PC controls - Keyboard layout

(Jamieson) #161

Horse what are you on about? looks like your just clutching at straws here…
or Pathetic attempt at sarcasm is it?

(Senethro) #162

[QUOTE=Jamieson;215566]Horse what are you on about? looks like your just clutching at straws here…
or Pathetic attempt at sarcasm is it?[/QUOTE]

Hes suggesting that many FPS games manage fine without rebinding half the keyboard. He is perhaps implying that having 20 textchat binds as part of the standard controls is not something SD should be doing.

(Jamieson) #163

Perphaps I should get you to translate in future cases then…

Well if that is indeed what Horse is saying then He is right to an extent, games can function without having binds on the keyboard what I think signofzeta is trying to say is that we should not waste the keyboards potential as you have so many keys and more options etc.

If you limit the number of keys or try to have 1 key function for all jobs then you end up with a console control system which does not work for PC games. As Horse points out this is my opinion but many others will also agree with me.

Id like to call forward the evidence for my defence = Wolfenstein, need I say more…

(H0RSE) #164

Hes suggesting that many FPS games manage fine without rebinding half the keyboard. He is perhaps implying that having 20 textchat binds as part of the standard controls is not something SD should be doing.
This is what I mean. Just because the keyboard has lots of keys, doesn’t mean you have to use them all…Yeah, the one button for multiple options can be bad, but it can also work well, like in Borderlands.

(tokamak) #165

[QUOTE=signofzeta;215558]I’m talking about unimportant actions here. For the important actions like crouch, reload, use, throw grenade, it would be bound near WASD. One button vsays would be bound further away. The suicide button would be bound in that area too. And even further away, would be the quick class change. I mean, you can basically make an entire limbo menu on the right half of your keyboard. And I don’t even think you need the numpad, considering some laptops don’t have them.

One button for spawn here. One button to change to this class. One button to pick this mission. One button for changing teams.[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t the fact that the actions are unimportant nullify their need for a key bind?

(brbrbr) #166

why enforce any way ?
birng BOTH ways to play games !!
cuz it can make peacfully co-existing both kind of players.
and this mean [better]sales and better [consumers]response.

(Qhullu) #167

the thing is though, in a fast paced game like et, when playing against players with years of experience, where brink too will eventually end up hopefully. sometimes you need to do things under less than ideal circumstances, and it’s is possible that a context sensitive system, however well designed and implemented, isn’t always better than knowing exactly what happens when you press some button. and the reason for that is context sensitivity.

a context sensitive system needs rules on which it bases its decisions, and all is fine when the situation the context sensitive button is pressed in clearly falls within a certain rule, according to both the player and the computer. but the problems arise in situations where the button is pressed in a situation where it is not clear which rule is in effect, like near the “border” area between two rules, or even when two rules overlap.

(i don’t know much about the classroles in brink on purpose so apologies if this is a crappy example, but it should illustrate the point sufficiently) for example there might be a rule that says that if you press the button when near a teammate, you drop an ammopack, and a rule that says you zip towards a destroyable door if you point at or near it and press the button … it’s possible to imagine a situation where those two rules might overlap at the moment the button is pressed, but how does the computer know if the player pointed at that door on purpose or not?

so to build a context sensitive system which always does what the player wants, it needs to be done in a way that it is never possible for two rules to overlap, and to never have a border they share, which means that there must areas within the game where the context sensitive button does nothing.

(signofzeta) #168

So what if games don’t have quick chat, and limbo menus? Then those keys aren’t used. But this game has quick chat and limbo menu. Too late now, but for future games, I think that the entire limbo menu can be mapped to the right half of the keyboard, or left half if you are a lefty.

When I say unimportant keys, I mean keys that aren’t used often, not keys that aren’t used at all. If they weren’t even used ever, then it wouldn’t be mapped on a keyboard in the first place.

So if any of you are ETQW players, and end up using CFG files to bind an extra action to an unused key, like suicide, switch to this class, quick class selection, and you aren’t on my side, then you are hypocrites.

(Senethro) #169

You don’t get it, do you? I bound suicide to N because it was a good thumb button that I wasn’t likely to hit doing anything else.

If your suggested config bound suicide to anything except N it would have been useless for me and a waste of time.

Advanced configging is different from basic configging. Most people use Mouse 1 for fire and space for jump but theres a lot of disagreement on what to use for something like crouch. Theres no point trying to second guess what a good advanced config would be, so let players create their own instead.

Your textchat points are also 2005 thinking. Modern games have auto-chatter and voicechat.

(brbrbr) #170

[QUOTE=Senethro;215604]You don’t get it, do you? I bound suicide to N because it was a good thumb button that I wasn’t likely to hit doing anything else.

If your suggested config bound suicide to anything except N it would have been useless for me and a waste of time.

Advanced configging is different from basic configging. Most people use Mouse 1 for fire and space for jump but theres a lot of disagreement on what to use for something like crouch. Theres no point trying to second guess what a good advanced config would be, so let players create their own instead.

Your textchat points are also 2005 thinking. Modern games have auto-chatter and voicechat.[/QUOTE]
note: i have mouse iwth joystick inside[aside to be exact].

(DarkangelUK) #171

[QUOTE=signofzeta;215603]
So if any of you are ETQW players, and end up using CFG files to bind an extra action to an unused key, like suicide, switch to this class, quick class selection, and you aren’t on my side, then you are hypocrites.[/QUOTE]

It’s funny you say that, cos generally scripts are created within cfg’s to reduce the amount of key presses, and general amount keys needed to play the game. Add to that toggle and cycle commands as well, then your argument basically is that… “there are lots of keys on a keyboard therefore they should all be used”, which is just downright silly.

Oh and just because an option is there and is used, doesn’t mean that person counts it as a necessity. I can live without it, you obviously can’t.

(INF3RN0) #172

I abuse multi-purpose keys, especially on ma mousey :D.

(signofzeta) #173

Well at least have quick binds for spawning and changing classes, and all that limbo menu stuff. Instead of pressing L, and clicking on that icon, and then hitting deploy, or respawn, just simply press a button on the keyboard, and then you are medic.

You don’t need your hand at the WASD area, when you are lying there. It isn’t like you need to dodge any bullets.

BTW, I bind J or K as suicide, as in K for kill.

And the problem with advanced config is, it isn’t in the UI menu. I want to press one key to change to a medic. In ETQW, I would have to write a lot of scripts in the CFG file to do that. Not something a person who does not know any scripting would want to do, like myself.

Also, I didn’t say, that this key has to be this, that key has to be that. Your hand is near the WASD area, and then there can be squad communication, quick class change, and maybe a button to talk to one single guy. These things are of the least importance, so they end up on keys that are further away from your left hand.

Since your hand isn’t near the backspace, , enter, right shift, right control area, those keys can be used for suicide and quickly change to a certain class. Or suicide and change to certain weapon. Instead of pressing L, and going through so many clicks, one button that cannot be accidentally pressed, because your hand is no where near that area, can act as a button to quickly change your class.

My argument isn’t that every key should be used. My argument is to not limit the number of actions to 16 just because the PC version can easily fit into the console and vice versa, and also that advanced CFGs should be in the UI as well.

I’m telling you, the keys near the Enter key can be used as a miniature limbo menu, by pressing one button. And even if people don’t use it, then they don’t have to press those keys.

By the same logic that “G” throws your greande, why can’t “]” be suicide and respawn as medic for example?

Oh yeah, the options menu. There are many settings that I know of that could be bound to one key, like toggle crosshairs, toggle minimap, or whatever is on there. Instead of taking the time to press escape, go to options and do whatever, one can simply press a key. And the UI does not have an option to bind a key to “control opacity of crosshairs”.

So what I’m saying is, why go to so many different menus to do a simple task if there is a button that does nothing, and can be used? Why have a limbo menu? Is pressing one button to respawn as medic much faster than “L”, move mouse cursor, click on medic icon, click on weapon, click on deploy?

Which is faster? Moving your hand to press one button, or pressing multiple buttons? Especially when your character is already dead, and can’t do much?

But anyway, the real gripe here is, limiting the number of actions to 16, just because consoles have 16 buttons on the controller. My previous part is just telling that the keyboard has so many keys that there is potential to have up to 104 actions, and shortcut keys for anything. Just because a person does not use it, does not mean that it shoudn’t be implemented and making some poor sap who is a newbie at scripting to ask in the forums how to change to medic by a press of one key. It does not matter how many actions there are, just so that you aren’t limiting the number of actions on the PC version just so the console players get to play the exact same game.

And since none of you have played Wolfenstein as much as I did, you won’t know how it is like to have a PC game with console controls. In fact, that was probably why you hate that game. This is what I don’t want Brink’s PC control scheme to be. If there are 100 actions, use 100 keys. And since the movement actions aren’t that many, like 20 actions or so, 80 of them can be bound to other keys, and these 80 actions could be actions that could have required you to go to a different menu to utilize. I’m not saying every game should do that, I’m saying that it is a problem, because no game uses all the keys on the keyboard, when there is some action where you have to go one place, do this, do that, then go do that again, when one key can be easily pressed. And it takes creativity to figure out how to use those unreachable keys. It takes thinking outside the box. You can’t reach it, so what. Make them option menu keys, limbo menu keys etc.

Mind as well say FPS games are great on half a keyboard and mouse. Because no one uses more than 50 keys anyway.

(DarkangelUK) #174

[QUOTE=signofzeta;215653]
And the problem with advanced config is, it isn’t in the UI menu. I want to press one key to change to a medic. In ETQW, I would have to write a lot of scripts in the CFG file to do that. Not something a person who does not know any scripting would want to do, like myself.[/QUOTE]

You just rendered your whole argument moot with that sentence, thanks.

(signofzeta) #175

But if it was in the UI, I would use it. I don’t use it, because writing scripts is a hassle.

(jRAD) #176

[QUOTE=signofzeta;215653]
But anyway, the real gripe here is, limiting the number of actions to 16, just because consoles have 16 buttons on the controller.[/QUOTE]

It’s been stated in pretty clear terms that this is not the reason that we want to keep controls as simple as we can.

(Senethro) #177

SoZeta, you just spent 850 words talking about the idea that SD will somehow oppress you to just 16 buttons. We have no reason to think we will not have the luxury and flexibility of binding and scripting we did before as long as you accept that some things like grenades work differently and may not lend themselves so well to a scripting system set up for weaponbanks.

It would be nice if SD let us bind some of the more common advanced functions in the options menu, like Respawn as Medic or “Attack!” (the only textchat worth using). Nice, but not necessary. As for my megatexture quality adjusting key or my drawgun toggler, I’d rather set those up myself.

Edit: Ooops, don’t take 20 minute to write a post I guess.

(signofzeta) #178

nice to hear the reason, but just saying for example in a future game, will you ever use all 104 keys on the keyboard when the situation arises? Or will you cram multiple actions onto one key? Like what Wolfenstein did, where you throw medpacks when you are not near someone, and when you are near someone you revive that guy, and thus the player does not have complete control over if they really want to throw medpacks or revive someone. The problem there is, when I am facing a guy, and want to throw medpacks, I revive the guy, which shouldn’t matter, but if my cursor is not directly on the dead body, I throw medpack, and waste a charge.

This is what I want the developer to avoid when developing PC versions of any game. If there are just too many actions, which this game does not have, I think, don’t be afraid to use all the keys on the keyboard.

(DarkangelUK) #179

You’re choosing a rushed, under-manned project as your basis for your argument? oh jeez give me strength…

(H0RSE) #180

Even if Wolf mapped every action to a separate button, you wouldn’t need 104 keys. It’s like you’re going out of your way to think of things to map to the other buttons.