New Medic Style Take The Fun Away?

(H0RSE) #161

I like the blurred vision, I like the choice of using that needle, I like the delay. What I don’t like is the extended distance which is clearly a console feature that has no further use on a pc. On a console it’s a damn clever idea which prevents the game from getting bogged down into doing complex stuff on a controller, just don’t treat the pc in the same way.

A little biased aren’t we? Manual revives work just fine on console - RTCW, QW, Battlefield games, etc. manual revives were not some overly difficult, cumbersome process. Yes, tey may have made it “easier” to compensate for the controller by increasing the target area (you didn’t have to aim directly on the body to revive) but it was never such a huge hurdle/problem that the whole concept needed to be redesigned.

The new revive mechanic is a win-win for players.

  • It doesn’t tie up the Medic as much
  • It lets the player decide on his own if he wants to be revived
  • It steamlines/speeds up the gameplay as a whole

Saying that it has no use on PC, without experiencing it or seeing how Brink plays for yourself, is nothing more than foolish speculation. The only thing that seems to bother you is the distance. So if everything remained the same, but instead of tossing a syringe, you had to stand over top of him and hand it to the player, would this suit your needs?I really don’t see where the added distance makes it any more easy, because it’s a give and take system.

Before, The Medic had to revive manually. The player would get up as soon as the Medic revived, he was accompanied by a few seconds on invun. time, (when the Medic would usually toss a medkit or help fight off any nearby threats) and then they would be on their way. In this method, even if the Medic died reviving the player, the player still had a chance to kill any threats on his own, since he’s an invulnerable tank for a couple seconds.

In this new system, Medics can revive from a distance - “oh my god, that’s so unbalanced!” … wait a minute. The revives aren’t instant? And they’re initiated by the downed player? So basically, Medics cannot revive from a distance - tey can only toss a syringe from a distance. And once the player gets the syringe, he doesn’t immediately stand up upon using it. Just watch gameplay videos - when the player sticks himself with the eppi-pen, he has to wait for that circle timer to fill up before he’s revived, and it takes like 2-3 seconds. This means, that anyone you toss a syringe to has a chance to die before they get to use it. This means Medics need to be much more alert and aware of threats before reviving, or be prepared to cover the player while he revives himself.

They take away the manual, instant revive, and put in its a place a ranged/downed player initiated, non-instant revive. medics still have just as much depth and tactics and strategy, they’re just focused in slightly different areas. Making sure the player gets up alive and well, is still the prime goal.

(tokamak) #162

The only thing that seems to bother you is the distance. So if everything remained the same, but instead of tossing a syringe, you had to stand over top of him and hand it to the player, would this suit your needs?I really don’t see where the added distance makes it any more easy, because it’s a give and take system.

Exactly, the only thing that bothers me is the range, everything else is great. If you can’t see why a revive over distance is easier than one at melee range then there’s no point in taking this further. It requires less situational awareness, you can basically toss it to whoever you like from safety, and totally misses the rush of diving towards a team-mate and revive him at a crucial point in an incredibly hectics situation.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the moment you at distance to the revive, the area in which a player can excel is diminished. A highly skilled player is able to pull off revives in more extreme situations than a beginner if we’re working with melee range, but when it works over a distance, that difference between a skilled and a less-skilled player is diminished. There’s less room for prestige.

(H0RSE) #163

Exactly, the only thing that bothers me is the range, everything else is great. If you can’t see why a revive over distance is easier than one at melee range then there’s no point in taking this further.

But that’s just it - there is no ranged revive (not counting optional nades.) You aren’t reviving anything. Even if you had to manually hand him the syringe, you still aren’t reviving anyone - The player chooses to revive himself. You are simply supplying the tools.

It requires less situational awareness, you can basically toss it to whoever you like from safety, and totally misses the rush of diving towards a team-mate and revive him at a crucial point in an incredibly hectics situation.
No it doesn’t. It maintains, or even requires more situational awareness. It’s not like you can just toss needles from behind cover, and players magic stand up all around you - you need to make sure they actually get the revive off. The key parts you seem to keep ignoring are

  1. The revives are not instant
  2. Players revive themselves

So now, a prime goal of Medics is making sure players are able to revive themselves, rather than the Medic doing the reviving. The “rush” is still there, just focused in slightly different areas.

A highly skilled player is able to pull off revives in more extreme situations than a beginner if we’re working with melee range, but when it works over a distance, that difference between a skilled and a less-skilled player is diminished. There’s less room for prestige.
First off, this is pure nonsense. You’re trying to tell me that if a seasoned Medic player is able to dip, duck, and dodge bullets to pull off a hectic revive, now suddenly when he has less distance to cover, he’s unable to do these things? That’s ridiculous. There are still going to be good, great and bad Medics in Brink.

And even if your philosophy held true, why is that a bad thing? Why is evening the playing field and having more evenly matched competition bad?

(Crytiqal) #164

Because dumbing things down for noobs is less enjoyable for the seasoned gamer, who do like to play games where they have to actually think their actions through before acting them out.

(H0RSE) #165

Nothing has been “dumbed down,” just changed and things still need to be thought through. Blindly tossing out needles isn’t going to benefit anyone much. Sure, they might get a little xp, but they will most likely get themselves and the downed player killed.

Another thing to point out is, Brink is not “super e1337 competition mod v2.0.” One of the big things they are boasting is how anyone, even players who don’t normally play MP or even FPS games, can play it and enjoy it. If you want to avoid playing with “noobs” (I hate that term. It’s so derogatory and misused) then only play “super elite servers.” This game isn’t being made just for you or players in your mindset - it’s being made to cater to a wide range of players. Unfortunately, that may include “noobs” as well.

(tokamak) #166

Semantics

No it doesn’t. It maintains, or even requires more situational awareness. It’s not like you can just toss needles from behind cover, and players magic stand up all around you - you need to make sure they actually get the revive off. The key parts you seem to keep ignoring are

  1. The revives are not instant
  2. Players revive themselves

I already included that in my thesis, I’m now purely talking about distanced revive and melee in Brink. I’m not comparing it to ET. In Brink it requires more situational awareness to revive from up close than it does to revive from afar.

First off, this is pure nonsense. You’re trying to tell me that if a seasoned Medic player is able to dip, duck, and dodge bullets to pull off a hectic revive, now suddenly when he has less distance to cover, he’s unable to do these things?

Not less able, less required to do that.

That’s ridiculous. There are still going to be good, great and bad Medics in Brink.

Yes but the difference in results will be smaller the longer the distance for reviving will be.

And even if your philosophy held true, why is that a bad thing? Why is evening the playing field and having more evenly matched competition bad?

It means there’s a higher fidelity in the range of skills between players, which means that battles will be more determined by the competence of the players than by the mechanics itself. You will feel more in responsible for the outcome resulting in a far more satisfying experience.

I would love to turn around the question, I already did it several times and it has to be answered. What does an increased revive range add to the game? I see what it adds to the consoles, but as what would be gained on the pc remains a mystery.

[QUOTE=H0RSE;245881]Nothing has been “dumbed down,” just changed and things still need to be thought through. Blindly tossing out needles isn’t going to benefit anyone much. Sure, they might get a little xp, but they will most likely get themselves and the downed player killed.
[/QUOTE]

An increased range only appears to not be dumbed down because the other mechanics compensate for it. Imagine W:ET or ETQW with distance revives, that certainly would dumb down the role by a lot.

(H0RSE) #167

An increased range only appears to not be dumbed down because the other mechanics compensate for it. Imagine W:ET or ETQW with distance revives, that certainly would dumb down the role by a lot.

But that’s not the case, so it’s irrelevant. Like you said, it is compensated by other mechanics - it’s a give and take approach form the old method.

(Exedore) #168

I’m hesitant to wade into this discussion, but it really has nothing to do with the console vs PC argument.

It adds variation in the mechanics, and is a great example of complexity hidden beneath accessibility. Medics work in reverse to the other classes; their buffs are close proximity, and their interactions over downed players is ranged, whereas it’s opposite for Soldiers and Operatives (Engineers as well, but they have no interactions with downed players specifically, they just hide mines under them).

We’ve certainly had it drummed home during the production of this game that preconception is a very powerful thing.

(Nail) #169

Well, the med pack throw distance was actually increased in W:ET to prevent accidental self packing, iirc you could set it quite far

(H0RSE) #170

I remember playing on servers where they would fly like 20 feet, lol.

(tokamak) #171

The mechanics do not only compensate, the revive is also more powerful compared to ET because it is a full revive. That alone would be enough to offset the rest.

I like the new mechanics, they increase the potential for skill to be displayed even further. On top of that, decreasing the range for pc would do that even more.

The only advantage it seems to have is taking an annoying bit out of console play, which is great. You pay a bit of depth in order to smooth things out for the controller. Different priorities, but for a PC all you get is compromising for the sake of what?

(ED209) #172

Hmmm more revives you say? Shame there is no Stroyent…

(H0RSE) #173

The only advantage it seems to have is taking an annoying bit out of console play, which is great. You pay a bit of depth in order to smooth things out for the controller. Different priorities, but for a PC all you get is compromising for the sake of what?

The old way worked just fine on controllers. Any “annoyances” were smoothed out by simply increasing the hitbox for needles/defibs. The new system has very little, if anything, to do with “smoothing it out for controller.” It clears up many “annoyances” that were present in the old system.

  • constantly getting revived when you didn’t want to, is ****ing annoying. The new system solves this. Not only can avoid reviving when you don’t want to, but you can choose to revive when you do - that’s something /kill or a limbo menu can’t do.

  • Running in and making a manual revive is awesome - if you enjoy playing Medic. To everyone else, it’s ****ing boring. The new system helps solve this. Just toss a syringe and be on your way. You wanna stay and make sure he gets up or you just wanna toss it and run? The choice is yours now - do what you want, it’s a game, have fun.

It isn’t about if the new system gives any distinct advantages to PC or console, it’s simply about making the game more appealing to more people - which I believe it does.

Brink is a new IP, and although a lot of the fundamental gameplay mechanics remain the same between Brink and SD’s previous games, Brink is not a sequel - it’s its own project, so in that essence, nothing needs to carry over from past games. If you really enjoy the old system, you can still go play ET and QW anytime you like. Brink is not a part of a franchise, so stop comparing it or expecting it to act like it is.

(tokamak) #174

Then I see no reason for a ranged revive.

  • constantly getting revived when you didn’t want to, is ****ing annoying. The new system solves this. Not only can avoid reviving when you don’t want to, but you can choose to revive when you do - that’s something /kill or a limbo menu can’t do.

Would you stop polluting the argument with the other mechanics? I’m fine with the other mechanics, this is nothing but a strawman.

  • Running in and making a manual revive is awesome - if you enjoy playing Medic. To everyone else, it’s ****ing boring. The new system helps solve this. Just toss a syringe and be on your way. You wanna stay and make sure he gets up or you just wanna toss it and run? The choice is yours now - do what you want, it’s a game, have fun.

There you go, simplified to appeal to the masses.

It isn’t about if the new system gives any distinct advantages to PC or console, it’s simply about making the game more appealing to more people - which I believe it does.

I didn’t say that, I said that the ranged might be more fitting for a console which then would be the only thing it would have going for. But if you disagree with that, then there’s nothing left at all anymore.

Brink is a new IP, and although a lot of the fundamental gameplay mechanics remain the same between Brink and SD’s previous games, Brink is not a sequel - it’s its own project, so in that essence, nothing needs to carry over from past games. If you really enjoy the old system, you can still go play ET and QW anytime you like. Brink is not a part of a franchise, so stop comparing it or expecting it to act like it is.

After reading this I start doubting that you’re reading my posts in full. Please read this part again:

I already included that in my thesis, I’m now purely talking about distanced revive and melee in Brink. I’m not comparing it to ET. In Brink it requires more situational awareness to revive from up close than it does to revive from afar.

I’m not comparing both games on a system by system basis, I criticise the ranged revive, this is the only part of the entire revive system that I disagree with. Everything else is great, I wouldn’t mind seeing those mechanics in ET(QW), so much for being conservative about games…

An increased range does make reviving easier, for easy situations there’s no difference, but in hectic situations a close-up revive definitely requires more skill, which made the best medics stand out of the rest of players who would be unable to do the same thing.

Yes the revive system is compensated by other limitations, but at the same time we’re also talking about full revives here, which is also a major buff to the revives, so much that it doesn’t justify increased ranged as well. I like the full-hp rebuff as it is an improvement that doesn’t simplify the medic’s role one bit.

I really hope you understand where I’m coming from as I don’t think I could bear explaining my entire point another time. I think I’ve been clear enough from the start.

(Nail) #175

Guys, it’s a First Person Shooter, not a First Person Reviver, anything that minimizes non shooting micro management is good

(tokamak) #176

That reasoning should bring us to the medic assigning revives through a minimap.

(Cankor) #177

Ahem, cough

(H0RSE) #178

Ahem, cough[/quote]

your point?

You’re quoting 2 different quotes, addressing 2 separate points. His argument was this:

I like the blurred vision, I like the choice of using that needle, I like the delay. What I don’t like is the extended distance which is clearly a console feature that has no further use on a pc. On a console it’s a damn clever idea which prevents the game from getting bogged down into doing complex stuff on a controller, just don’t treat the pc in the same way.

Which is where I responded:

Saying that it has no use on PC, without experiencing it or seeing how Brink plays for yourself, is nothing more than foolish speculation.

Seeing how we have not seen any m/kb gameplay, all he/we can do is make assumptions and speculate. Without playing Brink with PC controls, he can’t possibly prove his above statement, so what I said applies - it’s just speculation.

His second argument was not talking about PC vs console or controller vs m/kb, but rather the revive mechanic in general - something totally different:

It requires less situational awareness, you can basically toss it to whoever you like from safety, and totally misses the rush of diving towards a team-mate and revive him at a crucial point in an incredibly hectics situation.

Unlike Tok, I don’t need to see/play the game using a specific control setup to make my response…

No it doesn’t. It maintains, or even requires more situational awareness.

true.

All I need is to see enough gameplay footage, do enough research and use common sense. I have seen revives in gameplay, both from the downed player’s and the Medic’s POV. That, coupled with information on the game and feedback from people who played the game, is all one really needs to determine that just because Medic’s can toss revives now, playing them isn’t going to be a cakewalk. You pointing out 2 separate posts of mine, addressing to separate ideas, doesn’t show me contradicting myself.

One of Tok’s concerns is that, now that Medic’s don’t have to get up close and personal to revive, that it will remove the “rush” that Medic’s get from doing so. What he fails to see is that it doesn’t remove the rush, it simply removes that specific rush - it is replaced by other factors.

Instead of getting a rush from making that hectic revive, you’ll get a rush from fending off attackers and defending downed players until they either revive themselves and help out, or you clear the path so they can revive safely. You’ll get a rush from getting up close to buff teammates during hectic firefights, that essentially save their lives or turn the tide of battle. Hell, even running across the battlefield tossing out mass syringes as teammates fall, can bring a Medic that rush. You can say that “this is all speculation,” and in response, and I can only speak for myself when I say this, but when I see any Medic gameplay where the player is buffing or tossing syringes or even if the player receives a buff or revive from a Medic that I don’t even see anywhere else in the video, it gets me excited to play Medic - I don’t need any hands-on time to know that Medic isn’t going to be any more boring than it was in the past.

(tokamak) #179

Ignoring my entire post as usual then. Oh well doesn’t stop me from getting into your points:

In other words, now the effort for reviving players is diminished, the focus of the medic needs to shift to firefights in order to compensate.We can simplify all classes like this, making them all semi-automatic so all they can focus on getting a rush out of firefights.

The bottom line is that a medic no longer has to expose himself to pull of difficult revives, this levels the field for the lesser skilled medics, it reduces the skill ceiling which is a crying shame. And another point is, that all the ‘changes’ you named, do indeed improve the revive system, it does take the medic into the right direction, yet, making the revive melee-range again doesn’t detract anything from that direction. The medic will still need to stay with his ‘patient’ to ensure he gets up safely, all that is added is increased risk in difficult situations, which is what I’d like to see.

(Exedore) #180

I know the feeling!