Panzerfausts, teamwork, and victory

(Steltek) #1

Continued from here

I felt as though the panzerfaust debate between pamper and myself in the above thread was getting hijacked and I also wanted to hear some more opinions.

The question is whether panzerfausts help the team to win or not. This is assuming that the teams are cooperating, communicating, and experienced with playing ET (no newbies). I say they special purpose weapons for weakening known roadblocks (Battery west bunker, Goldrush bank) and should not normally be carried. Pamper says that Panzerfausts justify themselves purely in their killing ability.

Essentially, the points presented so far (panzerfaust is abbreviated PF):

Pro:

  • PF’s can take down skilled players very easily with very little skill needed
  • PF’s are extremely good at killing groups of enemies
  • PF soldiers gain more from later soldier levels (mostly level 4 where they get a SMG) therefore they should be allowed to gain experience to become effective later on

Con:

  • PF soldiers provide no direct or indirect team benefits (medics healing, field ops ammo’ing, engineers winning, covops spotting/satcheling)
  • Enemies do not group together very much
  • The typical PF shot only kills 1 or 2 players which is not enough to justify switching and losing medic, field ops, or engineer abilities. Those 2 kills could just as easily been accomplished through a team on team SMG fight
  • Strong enemy defenses such as MG42’s can just as easily be broken using rifle grenades from the engineers and teamwork
  • Frontlines battles (your typical SMG fight) are too spread out for a PF to turn the tide significantly
  • Skilled players can be dealt with using teamwork, strategy, and tactics

So, thoughts anyone?

(Pamper) #2

I voted for 2 (occasionally necessary). But I almost voted for 4: I believe that often, both the PF and the fieldop’s support-fires are used to get frags which don’t contribute to victory.

That is, the people who bunch up for a PF or who wander into an arty barrage are dumb newbies and killing them doesn’t help your team very much (they couldn’t find the objective anyhow). In contrast, the frags scored by an SMGer (or MGer) near the objective are almost certainly killing players who actually matter.

For example, I often see allies on Goldrush attacking the axis courtyard with PF or arty. They score points, but they’re not killing the people inside the vault, who really matter. Similarly, an Axis fieldop on Oases can kill many allies in their own courtyard- but the smart ones will slip by and plant TNT on the guns!

Stelek’s writeup omits the fact that I say Panzers (and most all soldier weapons) are only useful on overcrowed servers. If you play on less than 8v8, you almost never need a panzer.

(Steltek) #3

Okay, well, now I’m confused. It seems like that was a surrender almost.

Anyway, so what do you see the role of the PF as then? A minute ago you said it should kept handy at all times but now it seems like a prospective PF soldier should hold off until he sees a constant bottleneck.

And sorry for omitting the size of the server. I typically think of scenarios on servers involving 32 or so players. I don’t tend to think of it as overcrowded. There always seems to be plenty of oppurtunity for individuals and small groups to excel. I find it’s just right. Anyway, I suppose on smaller servers, the rules do change a bit. There does seem to be set percentages to devote to each class and some lesser classes do get left out for low numbers.

(Pamper) #4

No, you misinterpreted me if you think I said everyone needs a PF all the time. (That’s why I earlier claimed you had “No point”)

All I said is that in terms of uselessness, a PF is nowhere near as bad as a sniper. A panzersoldier you can at least count on to obliterate one single enemy with his shot, which is better than many snipers.

It’s also better than an infiltrator (those Coverts who steal pants). The amount of time a covert spends getting a disguise and then sneaking behind enemy positions is about as wasteful as waiting for a panzer to recharge. In either case, a good player could do more damage going rambo with an SMG.

Both Soldier and Covert should only be used in occasional situations, when there is a specific obstacle they need to overcome. If you don’t have a specific reason to be a soldier or covert, then you should go med/eng/FO.

However- the PanzerFaust as compared to other soldier weapons: the PF is the most general-purpose soldier gun. If you have a soldier, and there is no specific need for him to use a mortar, mobile MG, or flamethrower, then by default he should carry a panzer. For each job best accomplished by flamer, MG42, or mortar, a panzer-faust can come close to carrying them out. (It can hit around corners at close range like a flamer, it can hold off waves like an MG, and it can kill groups from long range like a mortar)

(weasel) #5

What I’ve found to be useful is having two soldiers, one carrying a panzer and another carrying something like a flamethrower. One fires a panzer shot, trades guns with the flamer, then the other soldier can fire off a shot. You get a lot more shots out that way, and the soldier can do something while his power bar recharges. If you don’t have two soldiers to spare, or you’re too disorganized to do that ‘teamwork’ thing, he can just find a SMG to use while his panzer recharges. Once a soldier reaches level 4, of course, it’s no longer an issue.

(Steltek) #6

I disagree completely.

If a soldier can’t completely fill a specific role then he shouldn’t be a soldier. Just because a PF is the closest to a general purpose soldier weapon doesn’t make it the right choice. He shouldn’t carry the panzerfaust around because he wants to kill or a target “might” pop up. He definitely shouldn’t carry it just because he can’t use the mortar or MG42 effectively.

Also, an infiltrated CovOps is an invaluable weapon that provides a direct benefit to teammates. Here’s just a short list:

  1. satchel objectives - mostly MG’s guarding the primary objective but for the non-disguised CovOps, there’s also ramps and footbridges
  2. no CP’s
  3. no mortars
  4. no mines
  5. teamdoors
  6. no mobile MG42’s around the objective
  7. intervene at key moments
  8. provide intelligence to friendly mortars / assault team
  9. eliminate key defenders
  10. occasional smoke to cover engineers

It seems to be the list for PF’s is:

  1. kills skilled players
  2. occasionally kills occasional groups of people

It seems to me that an infiltrated CovOps can make or break a game and I can’t think of a single map where they can’t be used effectively to directly aid in victory. A PF can not claim that.

No, you misinterpreted me if you think I said everyone needs a PF all the time. (That’s why I earlier claimed you had “No point”)

You mentioned some “special cases” where you need a panzerfaust. Well guess what? If you wait to switch to panzer until you run into the situation, then it’s too late. If a Nazi mobileMG is blocking the way, your team would like to be able to panzer him immediately, rather than waiting to respawn with the rocket launcher.

How did I misinterpret this?

(Pamper) #7

Wrong, unless you’ve got a specific objective to hit, infiltrating as a Covert is a waste of time. Primarily because it takes SO LONG to sneak in. The disguise is so trivially easy to penetrate, the only way you can really sneak in is to have an opening so big that a Rambo Medic could slip through it. (And when it comes to raising havoc, nobody beats Rambo)

  1. satchel objectives - mostly MG’s guarding the primary objective but for the non-disguised CovOps, there’s also ramps and footbridges
  2. no mines
  3. teamdoors

Those are all map-specific situations. They aren’t general cases where a class is useful.

  1. no CP’s

For about 6 seconds until they build another one. And it took you what, 25 seconds to walk over there, after spending time finding a disguise. An SMG soldier at the objective would be more useful. (Note that the kinds of CPs which control a spawn point are a separate affair. Those are very important, but I consider that a map-specific objective)

  1. no mortars

Again, only until he respawns. Which isn’t very long. In fact, many mortar soldiers are considering killing themselves anyway, to refill their ammo. Murdering him is hardly a bother. Killing a player is more valuable the longer he took reaching his current position from his spawn. Thus, Allies near the objective are the most important targets. Since mortar soldiers are often just 5 meters away from their spawn, they’re one of the least valuable things to kill. (Besides, your average mortar guy is inaccurate and wasting his own ammo anyhow)

  1. provide intelligence to friendly mortars / assault team

Because the Covert vision power is so strong, you can usually see targets through walls, and provide intel without being in disguise. AND, if you’re in disguise, then your icon on the map looks exactly like any other enemy- so those friendly mortars may lob a shell at you! (I consider this a design oversight. Players shouldn’t have to spam or join fireteams just to prevent themselves from showing on the map as a target)

  1. no mobile MG42’s around the objective
  2. intervene at key moments
  3. eliminate key defenders
  4. occasional smoke to cover engineers

All of these are wishful thinking. “elimiate mobile MG” and “intervene at key moments” are things a panzerfaust can do, too. For example, I just panzered 3 engineers who were defusing our TNT, and we won the game. If I had any other weapon, they could’ve killed me- or at least a medic could’ve revived some of them.

As a rambo medic, nothing makes me happier than finding a group of 3-4 enemy Coverts. They are the easiest possible prey. Of course I feel a little guilty demolishing such an idiotic team.

Now, I wish infiltration wasn’t this useless. I wish there was some point to sneaking around and being nasty, like there was in TeamFortress. But as its set up, the disguise power is too weak to be useful (except for team doors). You are both too easy for enemies to detect (out of combat) and too hard for teammates to recognize (in combat, leading to TKs).

I’ve seen a lot of Covert Ops who THINK their infiltration mission helped with a victory. But only the stupidest enemy teams will be fooled- and a team that bad was going to lose anyway.

All in all, if there’s an mediorce player on my team thinking about becomeing a Soldier or a Covert, I would prefer he plays Panzer soldier. At least then he’ll average out to neutralizing one or two enemies per spawn. The typical Covert player can’t even manage that.

(Pirate_X) #8

I believe that PFs are occasionally helpful for clearing out a killing zone that the enemy has set up.

However, in this case, what I would suggest is for possibly 1 player to SWITCH to soldier temporarily just as a means to an end.

I do not believe that there should always be a soldier on a team carrying a PF.

The PF has a bad rep, just because it does tend to be a favourite weapon of newer players. That being said, a PF in the hands of a skilled player can be very effective. I really don’t think that there’s a clear answer to the question… What’s worth more; an engineer/medic/fdop or somebody who can consistently stop 2-3 enemies from reaching an objective every spawn?

(Jahuu) #9

Well you are all forgetting something: Defense!

I played as an axis covert operative with a K43, the map was Railgun. I was running towards the gun which gun controls had been blown up by the allies, I first checked the mines, the allies had left a few, I reported them. Then I thought that I would run to the allied spawn to get an uniform from an allied soldier. I was passing by the side, when suddendly out of nowhere (= from the top of the gun) came this allied soldier with a panzerfaust killed me and therefore saved:

-His team command post, I would have blown it up.
-The trackswitch MG nest, I would have blown it up.
-The mines at the track switch, I would have checked them.
-The depot yard spawn, I would have gone there and captured it 3 secs before we spawn.

So he prevented me from basically winning the map for us (axis)

Also at fueldump: An axis soldier with PF is highle efficient as he can blow the tank from the fortresses windows, field op has to get close to throw his granade.

And I have been with a group of 1 medic, 1 engy and 1 covop (me), who were running to the last gun on oasis and got blown up by 1 PF soldier from accros the hall (near their spawn).

And besides on max lives server, every enemy killed is a map-lasting victory.

So every class is valuable, as every kill is valuable.

(Pirate_X) #10

…And every sperm is sacred…

I agree, the PF does have its’ defensive merits as well… Possibly even moreso on defense, given its’ user’s limited mobility.

(k1ll3r) #11

PF shouldn’t be ready to fire earlier as your heavy weap skill increases. It’s already too powerful to use, why make it even easier.

(Steltek) #12

Pamper,

Just like I’m not a very good PF soldier, I don’t think you’ve played CovOps enough to know just what their capabilities are. It is quite easy, and happens often, for a CovOps to accomplish all of those goals, on every map and the disguise is not as flimsy as it looks if you use it properly. It’s a matter of knowing the tactics and strategies.

As for your points, if by “map specific” you mean “every single map but one” then fine. And mines are never “map specific”. Every map has spots that are favorites for engineers to place mines. Satchel targets are map specific but show me a map where there’s no emplaced MG42’s.

Btw, teamdoor maps:
Oasis
Battery
Radar
Fueldepot

Non-teamdoor maps:
Goldrush
Railgun

And you can consider being able to rush the gold a replacement there or being able to tag the Depot Yard (usually while getting spawn camped into oblivion) another replacement. I have seen CovOps and an engineer single handedly win all of these maps using the teamdoor (yes, even Radar, which I thought was fun as hell).

And command posts are not instantly resurrected. How quickly it is rebuilt mostly depends on location. On Goldrush, it could be fixed by the next spawn. On Oasis, sometimes it is never fixed. But it should be kept down as long as possible. It could even mean the difference between victory and killing that engineer as he waits for his bar to recharge to plant the TNT.

Concerning mortars, that’s typical Panzerfaust thinking. “If I can’t see him and blast him, he’s not that important.” A good mortar soldier can wipe out half the entire team. He has incredible killing potential and no one on your team can get to him because he can hide on the entire other side of the map. A CovOps can get him though and quite easily. Yes, he’ll respawn, just like all the people you PF. Kill him enough though and he either may give up or come looking for you (usually with a pistol). Either way, you’ve done your job taking that capability away from the enemy.

Another thing, you missed another one of my points. That is, the sten is nearly as capable as a thompson or MP40 and in the right hands, could potentially be more effective. Have you seen some good players aim? Maybe PF dulls your skills but a good player using the sten can headshot-kill even a berserker medic easily. That makes him near equivalent to your standard infantry when attacking normally. A PF is just plain useless between shots and in a large fight, could even be hazardous.

The fact that mobile MG’s can be taken out equally well by both a covops and PF raises the question: if they can both do it, who do we need more, covops or a PF? Looking at the range and power of the CovOps, I’d say PF loses.

Also, intervening at key moments is something that simply is not possible with a panzerfaust against a good team because it simply doesn’t have that much killing power and he doesn’t have the survivability or the capability of a covops. In defending the dynamite, a panzerfaust soldier is just another target. Even better, he’s another target that can only fire once. It is very easy for that PF to get swarmed and overwhelmed. A spy can stay hidden until the engineer comes and then act decisively.

In fact, in the typical “defend the TNT” situation, if you were an engineer, you could have alternately rifle grenaded those engineers, still had a weapon to fire (instantly too, no need to switch), and if they had succeeded in disarming, having another engineer meant there are now 2 packs of dynamite planted. No, the PF was the worst choice in that situation.

I would hope that if a newbie had a choice, he would choose neither since it is much easier to give out ammo or health than it is to not TK your team like I see most PF soldiers do or run around in disguise but still act like an enemy and shoot at the first real enemy like most inexperienced CovOps do.

So you see now, a CovOps is not “map specific” nor is the class special purpose enough to hold off switching until needed. There are always targets, some more vital than others, that need to be taken out.

A PF just kills and doesn’t even do it well. Slow, low ammo, low firing rate, and possessing it provides no other bonus to your team. Killing more than 1 person is no great feat and can be done easily if you’re attacking as a team.

One last thing, tell me again how I misinterpreted those quotes.

(skinner) #13

panzers are anti tank weapons and should probably only be used on maps with tanks

(Steltek) #14

The funny thing is they suck at taking out tanks. You use up all your ammo and it takes too much time.

A single airstrike from a field ops instantly disables a tank and can be done in seconds.

(ZeAvIs) #15

I disagree. Panzers definitely have their uses both offensively and defensively. All the soldiers weapons are for special purpose, Flamthrower is for mass killing in close quarters, MG42 is for holding a point on the map, mortar is for long range artlierry.

Panzers are good for taking out large concentrations of troops both offensively and defensively. Maps such as fueldump an axis panzer can nail engis who are trying to repair the bridge, they can also be used to nail incoming troops from the tunnel. likewise later on allied panzers are useful for killing those annoying axis shooting from the windows. In goldrush the panzer can be used to protect the tank by shooting down the alley as the allies try to come and steal the tank. Likewise the panzer is extremely effectively in clearing the gold room. There are situations like these in every map. A skilled PF user can kill at least 2 people with each shot in these critical locations.

(SCDS_reyalP) #16

Did either of you ever play RTCW ? If you have, I can’t imagine why you are asking this question. The PF in ET has it’s power reduced a bit, but it still fills the same role, and can be very effective in it.
The PF is a crucial weapon, and can very often make the difference between winning and losing. If you think a PF takes little or no skill, you have not seen a good PF. If it didn’t take skill, you wouldn’t be able to say Lynch]narf[ is a great panzer and someone else was not. To kill one person with a PF doesn’t take much skill. To kill a bunch of people, and live long enought be in the right position to do it does.
To say that the PF is only useful large servers is also a mistake. Pro teams have been known to use 2 PFs in 6v6 RTCW.
PF excel at spawn camping. If you eliminate 3 players right after they spawn, you have that team at a disadvantage for the next 30 seconds at least. Much more so on a smaller server than a large one. The PF is also excellent for protecting objectives. If you kill and gib the enemy engineers in one shot, they have to wait a full spawn before they can try again. At the same time, it can be very effective against fixed defenses as well.
A PF who is recharging is not useless. A skilled soldier can kill a couple more people with grenades, or at least hold them off. Once they have lvl4 heavy weapons or light weapons, they also have decent gun power. I often switch to PF after I have made lvl4 light weapons in another class.

(Zephyr.Lang) #17

Well, you’re basically saying that fragging the other team doesnt help you. That, and Air Support and Panzerfaust are very useful and neccessary at choke points and objectives. Have you ever played the game???

(Steltek) #18

Yes, I have played both frigging games. I’m not saying ban the weapon. I’m saying leave it where it belongs. Hitting the Battery bunker, clearing the bank, and other known hard to break locations that you can anticipate.

Anywhere else and you’re just wasting ammo. I don’t see the advantage in killing 1 or 2 people immediately and being much less effective until a recharge. Being “pretty good” with an SMG and able to provide some benefit to teammates at the same time seems much more helpful. If you want an instant kill weapon to take out 1 or 2 people immediately, use a rifle grenade. Then you still have some kind of real gun afterwards (with grenades, since you think they’re so wonderful) and you can do engineer stuff.

(Pamper) #19

Um… I’ve played against you. A lot. I’m on Needlefeast very often! (Usually a rambo, except on battery)

I’m not saying that fragging enemies is worthless- but some frags are more important than others.

Someone near the objective is more important to kill than someone near his spawn. Fragging good players is more important than killing newbies.

Look at the fieldops in particular: his super-attacks give a big warning so that good players avoid the blast. The people who die from it are 50%+ newbies who wouldn’t pose much threat to the objective anyhow. These attacks may still help the team by forcing skilled enemies to waste time by avoiding the explosions, but that benefit doesn’t translate into frags.

A high-fragging field-ops can be actually harmful if his team is on offense. Many times I’ve sat with a med/eng/cov squad outside the wall to the fueldump and waited for the arty to end so that we can get inside. But our Lev3 fieldop back at the sniper hill just keeps piling it on. Sure, he frags 2-3 Axis each time… but my squad could’ve killed/avoided them anyway. Meanwhile, he’s given the rest of the defending team enough time to respawn.

The panzer isn’t nearly as bad in this regard. When a panzer scores a 3+ kill blast, chances are he was hitting dumb newbies who huddled together to trade packs. Someone good with an SMG can also often headshot a soldier before the panzer goes off. But a surprise rocket can sometimes destroy even the best player.

(Pamper) #20

You don’t understand, huh? For the offensive team, the ability to kill a larger number of enemies is what enables your victory. The rule of thumb on RTCW’s mp_beach was that Allies must kill each Axis twice to make a successful run.

<u>On a normal ET map (where Allies must TNT some objective near Axis spawn) here’s how gameplay goes:</u>
On each spawn, Allies run towards Axis and try to kill them. They get 30-60 attempts in a typical game. On any attempt, if they can kill (or chase off) all of the Axis near the objective, and still have a guy left to plant, they’ve won (or made an irrevocable step towards victory).

For victory, Axis must survive every single attempt, for the whole 30 minutes. Allies only have to win on one of the attempts, and the game ends early.

If an Allied Panzer makes just one good shot that kills 3+ people, that can often lead to a complete victory for his team.

And I don’t see the advantage of killing one person after a long infiltration delay and then having to go hide again or you’ll be discovered.

Look at it this way- which is the better team? A group with 4 stens and 1 of every other class? Or 4 panzers (and one of every other)?

(Obviously both are bad choices. If you’re gonna have 4 of one class, they should be medics!)