New Medic Style Take The Fun Away?

(light_sh4v0r) #181

Hah, I was gonna say that, everyone ignored your post!

(tokamak) #182

I totally missed that one, I had no idea. :o

[QUOTE=Exedore;245888]I’m hesitant to wade into this discussion, but it really has nothing to do with the console vs PC argument.

It adds variation in the mechanics, and is a great example of complexity hidden beneath accessibility. Medics work in reverse to the other classes; their buffs are close proximity, and their interactions over downed players is ranged, whereas it’s opposite for Soldiers and Operatives (Engineers as well, but they have no interactions with downed players specifically, they just hide mines under them).

We’ve certainly had it drummed home during the production of this game that preconception is a very powerful thing.[/QUOTE]

Soldiers operate on downed players as well?

I’m not sure how comparing it to other classes is relevant here though. I can’t imagine covert ops having to make ‘emergency interrogations’ or that engineer really needing to plant that game-winning mine under a corpse. Or to take it even further, these classes probably want to be interact with the body out of sight. Where as both ET’s provided plenty of scenario’s where revives were a very important factor in the entire game. In other words the symmetry you guys try to keep going doesn’t really seem to have much practical benefit.

It’s that safety that comes with throwing a revive rather than go over there yourself to do it that seems to take a lot of pressure away from the medic. There’ll be less situations where you, as a medic will have to ask yourself if the revive will be worth the risk (or even certainty) of sacrificing yourself, while it was exactly that judgement that seperated the expert medics from the rest in the other games.

(Exedore) #183

Well that’s something I’m not going to try to convince anybody of, that’ll just have to be seen at release. Obviously, you don’t have the whole picture available, but you might still feel the same way when it is all there. /shrug

I mostly just wanted to comment on Ye Olde ‘consolification’ worries, as it honestly had nothing to do with that.

(tokamak) #184

Good, then I’m glad that it’s at least not that reason.

(LyndonL) #185

Wow, can we drop this done-to-death topic then?

(tokamak) #186

It’s a pretty unique topic, but if you rather stick to discussing female models, then you don’t have to participate.

(Nikto) #187

all has been said already i guess, ofcourse, we could probably keep finding stuff to try and talk you over, but i don’t think you’ll stop thinking it’s a bad thing before you started using it. and even then…
so i don’t think there’s a point to continue the discussion

(Qhullu) #188

it is. my preconception is that this whole thing came about because corpses can’t “tap out” so to speak. “revive griefing” doesn’t exist in W:ET (don’t know about ETQW) because you can just tap out if you don’t want to be revived. and i’m assuming this change was made mainly because of other gameplay mechanics you wanted to include (interrogation for example).

edit: the result is that while medic is by far the most interesting class to play as in W:ET. in Brink it seems to be no more interesting to play than the rest of them, maybe even a little less interesting. and i guess that is the main thing that bothers me, i haven’t seen anything in the game that seems as interesting and deep (high skill ceiling) as playing medic in W:ET is. the things i’ve seen remind me more of lt airstrikes that have become very mechanical over time, where timing/direction is based on spawn times 95% of the time, sure there are some surprising airstrikes that take out a lot of people, but they are extremely rare in games where people know what they are doing.

i’d even go as far as arguing that medic is one of the main reasons W:ET is still so popular.

(tokamak) #189

Nobody except a very few have played the game so all we can do is discuss what we’ve been given. It’s a point that can be made in absolutely every thread on this forum. Saying something is bad without having experienced is just as substantial as saying it’s good without having experienced it, nonetheless that shouldn’t stop us from talking about it.

[QUOTE=Nikto;245931]all has been said already i guess, ofcourse, we could probably keep finding stuff to try and talk you over, but i don’t think you’ll stop thinking it’s a bad thing before you started using it. and even then…
so i don’t think there’s a point to continue the discussion[/QUOTE]

I figured it was a console feature, turns out that it has something to do with class symmetry, definitely not a satisfying reason for me, but at least it holds ground on the game balance itself rather than external factors like mouse vs controller.

(LyndonL) #190

My point being you two for the last 6 pages (toka and horse) have been basically saying the same thing. The last two pages I haven’t actually read (until I saw Exedore’s 2 comments) since it’s the same thing over and over and I got bored of reading each post (War and Peace).

Neither of you will budge, yet you both try to convince eachother to by vomiting up the same points and arguments simply articulated slightly different… I unfortunately have an OCD tick that requires that I have no “unread” threads on forums I attend.

(tokamak) #191

Oh yes I kept reformulating the same points over and over again because they just didn’t get to come through to him, he kept arguing against points I didn’t make. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but at least disagree on what I say, not on what you think I say or what you want me to say.

I’m holding up my side dealing with his points, this discussion would’ve been a lot shorter and dare I say, interesting if he did the same.

(DarkangelUK) #192

The danger never came from being in the open, the danger came from the enemy knowing exactly where you were going to be, because it was the downed player that determined where the medic would be at the time… and the enemy used the downed player as a big huge arrow that says “shoot here” because it was blatantly obvious where the medic had to go to get a revive… open, hallway, stairs, round the corner… that didn’t matter, if you incap someone and don’t gib, there’s a good chance a medic is on his way to that exact spot. The medics job was made difficult from the get go due to the predictability of the enemy knowing exactly where he was going to be. It was an imbalanced mechanic from the beginning that has been reworked to bring it in-line with the rest, which I think anyone screaming for balance would agree is a good thing. There’s now a new dynamic in play that requires the attacker to work for their extra kill rather than just sit down and ‘aim here’.

I’m also curious about the Tags, what did I ask for? :confused:

(tokamak) #193

Thanks for correcting me, it’s the predictability that I prefer, I love it as a mechanic. Mainly in complicated situations as the ‘medic luring’ is less present with so much more interaction concerning incapacitated players.

You can report personal tags btw.

(.Chris.) #194

Not sure what’s unbalanced about predicting where a medic is going to be, a smart medic would at least check first before running needle/defibs in hand and going for the revive unless it was super crucial to pick up the downed player near an objective who is an engineer or so but if that was the case then why not just gib that player instead of risking it by luring a medic in whole could end up reviving the downed player leaving you in a 2 v 1 situation instead of a 1 v 1 situation and potentially losing the objective as a result.

(DarkangelUK) #195

Well there is no real prediction required, cos you know exactly where the medic is going to be… that’s my point. Now personally I’m with you, you should be checking things are clear and making sure it’s ok to go forth with the revive, but it still makes it very easy to know where a medic will be. This new way changes things to a great degree… whether it’s a good thing remains to be seen. A medic (if close enough) can throw a syringe from cover, then run out guns blazing keeping the enemy busy while his team mate revives, hopefully in time to provide help. The area still needs cleared, but this just means that on some occasions it’s done during or after the revive rather than before.

(tokamak) #196

Indeed, and it’s exactly this required judgement that is diminished by allowing to throw a needle over a distance.

But it’s no longer just the medic that requires to do this, other team-mates can jump in as well this time. It shifts the role from heroic reviving actions to ordinary shooting. It diminishes the responsibility of the medic.

Another thing I don’t like is that distanced revives no longer discriminate between bodytypes. A light bodytype has less advantage in doing emergency revives over a heavy body than when the revives would be melee. So this mechanic actually strips away a difference between bodytypes, one of the differences I was looking forward to seeing in action.

(DarkangelUK) #197

[QUOTE=tokamak;246004]
But it’s no longer just the medic that requires to do this, other team-mates can jump in as well this time. It shifts the role from heroic reviving actions to ordinary shooting. It diminishes the responsibility of the medic.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I don’t think i’m getting what you’re saying here, are you meaning that several medics could all be hidden at the sidelines throwing needles at the downed player? If so, then I don’t see how that’s any different to several medics in ET/ETQW fighting to revive a downed player as well which happened quite a bit. I get the feeling that you seem to be viewing ‘heroic’ as run and hope for the best blazing glory type revive, cos really that was the only option. A heroic medic would clear a room and revive a friend… do you only count it as heroic if he does it under fire or takes out 3 enemies before doing so? The responsibility of the medic is to revive, the same thing you’re arguing against (shooting) is what you’re saying makes him ‘heroic’, I don’t see how that’s taken away at all by adding 4ft from the player.

(tokamak) #198

What I’m saying is that in the brink the medic is only exclusively responsible for tossing that needle, it’s not specifically him who then has to take care of the player getting up. A medic can delegate this task to other team-mates.

I get the feeling that you seem to be viewing ‘heroic’ as run and hope for the best blazing glory type revive, cos really that was the only option. A heroic medic would clear a room and revive a friend… do you only count it as heroic if he does it under fire or takes out 3 enemies before doing so?

Yeah I wasn’t clear there. With a close-up revive, a good medic would know which action would be appropriate in the right situation, heroic or cautious when called for. A distanced revive can be applied more easily to different situations, and therefore requires less judgement.

I feel like the medic in Brink is not as much the field-doctor but more a grunt who happens to carry some medical supplies as well.

(DarkangelUK) #199

I think that comes down to the situation at hand and the person playing the medic rather being a general statement. It could be applied to ET/ETQW just as much as Brink, I’ve seen many occasions where the medic will just revive and bugger off and leave me to it. A dedicated medic whose worth his salt will stay with you regardless of close quarters revive or throwing a needle at me… equally I would hope my team would be covering my rise as well regardless if it’s their job or not. I’m in agreement that there’s definitely less risk to the medic this way, but I still think the responsibility lies purely with the player, and no change in game mechanic is going to stop them being a douche or a hero.

(tokamak) #200

Of course, it’s just that the need for taking such responsibility is far less.