Phoenix Issues

[Faraleth]

The self-revive is the hardest ability to pull off in the game, has one of the longest cooldowns and is nowhere near being the most powerful ability. Yet it is also able to be completely cancelled by opposing players and put on cooldown. Fragger’s frags are far more powerful, yet they only get a tiny bit of cooldown when cancelled and they are cancelled by the player, not something out of their control.

So far I do completely agree with you. But the reason Phoenix’s self revive is a hard-to-pull-off ability with such a long cooldown is due to it’s power. When we talk about “power”, we aren’t simply talking damage, it’s about the abilities overall effect on the game and the players. A self-revive in a game which requires team-work and relying on your team-mates for aid, is pretty huge.

I’ve mentioned this a lot before. If you manage to self-revive when surrounded by enemies, you shouldn’t be punished, they should be. Besides, if someone self-revives when surrounded they’ll likely be killed straight away again, serving as their punishment.

With this, it’s completely HOW it works right now. If you can pull off a self-revive and complete the animation, you get the brief period of invulnerability. I’ve lost count the amount of times now I’ve self-revived because people forgot to gib me, then while their backs were turned I gunned them all down - and all the while they shot back, I took no damage. It’s great!

But this is the thing, you have to pull off the entire revive successfully. Phoenix has the same revive animation time as anyone else, so it acts exactly the same as being revived by another medic - so why should being gibbed while in the animation be so unfair? Once you have triggered the self-revive, the 60 second cooldown is in-place, it’s the same principle as using a defib. You use it on the player, you get the “revive” exp, but they can still be gibbed while in the animation. They are dead, you still got the “revive”. Perhaps it’s this mechanic that needs looking at and changing - as opposed to specifically Phoenix? Because that is where I see the problem stemming from.

When I say, and when Jurmabones says it, we mean that one ability is far more powerful than the other and thus shouldn’t be treated the same. He even said in his post “How much you can be rewarded compared to how much you can be punished is on a totally different scale.”

And finally, yes, I did understand what you both meant with that. Although I think my explanation on it before-hand is still relevant to the argument. ^.^

Hope this helps sum it up a little more clearly. :3

[JesseKomm]

[quote=“Clown;80234”]

[quote=“Clown;80227”][quote=“Faraleth;80205”]As for his self-revive cooldown being used even if he doesn’t revive fully (ie. when you get gibbed while you are in the self-revive animation), allow me to explain while this is completely fair: Phoenix is the ONLY merc in the game with a self-revive. This distinctively sets him apart from other mercs, as the general play style is “once you are down, you respawn or are helped by your team-mates”. This self-revive is incredibly powerful by itself and thus the long activation and cooldown ensure it is not abused by simply suicide charging and getting a second-wind whenever you feel like it. It is designed to be used strategically, like if you fall behind get taken out by an explosive but aren’t dead, you can bring yourself back and recover your team. You aren’t supposed to use the self-revive when you are completely surrounded, that’s just asking for trouble.

I’m not even going to mention the start of the post, because I think the whole “instant heal ready whenever you want” argument is complete rubbish.[/quote]

whats so rubbish about it? it takes sth like 2 seconds to charge up 80hp heals. YOu know that Phoenix has a healing pulse right? not just self-revive?

If you could consistently keep charging up them heals, Phoenix would always have a 80hp heal ready for his fragger teammate.

That is pretty obvious to me, and its clearly obvious to the devs, since they punish you for holding pulse too long.[/quote]

Sawbonez and Aura have better healing imo.

The healing pulse shouldn’t be cancelled or it shouldn’t go on full cooldown, preferably the 2nd option. It’s something that usually gets cancelled due to circumstances out of control of the player, typically through the fault of careless teammates.

And as I said, there are far more powerful abilities that don’t go on full cooldown when cancelled.[/quote]

As I said, it penalizes poor timing, that is the point of having a cooldown for cancelled abilities, that is the only thing I’ve been saying and it’s the most logical part of the feature. Whether or not it is through your own or your team’s fault there is no way the game can know that and as such they cannot remove the cooldown since it can be so blatantly abused in regular gameplay. That is where balance comes into play, what you and Jurma are asking for is to make Phoenix unbalanced entirely; there is no opinion there, remove that cooldown and you break that merc completely.

Self-revive is working fully as intended, if you die during the process you shouldn’t spawn with the possibility of instantly doing it again, you tried and failed, there is no compensation for misuse of an ability… let alone one that is used when downed. You need to understand when to use it, because 9 out of 10 times in combat you will be gibbed instantly to avoid resurrection, players that forget about you or have no access to your downed body are penalized because you can come back and make a major impact on the immediate battle… if you die instantly when you revive then you are using it poorly, but again there would be no difference between that and being revived by a medic, just because it’s special doesn’t mean it needs to be more powerful, it has the same advantages and disadvantages as being struck by a defib, minus the second player to help you.

[Szakalot]

[quote=“Faraleth;80241”] and all the while they shot back, I took no damage. It’s great!
[/quote]

this shouldn’t be possible!

Unconditional invulnerability only applies at spawn, where you get 2 seconds 100% and 2seconds 50% damage reduction.

When revived, and self-revived; your brief invulnerability should be canceled immediately upon firing any weapon, or using any ability.

[Yes]

[quote=“Clown;80227”]The self-revive is the hardest ability to pull off in the game, has one of the longest cooldowns and is nowhere near being the most powerful ability. Yet it is also able to be completely cancelled by opposing players and put on cooldown. Fragger’s frags are far more powerful, yet they only get a tiny bit of cooldown when cancelled and they are cancelled by the player, not something out of their control.

So far I do completely agree with you. But the reason Phoenix’s self revive is a hard-to-pull-off ability with such a long cooldown is due to it’s power. When we talk about “power”, we aren’t simply talking damage, it’s about the abilities overall effect on the game and the players. A self-revive in a game which requires team-work and relying on your team-mates for aid, is pretty huge.[/quote]

I don’t think it has as big of an impact as many other abilities, which I’ll list a few of.

[list]
[] A single frag from fragger can tip games and he gets 2 of them which can’t be forced onto a full cooldown by enemies. These game changing frags are also easier to pull off than an equally game changing self-revive, if the self-revive can at all be as game changing.
[] An airstrike can tip games even more than a frag, has more versatility and again, can’t be cancelled by opponents.
[] A heartbeat sensor can let you know where enemies are at a chokepoint, in most maps there only 2, meaning you’ll know how many enemies are at the other chokepoint. These can be cancelled by enemies, but have a much shorter cooldown and you get to choose where they are placed, unlike dying.
[] Kira’s orbital strike can wipe teams, has a shorter cooldown and it can only be prevented from moving, it’ll still remain there and hence could block C4 or a chokepoint or continue to damage the EV.
[/list][quote=“Faraleth;80241”]With this, it’s completely HOW it works right now. If you can pull off a self-revive and complete the animation, you get the brief period of invulnerability. I’ve lost count the amount of times now I’ve self-revived because people forgot to gib me, then while their backs were turned I gunned them all down - and all the while they shot back, I took no damage. It’s great!

But this is the thing, you have to pull off the entire revive successfully. Phoenix has the same revive animation time as anyone else, so it acts exactly the same as being revived by another medic - so why should being gibbed while in the animation be so unfair? Once you have triggered the self-revive, the 60 second cooldown is in-place, it’s the same principle as using a defib. You use it on the player, you get the “revive” exp, but they can still be gibbed while in the animation. They are dead, you still got the “revive”. Perhaps it’s this mechanic that needs looking at and changing - as opposed to specifically Phoenix? Because that is where I see the problem stemming from. :)[/quote]
You are punished, the animation serves as a reminder for them to gib you and then you are forced onto cooldown unlike if you had been gibbed on the floor, it’s happened very frequently to a friend of mine.

I’ve also said this frequently before, it’s not that getting gibbed during the animation is unfair, it’s unfair that it puts the self-revive on cooldown. Saying it acts the same as being revived by another player is irrelevant because they don’t have one minute cooldowns.

[FabiopxK]

This also seems to be an issue: With Bushwhacker (using KEK) the spare ammo goes up to 203 when next to ammo crates, but with Phoenix (also the KEK) it only goes up to 158 I believe.

[SteelMailbox]

This also seems to be an issue: With Bushwhacker (using KEK) the spare ammo goes up to 203 when next to ammo crates, but with Phoenix (also the KEK) it only goes up to 158 I believe.

I’m pretty sure Phoenix doesn’t get Spares.
Kek is 203 only with spares.

[Malkovich1]

[quote=“Clown;79672”]OK, another thing to note is that the healing pulse doesn’t work on the person using the EV turret, even if you jump on the EV and are right next to them. I don’t know whether other heals affect people on the EV or not though. I also haven’t tested it on regular MGs, so if anyone has any info on that, please let me know.

Healing pulse must ALWAYS be at the same level of the recipient… for example: if I am the healer and wish to heal my teammate. Teammate must either go down the crate, or I jump on the crate.[/quote]

Just wanted to clear up this unsupported statement:

Also I don’t remember for EV MG but I’m pretty sure I’ve healed my friend on a normal MG with the pulse before, same as with Sawbones meds.

[FabiopxK]

[quote=“pxK;80301”]This also seems to be an issue: With Bushwhacker (using KEK) the spare ammo goes up to 203 when next to ammo crates, but with Phoenix (also the KEK) it only goes up to 158 I believe.

I’m pretty sure Phoenix doesn’t get Spares.
Kek is 203 only with spares.[/quote]

oh sh*t i forgot about that lool, my bad

[KangaJoo]

And this is absolutely fine - why? Well, it takes over 10 seconds to charge up if you want a full revive from pretty much anything below 20hp. If Phoenix is THAT low already, just shoot him to finish him off. If he runs, he is in the same situation as Sawbonez. Because if Sawbonez drops a med pack, he will actually regenerate faster than Phoenix’s “instant health restore” if not under-fire. Just my opinion, of course

Umm I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m talking about the self revive where he gets killed and comes back to full HP, not his healing ability. Also, phoenix’s health regen does restore your health pretty much instantly or at least way faster than sawbonez’ packs especially if you’re self healing. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding your comment, though.

[Grave_Knight]

[quote=“Faraleth;80241”][quote=“Clown;80227”]I’ve mentioned this a lot before. If you manage to self-revive when surrounded by enemies, you shouldn’t be punished, they should be. Besides, if someone self-revives when surrounded they’ll likely be killed straight away again, serving as their punishment.[/quote]With this, it’s completely HOW it works right now. If you can pull off a self-revive and complete the animation, you get the brief period of invulnerability. I’ve lost count the amount of times now I’ve self-revived because people forgot to gib me, then while their backs were turned I gunned them all down - and all the while they shot back, I took no damage. It’s great![/quote]Had a time when a Skyhammer downed me and proceeded to teabag the full charge. I don’t think he was pleased by the bullets to the face and quick gib.

“MORE GIBBING! LESS TEABAGGING!”

I also had a time when an explosion downed me and throw me over a Bushwhacker. He started planting just as I finished my charge and, bullet to the head+gib. People really do need to remember to gib…

[Sinee]

So, after playing Phoenix exclusively for a while, here’s what I would like to make him more viable… 'cause right now, he just ain’t.

Cool-down removed entirely or drastically reduced for self-revive, but maybe trade off for 50% health on revive, so you have to get away and heal. If there’s a silly 1 minute cool down on someone just picking themselves up so they don’t have to wait 20 years for a medic or respawn, then martyrdom for Nader should also have a 1 minute cool down (if anything, this should be how it is anyway, but I digress). It seems like a double-standard. People are already deliberately going out of their way to gib me as Phoenix, just because they know he might pick himself up… even though he isn’t that threatening HP wise, and even though 8/10 times, I can’t revive myself right then anyway.

The self-revive is already situational. At least if you get 50% health only on revive, it would make Phoenix users have to seriously pick and choose when they used it to keep the move tactical. Weighing risk, etc.

That or have a “hold to revive” mechanic, that will give you health based upon how long you have the animation, just like defibs.

I’d also like a cool-down reduction for healing to make the heals on par with at least Sparks’ medpacks. In a perfect world, cool-down time would equal to charge up time, maybe slightly more. Right now if you hold it for just a few seconds, you’re slapped with a cool-down that’s just too long in the fast pace of DB. Or perhaps some mechanic like Phantom’s armor, where if you drain your nerdy nanites or whatever the fuck it is, then you have a cool-down. Longer you charge, more you deplete.

This has been an issue because there’s been a lot of times so far that I’ve been the team medic, and I’ve healed someone… and then someone else comes and has to stand next to me and wait for my cool down to finish so I can heal them too. It’s hilarious. Then they stand there in my face yelling “Medic!” and I can’t do a damn thing. So stupid. Especially if I just healed a Rhino or a Fragger… my other teammates are screwed for a while. I’m having to choose to be someone’s medic rather than my team’s medic.

As of right now, Phoenix can heal only a team camping in tiny places, or roughly one person at a time… IF they hold still long enough, or if they notice you chasing after them like a moron. Everyone else has to wait on your cool-down or simply die. Phoenix is currently lacking viability. I cannot justify using him over any of the other three medics besides the fact I like the way he looks and his guns are ok. Ultimately, as a medic, your team can’t rely on you to help them.