Number of mercs in a match.

(PixelTwitch) #41

[QUOTE=Mustang;497900]I think it would be interesting to see how some different systems work, for example each player has only one merc picked in tandem with the other team DotA style. It might be that this doesn’t work for stopwatch, but it might work for a new gamemode. I also like that it’ll mean different line-up almost everytime, and tactical picking to prevent your enemy having their prefered picks. It’s an interesting shake-up that could be fun to watch.

Three mercs on a team of five means upto fifteen different mercs on a team and a possible two hundred and forty three different merc combinations during a match, if one of these won’t work in a given situation then either you’re not working very well as a team during the game, by not communicating efficiently, or before the game, by not making sure you had a good enough selection to cover several different eventualities. But because you could be screwed over by not having good teamwork, I would prefer if this wasn’t enforced in random public games.

All mercs is a good option on hotswap server where players don’t necessarily know each other, work as a super efficient trained team or are expected to stay for the duration of the game, that is, on traditional public server browser servers.[/QUOTE]

OMG MUSTANG!
Why are you so much smarter when it comes to wording things than me :frowning:

Totally agree with your comments on random public play leaving mercs unlocked.

and I want to kiss you as your the only other person to use the word ‘watch’ in this thread :smiley:

(BrightIs) #42

Maybe the only way is to test this out, with different servers allowing different numbers of mercs :wink:

(Rex) #43

I voted for 5 and more mercs, because 3 mercs are very limiting and it is annoying for me to disconnect to adapt. I want freedom.
For me it makes sense being able to choose at least 1 merc per class.

[HR][/HR]

This time without quoting due to the massive amount of text and replies:

This moba system for Xt doesn’t work. Why? Simply because we got a shooter here and not a moba. Who wants to spend an eternity before the match start in a fast paced game only to play a few mins? What happens when the objective classes are banned? This could earsily ruin the map balance and lead to double fullholds.
Furthermore you can’t adapt tactics during the game.

Comp play is the best indicator for the best possible setup, because always only the most effective mercs for each stage will get picked. SD can’t really achieve that all mercs will get played in comp.
Also comp players don’t play for the joy of the viewers, they play to win. So if you would pick a ‘funnier’ lineup just for the viewers, you would simply lose.

(titan) #44

I get what some people are trying to argue but I reallyyy dont think this game would gain anything from a one merc system in competitive play. Yes it works for mobas but it doesn’t make any sense for extraction.
First of all a big part of the fun is switching mercs, 3 is a little low but but atleast you have 3 varying play styles during a match. 20 mins of one class would just get boring because they don’t have diverse move sets like in mobas just a gun and an ability, often on a long cooldown.
In addition like ashog said it stops interesting on the fly strats like 5 snipers or 5 field ops airstrike spam, and what happens to the engi when he is no longer needed on a map, he loses alot of his strength
Plus the entire metagame of banning and picking characters although interesting on paper just seems stupid in extraction, like i said before characters just aren’t unique and interesting enough to warrant a long ban, pick and counterpick process it’s not going to create interesting pick and counterpick scenarios it’s just gonna be people playing what they wanna play and banning characters someone else might want to play. If i pick fragger what exactly are you gonna chose to counterpick me in an interesting way? that’s just not how the game works characters don’t counter eachother.

my 2 cents anyway

(Rex) #45

3x high medics :tongue:

Good post by the way! :wink: Also my opinion.

(PixelTwitch) #46

I honestly feel people are tunnel visioning on how the game is TODAY when coming up with their replies.

I will admit that my posts are created based on a LOT of assumptions and expectations. Very little in fact is based on what we are currently playing…

Some of my assumptions are as follows…
1, Detailed weapon selection and weapon customisation giving people the ability to play with a weapon they likely will enjoy and removing the current issue picking a Merc based on his/her primary weapon and not his/her ability, movement and specialisation.
2, Greater variation in movement speeds and movement ability (limiting routes to heavier players for instance)
3, Greater effectiveness in abilities… Likely my biggest assumption but I do expect more abilities and more effective abilities at some point.
4, General OVERALL role requirement… 2 Medics, 2 Field and 1 Specialist.
5, Map rebalancing to make it more so Attackers are EXPECTED to finish most of the time.
6, More Mercs,
7, Solid league/skill based matchmaking,

While I can completely understand why the “hardcore competitive” guys would enjoy the ability to switch things up…
I do not believe (enough to stake my worthless reputation on it) the vast majority of your “play for fun” guys will.

(tokamak) #47

Constantly picking the perfect rock to the opponent’s scissor’s isn’t strategy. Finding a way to use your paper to beat the opponent’s scissors, that’s strategy.

(Glottis-3D) #48

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;497901]I really do like you fella from what I have seen and when we have played so please do not take what I am about to say as a personal attack…

In public I totally agree in opening up the Merc selection to everything… so totally no issues there…

But please understand just because YOU can do “MORE” with more Mercs does not mean its good for gameplay, balance or most importantly FUN.
Sure Starcraft players are out there right now wishing they could play as Zerg but also build Zealots…
CS Players out there that are on CT but wish they could buy an AK47…
Street Fighter players that are playing Honda but want Kens fireball…

and YES these are not EXTRACTION or a “SD GAME” but they are successful!

In matchmaking you would build a team based on what is put in front of you and stick to your roles or try “special tactics”.
Just because a certain Merc does not allow you to play “optimal” at points is irrelevant.
Its a TEAM game after all.

If its an objective you cannot do because of your current merc… ASSIST the merc that can…[/QUOTE]

for your model. i think mercs are too narrow in playstyle. some of them are close range only, some of them are long-range, and some of them are too fat! =) you cannot play Proxy in open areas vs Kira etc.

and we need to separate 2 points here:

  1. merc restrictions (though SD stated, that they do not like it) against over-abusing over-powered mercs. OR/AND team-cooldown stuff for abilities (30 secs cooldown for single mercs, 45 seconds each for 2 mercs etc). Like only one Fragger/Concker per team. i would like this to be an option vote in the lobby.

  2. merc selection in a match/round. we are mostly talking about competition-side.
    i suggest to try a system with cooldown for additional merc-using.
    You can play 5 mercs. with 3 unrescticted. and 2 additional mercs with cooldown - like 2 minutes after you picked him.

(tokamak) #49
  1. merc restrictions (though SD stated, that they do not like it) against over-abusing over-powered mercs. OR/AND team-cooldown stuff for abilities (30 secs cooldown for single mercs, 45 seconds each for 2 mercs etc). Like only one Fragger/Concker per team. i would like this to be an option vote in the lobby.

I’m not a fan of this. Two reasons:

  • A team where all players pick the same merc is fun and wacky.
  • Adding such a constraint is basically admitting as a designer that the merc itself is imbalanced. It’s not the team-wide problem, it’s the merc itself.
(PixelTwitch) #50

[QUOTE=tokamak;497912]I’m not a fan of this. Two reasons:

  • A team where all players pick the same merc is fun and wacky.
  • Adding such a constraint is basically admitting as a designer that the merc itself is imbalanced. It’s not the team-wide problem, it’s the merc itself.[/QUOTE]

Thats not it at all…

The issue with allowing you to pick all mercs is you can pick arty and strike, kill pick kira and orbital laser, self kill pick skyhammer and airstrike, self kill take fragger and frag nade.

People really need to move away from the idea of “BALANCE” its a null issue that people over simplify.

(tokamak) #51

Ah I misread that. Yeah grouping the cooldowns like that is a sensible idea.

(INF3RN0) #52

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;497913]Thats not it at all…

The issue with allowing you to pick all mercs is you can pick arty and strike, kill pick kira and orbital laser, self kill pick skyhammer and airstrike, self kill take fragger and frag nade.

People really need to move away from the idea of “BALANCE” its a null issue that people over simplify.[/QUOTE]

Ability cooldowns currently transfer between merc switching.

(INF3RN0) #53

5 for public, 1-2 for ranked. With agnostic objs I rarely find myself needing to change mercs during a pug/gather. With 2 objs most times, having access to two mercs per round seems reasonable enough. In a public game it makes sense to have more. I still feel like the merc concpet needs a lot more development to become an interesting part of the meta game, as well as more unique roles and counter ability play. When that happens I don’t see an issue with punishing poorly thought out strategies in the same manner as a game like LoL for ranked matches.

(titan) #54

yea pixel some of your assumptions are unrealistic do you really think there’s going to be a big ability overhaul anywhere near the point of making characters worthy of picks and bans and interesting enough to play exclusively for a full round ala LoL/Dota. This game will launch in a very similar state to how it is now (it’s been shown at game expos almost a year ago and has barely changed). Proxy will be throwing mines and sawbonez will still be healing and reviving. The idea of having to play proxy for 20 minutes through an entire round is painful to think about, sucks to be you if you get stuck in a long range choke point.

It’s not fair to say people are tunnel visioning their ideas we are being realistic instead of having hypothetical conversations about a game which is never going to exist.
In its current state (as you’ve agreed, given the list of changes you’ve written) 1 merc per player and picks/bans just dont make sense.

Not a personal attack btw :smiley: we’re just talking here right

(BomBaKlaK) #55

Obj design is weak
classes are useless
secondary obj are useless

So who care ?

Just be able to change between round to adapt a team for defense or attack can be a nice addition.
But really I’m near totally bored of this game already … I really dislike your maps and objective design.

(Glottis-3D) #56

this could be an interesting thing to test though.

Making Defence play mostly defensive mercs. And attackers mostly attacking mercs. But this could work only if the map itself is very well thought in terms of defence/attack play and counter play.

(PixelTwitch) #57

[QUOTE=titan;497917]yea pixel some of your assumptions are unrealistic do you really think there’s going to be a big ability overhaul anywhere near the point of making characters worthy of picks and bans and interesting enough to play exclusively for a full round ala LoL/Dota. This game will launch in a very similar state to how it is now (it’s been shown at game expos almost a year ago and has barely changed). Proxy will be throwing mines and sawbonez will still be healing and reviving. The idea of having to play proxy for 20 minutes through an entire round is painful to think about, sucks to be you if you get stuck in a long range choke point.

It’s not fair to say people are tunnel visioning their ideas we are being realistic instead of having hypothetical conversations about a game which is never going to exist.
In its current state (as you’ve agreed, given the list of changes you’ve written) 1 merc per player and picks/bans just dont make sense.

Not a personal attack btw :smiley: we’re just talking here right[/QUOTE]

Your right Titan… I agree that they feel unrealistic also… My problem is I also believe that failing to do so will be the downfall of the game both competitively and financially.

half off topic but right now Extraction is a game with great concepts but shallow commitment.

In its current state it is a mish mash of successful great concepts that have not been realised due to what I believe is fear.
That fear that the 15-20 of us that post here in the forums will rage quit the game… at the same time they also know that if all goes well we will be less then 0.001% of the playerbase. Every game needs its catch… Right now its like… ET with a sprinkle of CoD and a Dash of Battlefield, Served with a side of Dota and smothered in a BRINK flavoured sauce. However due to the fact that it lacks decent Extraction seasoning… It leaves a very bland taste in my mouth.

Not a dig at the game at all… I actually really enjoy the game and have high hopes for the game… I just cannot see it reaching that peak it deserves without more commitment and risk in each area.

(titan) #58

[QUOTE=BomBaKlaK;497918]Obj design is weak
classes are useless
secondary obj are useless

So who care ? [/QUOTE]

this is a fair point :smiley:

(Rex) #59

Extraction is what BRINK should have been. That’s how I would describe this game.

(BomBaKlaK) #60

Meh …