in the thread except you seems to understand.

(JesseKomm) #71

[quote=“Jurmabones;80146”]Giving teammates a moderate chunk of hp compared to potentially killing and simultaneously gibbing multiple opponents in one cooldown… You literally can’t compare them.

How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale. It’d make more sense to compare it to other medic heals, which is what everyone else in the thread except you seems to understand.[/quote]

However you stated that no punishment should be given for poorly timing your abilities… this is something that every merc faces if and when they cancel their ability, it’ll have a punishment of a small cooldown; you seem to forget that and think Phoenix is above everyone else and does not deserve such treatment even though it promotes smarter gameplay.

The fact I bring up Fragger’s grenades is because it is one such example of poor timing of abilities and the effect it has on you, why is that a difficult thing to understand? I’m not making a comparison of the effectiveness of each ability, I’m making a point that if you cancel you get punished… it’s barely noticeable in most cases except for self-revive in which case if you use it and get gibbed before you rise then it’s working as intended, you simply had terrible timing with your ability, you knew the risk and took it, it didn’t pay off and you have to deal with those consequences.

These are facts of gameplay mechanics, if you disagree then your problem is with the game, not with me.

(Szakalot) #72

[quote=“ColonelDumpling;80034”][quote=“Szakalot;80003”][quote=“Jurmabones;79998”][quote=“Amerika;79643”][quote=“Clown;79622”][quote=“Amerika;79461”]
3. I am pretty sure this is by design. It makes people not be able to run around with the healing pulse ready to instantly heal them or a teammate at all times but then allow them to cancel it and engage in a fight immediately and still have the CD available to them a few seconds later. If they allowed this I would have been abusing the hell out of it last night when playing.[/quote]

Then it was a bad idea. There are so many times where I want to heal a player and they just keep running away or they then get healed by someone else. I don’t think it would be much of an issue if players wanted to just keep their healing pulse ready, considering how long the cooldown is, it’s not as strong of a heal as Sawbonez’s packs or Aura’s station.

EDIT: And even if they want this to stick, at least make it so the healing pulse actually activates.[/quote]

Dunno. As a player I totally agree with you. It would be awesome. But I can also think of a lot of instances where it would be OP as hell having a full burst heal ready to go at all times that can be canceled with no penalty. It would be crazy powerful.

I guess if it turns out to be too weak it can always be adjusted later.[/quote]
Canceled with no penalty… Why would there need to be a penalty if nobody got healed though?

I dunno, I guess I just think Phoenix is kind of meh compared to Sawbonez besides having access to the kek-10.
[/quote]

because being able to have a full hp heal constantly ready would be op. Phoenix would do nothing else but keep spamming it behind teammates, ready to heal when things start to go wrong.

The present systems forces you to time your heals, which is good.[/quote]

You can pretty much do that already with Sawbonez. His med packs have an even smaller cooldown and he can just spam those for eternity.[/quote]

sawbonez medpacks are not instaheal!

Having 80hp INSTAHEAL at the ready is much stronger than having medpacks everywhere.
With medpacks, if the opponents are good, they will deny you the heal, or you have to run away to benefit from it; giving up your position.

Phoenix instaheal is much more potent in combat, thus its timing has to be limited, so that Phoenixes don’t run around with 80hp of instaheal always ready.

(The_Enema_Bandit) #73

Yes.
Even a flat sphere with average height (idk how that shape is called) would be good. This circle is pretty tricky to use with everybody parkouring around.

Since it’s an issues discussion: I don’t have any except the one above. Self-revive is working as intended; there were many times I revived myself successfully, you just have to be smart about it. Sometimes the risk didn’t pay off, but this is how it is supposed to be, it’s no god mode.

Augments are another thing that needs testing I can’t be bothered with right now, so can’t say for sure. Seems like they’re working.
And again (not game related, but still) - his loadout names are messed up big time.

(Faraleth) #74

[quote=“Jurmabones;80146”]Giving teammates a moderate chunk of hp compared to potentially killing and simultaneously gibbing multiple opponents in one cooldown… You literally can’t compare them.

How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale. It’d make more sense to compare it to other medic heals, which is what everyone else in the thread except you seems to understand.[/quote]

That’s not how balance works - balance is multi-layered. You can’t just say “this is better/worse than X of this type”, therefore it’s unbalanced, because there’s multiple aspects to it.

Medics aren’t purely healing, for example. Sparks is definitively the best medic for reviving team-mates, simply for her long distance revive, while she lacks in healing, fire-power and HP. While Sawbonez you would argue is moderate at reviving, but his health regen packs and harder hitting arsenal give him more viability in a 1-on-1 fight.

Now what you are saying about Phoenix’s cooldowns not triggering if they aren’t actually used - why should this be the case? If the ability is charged and ready to go at any moment, this could be abused to charge to full and then switch out to your weapon at the last moment to restore your cooldown (much like the Fragger grenades used to do). This means Phoenix will be running around with an “always ready” instant heal… Is that balanced? I don’t think so.

As for his self-revive cooldown being used even if he doesn’t revive fully (ie. when you get gibbed while you are in the self-revive animation), allow me to explain while this is completely fair: Phoenix is the ONLY merc in the game with a self-revive. This distinctively sets him apart from other mercs, as the general play style is “once you are down, you respawn or are helped by your team-mates”. This self-revive is incredibly powerful by itself and thus the long activation and cooldown ensure it is not abused by simply suicide charging and getting a second-wind whenever you feel like it. It is designed to be used strategically, like if you fall behind get taken out by an explosive but aren’t dead, you can bring yourself back and recover your team. You aren’t supposed to use the self-revive when you are completely surrounded, that’s just asking for trouble.

Saying you “can’t compare” ability mechanics in the game is flat-out wrong, because that is exactly how class balance works. I understand your point of Damage != Healing, but in a way it does, due to the way classes are constructed and balanced. A medic will NEVER be 1:1 with an assault, simply because the damage dealer is supposed to have the upper hand, else it would be an endless grind-fest of healing, damage, healing, damage, healing, damage, healing… etc. You have to think how one merc’s actions interact with every merc on the field, not just themselves, and not just the enemy, and not just their own team - it has to be all of them - else you will never get “balance”.

UPDATE: I’m adding this to support my arguments.

(SteelMailbox) #75

[quote=“Faraleth;80205”][quote=“Jurmabones;80146”]Giving teammates a moderate chunk of hp compared to potentially killing and simultaneously gibbing multiple opponents in one cooldown… You literally can’t compare them.

How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale. It’d make more sense to compare it to other medic heals, which is what everyone else in the thread except you seems to understand.[/quote]

UPDATE: I’m adding this to support my arguments.

http://i.imgur.com/dpWmy5S.gif[/quote]
Crying for likes huh @Faraleth

(Grave_Knight) #76
  1. The last idea isn’t bad, in fact I had that same idea. Shouldn’t trigger as used till the revive animation is complete. Being immune to gib during the animation is way to powerful, also would probably be a pain to program.
  2. The charge bar gets replaced but you’ll still self-revive. Like others I’ve never had this problem.
  3. Never noticed it. Might be a bug.
  4. They need to be within the AoE. Never had a problem with it.
  5. That’s because the pulse is a disc, not a sphere. If you want to hit the guy above you, you should jump just before releasing.
  6. This is also probably a bug.
(Yes) #77

I’m not even going to mention the start of the post, because I think the whole “instant heal ready whenever you want” argument is complete rubbish.

The self-revive is the hardest ability to pull off in the game, has one of the longest cooldowns and is nowhere near being the most powerful ability. Yet it is also able to be completely cancelled by opposing players and put on cooldown. Fragger’s frags are far more powerful, yet they only get a tiny bit of cooldown when cancelled and they are cancelled by the player, not something out of their control. Skyhammer has the most powerful ability yet it isn’t able to be completely negated, it’s far easier to pull off, has multiple uses, doesn’t require much thought. I could go on and on about how there are far more powerful abilities that can’t get cancelled by enemies, have a lower cooldown and/or won’t go on full cooldown when cancelled by the using player.

Phoenix is the only merc with a self-revive being used as an excuse? That’s really idiotic as well. Fragger is the only one with frags, Nader is the only one with a grenade launcher, Skyhammer is the only one with an airstrike, etc.

I’ve mentioned this a lot before. If you manage to self-revive when surrounded by enemies, you shouldn’t be punished, they should be. Besides, if someone self-revives when surrounded they’ll likely be killed straight away again, serving as their punishment.

I’ve also said this a lot before and I’m beginning to get tired of repeating it, there are many more situations where you can get gibbed during the animation than just being “completely surrounded”. I’m not going to list them again, but in my experience I have only been gibbed during the animation in these situations. You even used as an example “if you […] get taken out by an explosive” of when you should use it which was one of the examples I listed as to when you can easily be gibbed during the animation.

When I say, and when Jurmabones says it, we mean that one ability is far more powerful than the other and thus shouldn’t be treated the same. He even said in his post “How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale.”

[quote=“Grave_Knight;80217”]
2. The charge bar gets replaced but you’ll still self-revive. Like others I’ve never had this problem.
4. They need to be within the AoE. Never had a problem with it.
5. That’s because the pulse is a disc, not a sphere. If you want to hit the guy above you, you should jump just before releasing.
[/list][/quote]
2. You’re right, I guess I accidentally released the self-revive and so it didn’t go off.
4. They are within range, I wouldn’t list it as an issue if they weren’t.
5. Yes, I understand why, but it is still an issue. Especially on maps like Trainyard and Bridge, which have many inclines. The side entrance to the drug room near the parking lot on Bridge is the worst offender of this.

(Szakalot) #78

I’m not even going to mention the start of the post, because I think the whole “instant heal ready whenever you want” argument is complete rubbish.[/quote]

whats so rubbish about it? it takes sth like 2 seconds to charge up 80hp heals. YOu know that Phoenix has a healing pulse right? not just self-revive?

If you could consistently keep charging up them heals, Phoenix would always have a 80hp heal ready for his fragger teammate.

That is pretty obvious to me, and its clearly obvious to the devs, since they punish you for holding pulse too long.

(Yes) #79

I’m not even going to mention the start of the post, because I think the whole “instant heal ready whenever you want” argument is complete rubbish.[/quote]

whats so rubbish about it? it takes sth like 2 seconds to charge up 80hp heals. YOu know that Phoenix has a healing pulse right? not just self-revive?

If you could consistently keep charging up them heals, Phoenix would always have a 80hp heal ready for his fragger teammate.

That is pretty obvious to me, and its clearly obvious to the devs, since they punish you for holding pulse too long.[/quote]

Sawbonez and Aura have better healing imo.

The healing pulse shouldn’t be cancelled or it shouldn’t go on full cooldown, preferably the 2nd option. It’s something that usually gets cancelled due to circumstances out of control of the player, typically through the fault of careless teammates.

And as I said, there are far more powerful abilities that don’t go on full cooldown when cancelled.

(Szakalot) #80

[quote=“Clown;80234”]

I’m not even going to mention the start of the post, because I think the whole “instant heal ready whenever you want” argument is complete rubbish.[/quote]

whats so rubbish about it? it takes sth like 2 seconds to charge up 80hp heals. YOu know that Phoenix has a healing pulse right? not just self-revive?

If you could consistently keep charging up them heals, Phoenix would always have a 80hp heal ready for his fragger teammate.

That is pretty obvious to me, and its clearly obvious to the devs, since they punish you for holding pulse too long.[/quote]

Sawbonez and Aura have better healing imo.

The healing pulse shouldn’t be cancelled or it shouldn’t go on full cooldown, preferably the 2nd option. It’s something that usually gets cancelled due to circumstances out of control of the player, typically through the fault of careless teammates.

And as I said, there are far more powerful abilities that don’t go on full cooldown when cancelled.[/quote]

I agree that it would be nice if some part of the cooldown went back to phoenix if the heal isn’t used (just like fragger gets 50% nade cooldown back). Full cooldown back is obviously too much.

As far as which heal is better, they all have their advantages. Aura can help you bunker a spot. Sawbonez has the most versatile heal. Phoenix heal is the strongest during fights, especially when pushing. Sparks has very poor heal, but amazing revives.

As far as other abilities: few of those abilities benefit from spamming them ‘ready’ at all times.

Fraggers used to be able to cook nades without cooldown punishment. So what every fragger would do, they’d cook nades at 3 seconds and peek - see an enemy - get a kill ; don’t see an enemy - cancel nade.

Similarly, Phoenix heal without punishment of bad timing would be annoying as hell. Friendlies are fighting - charge up heal: nobody gets low - cancel heal; somebody gets to 10hp - use up 80hp heal.

Can you come up with a ‘far more powerful’ ability that would also benefit from spamming it like that?