Number of mercs in a match.

(Kl3ppy) #21

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497851]in Sewer, i used all five classes. changing them if needed.

  1. stage fops/engie/medic
  2. medic/soldier/engie
  3. covert/medic/engie

plus. is there any flaw/defect if a player can choose between, lets say, 5 mercs in a round?

i mean can somebody explain “Oh, c’mon Glottis. dont be silly - if you have 5 mercs selection in a round this makes it much worse, regarding …list of flaws” ?

because i can say this about 3-mercs selection.[/QUOTE]

Imo you just gave the perfect example why 3 mercs isnt bad :wink:
You would always choose Medic and Engineer. And now you have to decide if you take covi or soldier as the 3rd merc. As a team you have to build a team loadout to cover possible tactics.

You are right, there is no real flaw but since in xt every class can do objectives, it is kind of silly to have a limit at all. If I’m right, SD wanted the 3 merc limit to add a tactical layer, but also they introduced classless objectives which does actually contradict the additional tactical layer. I always understood the 3 merc limit as an option, which can make or break your game if you didnt carefully consider your choice. But with classless objectives, an objective guy is not needed that bad because everyone can do objectives.

I would rather keep the limit and go back to classbased objectives than removing limit and keep classless objective.

(tokamak) #22

I’ve warmed up to the non-absolute team roles. I do think that that the specialists should be more pronounced and the big difference still can be bigger, but at least this is going to avoid nasty complications later down the line.

That said. I still want to see bigger teams. Five player teams aren’t too much to ask for competitive settings. WoW has been using 5v5 ranked competition for nearly a decade (blimey) and it works.

For pub matches I believe 6,7 and 8 player teams should still be doable. Maps like Waterloo could get messy but the newer maps have more space and facilitate bigger teams better (without making smaller teams less fun).

4 player teams aren’t fun at all though. It skews the power balance of the mercs. The crowd-control mercs become less useful while the ‘duel’ mercs become incredibly powerful.

(PixelTwitch) #23

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497851]in Sewer, i used all five classes. changing them if needed.

  1. stage fops/engie/medic
  2. medic/soldier/engie
  3. covert/medic/engie

plus. is there any flaw/defect if a player can choose between, lets say, 5 mercs in a round?

i mean can somebody explain “Oh, c’mon Glottis. dont be silly - if you have 5 mercs selection in a round this makes it much worse, regarding …list of flaws” ?

because i can say this about 3-mercs selection.[/QUOTE]

Well simply…

In PUBLIC matches via server browser I see the overall team composition being unpredictable and ever changing. So in this regard I do believe giving the player access to what ever he or she wants to play could be to the games benefit. It would also remove frustration of no one having a engineer for defusing or a ammo giver for instance.

However, in matchmaking my views are very different.

I believe that limiting a player to 1 Merc per round and each Merc only being able to be played by one team member you actually create MORE surprise… Especially if it was a draft mode in future with both picks and bans… Changing a teams composition would change a teams play style (providing that SD do make the Mercs more diverse and “special” in future). When it comes to “surprise tactics” after a short period of time the surprise will fade away as there will be a set ryme and reason to setups…

ie. Defending on White Chapel will result in 2xSawBones 2xThunder/Fragger and 1xKira/Skyhammer/Arty as this is both the most effective in forms of survivability of each player with 2 strong characters backed by 2 healers and a ammo giver + EV damager as good backup. In the current build… There is literally no better setup for defence on White Chapel…

Now… Imagine it was only 1 Merc per team… It would likely be something like this…

1xSawbones, 1xPhonix, 1xFragger, 1xThunder and 1xKira/Skyhammer/Arty.

The problem here is still very little has changed really… It does make it slightly more interesting to watch and it also makes it easier to commentate/cast for obvious reasons. Again, the issue is technically nothing has changed really… The setup is actually identical almost.

Now Finally… Imagine if it was drafts for BOTH rounds (so you keep the same mercs in both attack and defence)
Please before I explain this understand that there NEEDS to be at least 2 more of each class in the game before this works perfectly due to banning.

[Coin Toss… Winning team choose attack first and that gets them first pick…]
Attack Pick = Sawbones.
[Defence Pick Next 2 Mercs]
Defence Pick = Bushwacker
Defence Pick = Phonix
[Attack now Pick 1 + ban 1]
Attack Pick = Proxy
Attack Ban = Kira
[Defence Pick 1 + ban 1]
Defence Pick = Thunder
Defence Ban = Fragger
[Attack Pick 2 + Ban 1]
Attack Pick = Skyhammer
Attack Pick = Aura
Attack Ban = Stoker
[Defence Pick 1 + ban 1]
Defence Pick = Arty
Defence Ban = RedEye
[Attack Pick 1]
Attack Pick = Vasseli
[Defence Pick 1]
Defence Pick = Nader

all of a sudden…

ATTACKERS = Sawbones, Proxy, Skyhammer, Aura and Vasseli
vs
DEFENDERS = Phoenix, Bushwacker, Thunder, Arty and Nader

Now personally… I would find THAT match-up a LOT more interesting to watch then 5 Sawbones, 3 Thunders and 2 Bushwackers

(tokamak) #24

I think this concern is completely out of order under the current rules. The chance of one player in the team not possessing the required specialist is nil and the game already provides for such a possibility to be solved with a disadvantage. A disadvantage that’s offset with having a group of mercs that’s stronger in different aspect.

So yeah, we understand the weakness under the current system, but it’s an acceptable weakness for all the tactical depth it provides elsewhere. Let’s not make mountains out of molehills.

(Ashog) #25

Yeah, let’s take all tactics from the in-game to before-game, great idea. So now people will spend more time planning the chars for every round than actually playing in the first place. Next step would be turn-based strategy.

In comp, most probably limiting won’t do much since players are usually assigned 1-2 tasks per map round anyway and the serious teams stick to the positions quite strictly. Limitation is senseless. In pub, limitation is a crime. Real fun-killer. Because needing to switch to an engie (because it is planted and there is none), but being unable since you have selected a medic, fops and sniper befor the game - is a real, how krok says, cockblock. So once again, if limiting, then to 5.

(Glottis-3D) #26

i think, i’ll just plus Ashog!
oh, i already did! :slight_smile:

what PixelTwitch says is like another mod.
but with so much difference in game in one single round (2+ objects with different layouts - with close fights and longrange, with chokepoints, with reparing, with pushing, sneakplanting, defending c4, side-objectives fights etc etc) 3 mercs are not enough.

(PixelTwitch) #27

[QUOTE=Ashog;497865]Yeah, let’s take all tactics from the in-game to before-game, great idea. So now people will spend more time planning the chars for every round than actually playing in the first place. Next step would be turn-based strategy.

In comp, most probably limiting won’t do much since players are usually assigned 1-2 tasks per map round anyway and the serious teams stick to the positions quite strictly. Limitation is senseless. In pub, limitation is a crime. Real fun-killer. Because needing to switch to an engie (because it is planted and there is none), but being unable since you have selected a medic, fops and sniper befor the game - is a real, how krok says, cockblock. So once again, if limiting, then to 5.[/QUOTE]

Actually its not taking tactics from in game and moving them out (if you was referring to my previous post that is). I would actually go as far as to say that allowing multiple of the same Merc and changing of Mercs in match does not only limit the number of tactics but totally voids them out…

If defending White Chapel is most effective by using 2xSawbones, 2xThunder and 1xKira then that is what everyone will use…

If attacking on Train yard is most effective by using 1xRedeye 2xFragger and 2xSawbones… Everyone will use that setup…

Sure in a wide definition you can call these “tactics”.
However I call them over simplified meta…

Having a draft mode in competitive not only ADDS tactics to the picking stage.
It also forces people to use new and interesting tactics in game to deal with the strength and weaknesses of the characters they were able to grab.

With open possibles with team builds one teams setup forces the hand of the others.
Meaning very little moving from the current “meta”… AND even if someone does break the meta and finds a strong team comp that beats out the current meta… That simply becomes the new meta and people will no longer break away from that…

Now one thing I want to be VERY clear on…
I do understand that what elite players consider to be the best for competition on a purely SKILL based level is quite correct…
2xSawbones, 2xThunder + Field OP or Engie IS the most competitive setup currently!
Although I will likely get stick for saying this it does need to be said.
This would result in the game not being as fun to WATCH at high level and it will also lower the longevity due to the gameplay/tactical options being far to limited.

While many F2P games have been successful… Apart from TF2, you can see a correlation between complexity and longevity.

(PixelTwitch) #28

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497870]i think, i’ll just plus Ashog!
oh, i already did! :slight_smile:

what PixelTwitch says is like another mod.
but with so much difference in game in one single round (2+ objects with different layouts - with close fights and longrange, with chokepoints, with reparing, with pushing, sneakplanting, defending c4, side-objectives fights etc etc) 3 mercs are not enough.[/QUOTE]

In public I agree…

however in a match made / competitive environment there is not currently a map that cannot be completed with 5 Mercs on a team.

AMMO = 1 Merc
HEALTH = 1 Merc
DEFUSE/REPAIR = 1 Merc
HACK = 1 Merc

So even on a map like Train Yard with both Hack and Defuse/Repair

It only takes 2 Mercs…
The rest are yours to do what you like with…

Also it adds a good amount of strat to decide if you want to compose a team based on a fast attack or a long defence.

(Glottis-3D) #29

i dont think, that there is such an ideal list for any map. if there is, then mercs are clearly unbalanced, and some works need to be done in this direction.
i think the goal of SD is to provide hundreds of different but effective tactics and merc combinations so the game will feel different every single time. that will keep ppl playing the maps again and again.

(PixelTwitch) #30

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497874]i dont think, that there is such an ideal list for any map. if there is, then mercs are clearly unbalanced, and some works need to be done in this direction.
i think the goal of SD is to provide hundreds of different but effective tactics and merc combinations so the game will feel different every single time. that will keep ppl playing the maps again and again.[/QUOTE]

its physically not possible without limiting the number of mercs played…

Example…
You have around 100 weapons in Battlefield 4.
However if you ever watch a competition it will be the ACE 23 and AEK.

People always mention balance as a thing that fixes almost everything.
However it is impossible to balance something perfectly if it is different.

And if everything is balanced “perfectly” then its not actually unique because at that point it simply becomes the illusion of choice.

A more common example would be a MMO like WoW or ARPG like Diablo.
While there are thousands of gear choices and class options…

It will always come down to ONE that is used most widely.

if XT can change the world and make the first game that breaks this trend then I will eat my hat.

Its not that they do not have the ability too… Its just that in doing so you re enter the same issue from a different angle… Its a circle that cannot be broken due to design and not balance.

That is not to mention the fact that balance is hugely different when you have to balance multiple of the same class/merc.

You give sawbones instant revives so he can revive people…
1 Sawbones running from person to person giving meds and revives is one thing.
The balance however is completely different when you talk about 2 or 3 sawbones.

Kira can stop the EV once every 90seconds (I do not know the real time of her orbital strike) fine… little strong but fair enough she needs to wait.
all of a suddent 2xKiras… The EV would never move…

(Ashog) #31

Sorry but I don’t understand your vague multiparagraph argumentation. Could you please in one sentence explain why limiting the character diversity in a game would result in better tactics choices and replayability of the game?

Be laconic - we are not writing memoirs here :slight_smile:

(PixelTwitch) #32

[QUOTE=Ashog;497888]Sorry but I don’t understand your vague multiparagraph argumentation. Could you please in one sentence explain why limiting the character diversity in a game would result in better tactics choices and replayability of the game?

Be laconic - we are not writing memoirs here :)[/QUOTE]

It would force more diverse team builds that can also be influenced by the opposing teams actions during the picking phase.

(Glottis-3D) #33

that sounds like russian-roulette match-mod. where the ability to play and be efficient with every mercs is very important.

(Ashog) #34

Hmm, more diverse builds with less diverse mercs? How so?

Also, how is the opposite team’s choice of mercs going to influence your team’s choice if you don’t know what they chose until game starts? What if the enemy team starts a map with 5 fraggers? or 5 fieldops? or 5 medics? How are you going to counter that when the map starts?

Also no infamous spontaneous 5 fieldops airstrike rushes or all snipers, because it would require planning beforehand, which would mean it wasn’t spontaneous :wink:

(BAMFana) #35

I think PixelTwitch’s point is abundantly clear and difficult to argue against. I’ve previously argued for the exact same system in various discussions on this forum and I think it’s by far the best merc selection mechanic for competitive play (for public play something more casual is needed, like All Pick in Dota2). Dota 2, LoL and similar games have proven how effective it is at creating diversity in gameplay and I see no reason why it should be any different in this game. The only caveat is that there needs to be a wider selection of mercs than what is currently available for it to work properly.

I know a dev commented on it at one point, but I don’t remember which thread it was in. From what I can vaguely remember, he thought it was a good idea but was unsure if they could make it work within the current design parameters of Extraction (or something like that).

(Glottis-3D) #36

[QUOTE=BAMFana;497894] Dota 2, LoL and similar games have proven how effective it is at creating diversity in gameplay and I see no reason why it should be any different in this game.
[/QUOTE]
mb because the games are totally different?

anyway. giving less mercs only makes the game boring. because you stuck with 3 mercs, there are much more diverse situations in the game, than what i can cover with 3 mercs.

(PixelTwitch) #37

[QUOTE=BAMFana;497894]I think PixelTwitch’s point is abundantly clear and difficult to argue against. I’ve previously argued for the exact same system in various discussions on this forum and I think it’s by far the best merc selection mechanic for competitive play (for public play something more casual is needed, like All Pick in Dota2). Dota 2, LoL and similar games have proven how effective it is at creating diversity in gameplay and I see no reason why it should be any different in this game. The only caveat is that there needs to be a wider selection of mercs than what is currently available for it to work properly.

I know a dev commented on it at one point, but I don’t remember which thread it was in. From what I can vaguely remember, he thought it was a good idea but was unsure if they could make it work within the current design parameters of Extraction (or something like that).[/QUOTE]

Well the issue with number of Mercs is a mathematical one (literally)
based on pick orders and number of Mercs.

Right now I have done many a run though in my head on picking orders and banning orders and including out right now having bans.

Currently it is still possible to completely block a teams pick up of a certain role due to the limited number of mercs.

However, In theory the game would only need 7 more Mercs… Now knowing that 3 more are currently being developed (at least that what I have taken from the update videos) that would mean 4 more of the right “classes” would allow a 10 pick + 4 ban system to work if you was doing a full pick/ban draft.

it is already possible if you do team drafts (each team can overlap on Merc selection but only allow 1 of each Merc per team)
you can even add the ability for each team to ban 2 mercs and still have it to work on this system. (providing they add at least 1 more Thunder/Fragger class and buff Fletcher) In this case I would have both teams pick 2 Mercs then both team ban 2 Mercs for the other team and then each team picks final 3 mercs.
This would allow each team to pick up a sawbones and Bushwacker >.<

(PixelTwitch) #38

not at all in a team based game…

Depending on your role in the game determined by your “wants” and your teams “needs” you would have your character picked first by your team.
I would actually agree with you if it was not for the fact that the classes do not really mix up the game at all when it comes to combat (apart from snipers and shotguns obviously) and this is something that looks set to be even more of a factor if they do go ahead like planned and give Rhino and Sparks primary weapons…

Also, like Fana mentioned… Dota2, LoL, Smite, IC, Dawngate, Hon and SMNC have all used this model and have become very successful in doing so…
While doing a system like is now and as you are suggesting… I cannot really think of a successful game at all… MAYBE Tribes Ascend… MAYBE Team Fortress 2…

Now please understand that I know ET was and still is a VERY popular game. However one of the main factors towards its lack of success in recent years of eSports (in comparison to more modern games) is the ease of watching as well as the depth of playing… Making choices based on whats more “competitive” (although I disagree that these options are more competitive) can be deadly to a games success if it does not bring interesting and diverse gameplay.

Before I get lots of “OMG DIS GAME NOT MOBA DOE!!!” from lots of people on these forums… I do know that… I also know that XT as great as I feel it is… Warts and all… Will suffer greatly when it comes to gamer retention if people start to get bored of the 2xSawbones 2xThunder meta >.<

(Mustang) #39

I think it would be interesting to see how some different systems work, for example each player has only one merc picked in tandem with the other team DotA style. It might be that this doesn’t work for stopwatch, but it might work for a new gamemode. I also like that it’ll mean different line-up almost everytime, and tactical picking to prevent your enemy having their prefered picks. It’s an interesting shake-up that could be fun to watch.

Three mercs on a team of five means upto fifteen different mercs on a team and a possible two hundred and forty three different merc combinations during a match, if one of these won’t work in a given situation then either you’re not working very well as a team during the game, by not communicating efficiently, or before the game, by not making sure you had a good enough selection to cover several different eventualities. But because you could be screwed over by not having good teamwork, I would prefer if this wasn’t enforced in random public games.

All mercs is a good option on hotswap server where players don’t necessarily know each other, work as a super efficient trained team or are expected to stay for the duration of the game, that is, on traditional public server browser servers.

(PixelTwitch) #40

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497896]mb because the games are totally different?

anyway. giving less mercs only makes the game boring. because you stuck with 3 mercs, there are much more diverse situations in the game, than what i can cover with 3 mercs.[/QUOTE]

I really do like you fella from what I have seen and when we have played so please do not take what I am about to say as a personal attack…

In public I totally agree in opening up the Merc selection to everything… so totally no issues there…

But please understand just because YOU can do “MORE” with more Mercs does not mean its good for gameplay, balance or most importantly FUN.
Sure Starcraft players are out there right now wishing they could play as Zerg but also build Zealots…
CS Players out there that are on CT but wish they could buy an AK47…
Street Fighter players that are playing Honda but want Kens fireball…

and YES these are not EXTRACTION or a “SD GAME” but they are successful!

In matchmaking you would build a team based on what is put in front of you and stick to your roles or try “special tactics”.
Just because a certain Merc does not allow you to play “optimal” at points is irrelevant.
Its a TEAM game after all.

If its an objective you cannot do because of your current merc… ASSIST the merc that can…